Please post your GW stories and routines - help for a 7.5 mth spirited LO

[PJK]

Hi there:

DH and I are preparing to resume sleep training once we get back from our trip to the UK in a couple of weeks (didnt want to do it before we went just to AP while away)

Our little one will be 8 mths on April 1 and is pretty spirited as well as having had reflux which he is now medicated for.

He goes from happy to hysterical pretty fast and we had been gradually getting him to go down while sleepy rather than asleep. Then he got sick for a couple of weeks with a cold and then a respiratory virus and now we are right back to square one with rocking him to sleep.  He has been showing teething signs since he was 3.5 months old but still no teeth!!! so we intermittently have inflamed gums, red cheeks and screaming.

I know that I dont want to CIO, but he quickly escalates into screaming if you put him down and attempt to do shhh pat, so I feel like I am half way there sometimes. When we attempted pu/pd (before gradually starting the withdrawl method at after Christmas) it wound him up to screaming point quickly.

About a week ago we had a breakthrough and DH was able to rock him to sleep so we have at least been able to share the job since then even though he cries when DH puts him to bed, but he doesnt scream like he did. He even slept through from putting him down (with a W2S) at 7 till about 2 in the morning for a feed three  nights in a row. Now we are back to waking about an hour after going down again and being awak for almost a couple of hours (of rocking, walking, dancing, pleading then sleeping until 4 or 5 in the morning, nursing then sleeping again for an hour or two.. I know that he can go the distance but I would like to take the best route to teaching hiim to go to sleep independantly.

Our EAS looks like this on a Weds (as if a Spirited LO can have a typical day!)

Slept from 10pm (after two and a half hours of NW) through till 6am
E - 6am BF
S - 6 - 7.20
A - 7.20 - 8.20
E - 8.20 - BF
A - 8.20 - 10.30
S - 10.30 - 11.38 (W2S at 11.10) ten minutes rocking in his room in the dark with music on
A - chatted in crib till 12.
E - 12.10 BF
A - 12.20 - 2.40 including walk to mailbox in carrier and then walk to sleep in carrier
S - 2.40 - 3.30 (W2S at 3.15)
A - 3.30 chatted in crib till 3.45
E - 3.50 BF
A - 3.50 - 6.10 dinner, low key playtime, bath, massage, pjs
E - 6.10 5oz bottle with Dad
A - 6.25- 6.40 walking around the house, saying night night then ten minutes rocking in his room in dark
S - 6.40 - 7.39 (W2S at 7.15)
A - Woke up screaming, gave motrin, rocked.. Nursed briefly, rocked some more, switched out with Dad.... (more crying after handover...
S - 7.59 - 5am this morning...

I have been trying W2S with mixed results. It has extended most of our morning naps until an hour or hour and 10/15 long but isnt really working for the afternoon nap (OT by then?) I try and follow his cues as trying to put him down by the clock doesnt go so well and I end up rocking him for much much longer and we both get frustrated. He wakes up at 45 on the dot if the nap doesnt extend due to W2S.

I know that we have created this monster and we both really want to get him sleeping on his own. He naps in his own room but sleeps in ours at night. When we get back from our trip he is going straight in his own room at night though and we are starting sleep training the Friday night after we get back, with no other plans for the weekend.

I hope that some of you will be able to help with this and show us the way to go. Some days I feel like I cant even get him in the crib without him waking up when his body breaks contact with mine, but I know that its an ivestment that has to happen for all of us. At over 20lbs he is too heavy to keep this up and he doesnt stay still while rocking him anymore so its like trying to rock a greased piglet!!

Thank you in advance.
Pj

[jess, lukeys_mom]

Hi Pj,
Don't blame yourself too much, it is easy to get into certain cycles - especially with a spirited refluxer. I had one too - HUGS! It is not easy! (but does get better )

I am unsure though of what you are looking for from your post. I know you want to sleep train, and get back on track, but as you mentioned you want to wait a couple of weeks until after your trip to UK... What do you want now? If I were you I would continue doing what you are doing as best you can now in terms of sleep, and then cross that bridge when you are back.

Routine-wise, he might be getting OT during the days. I would fix a wake up time and try to stick to this, such as 7 am, even if it means waking him then. That will help put a little regularity into his naps and hopefully also into his eating routine. The morning nap may need to be slightly earlier so he doesn't get OT. If his afternoon nap is then short, you will probably have a little time to throw in a catnap later in the day, do you think he would go down for this? (even if in the buggy, etc)

[PJK]

Hi Jess.
Thanks for your response.
I think right now I am trying to gear myself up for a hard time sleep training and would love to hear about some other success stories and any advice that mums can give.

He usually gets up around 7 so his awake time is getting to be more consistent (regrardless of what time he goes to bed it seems)

He is eating three meals a day now too and each one is about 45 minutes after he nurses or around 4.30/5 if he doesnt take a catnap. If we can squeeze one in we do try but I am going to try and put him down at 2 hours this morning as he looks pretty tired so we shall see how it goes. So far we have only had low key play and breakfast as he doesnt look his usual spparky self (he didnt get as much sleep as usual last night either though!)

I will check back in as the day goes by, but thanks in advance for your help.
Pj

[Mashi]

Not sure if my story is along the lines of what you are looking for or not, but I had AMAZING success with GW. Breaking rocking to sleep, swaddling, and co-sleeping all in one.

Shortly after Christmas something went "off" (I still blame the ILs and Christmas Day!) and my DS started screaming at the sight of his cot and the thougth of bedtime. I'd been BWing since 3weeks old, never left him to cry, nothing at all in the slightest. One night I started what I didn't realise would be WEEKS of sleep training, but we got there!

I started out getting DS to sleep the ONLY way he would go: swaddled up, held tightly in my arms, me sitting cross-legged on my bed, bouncing up and down. Our bed now has a permanent creak to it from all of the bouncing.  He would, of course, wake when I stopped bouncing and/or tried to put him down.  I started by bouncing like mad until he was asleep. I then maneuvered him so he was in my arms but being held sort of outwards, my hand under his head, in a position where I could easily put him down. I kept bouncing through this, and it took a few tries to perfect.  I then put my cheek against his. Still bouncing I gently lowered him down, and then I would be on my knees, using my knees to bounce, while I pulled my arms out from beneath him. Put one arm quickly on the bed beside him and used it to bounce, then laid down beside him. Bouncing with my hand only now. Once sound sound sound asleep (for my DS that is from 20- 25 minutes asleep) I would pick him up and put him in his cot, or more often than not, just leave him in our bed, and DH and I would crawl quietly in at our bedtime.

That went on for maybe a week?  Naps and bedtime.  (Although for naps I generally just fell asleep beside him, and many nights my DH did tiptoe upstairs at 9pm to find me asleep and my dinner gone cold on the table!)

After a week, I started putting him down much sooner, and my bounces were much more gentle.  After another few days, I started just laying beside him, with my hand on the bed, using my hand to bounce the bed up and down. Once he was alseep, I would put my hand on his chest and gently rock it.  I got "stuck" on this one for a looooong time, maybe 10 days or so.  Then, I moved on to just using my hand on his chest, gently rocking his body until he was asleep. All of this was still being done in our bed, not his cot.

After a few weeks of this, I decided to break the swaddling. I did the same thing - put him in our bed, rocking his chest - but with one arm out of the swaddle. I did the arm closest to me so I could hold it down.  After three nights, I went with both arms out.  After a good week of this, I decided to start moving him into his cot after he was well asleep.  Every night that I did this, DS woke an hour later with one massive scream, and would not settle until taken into our bed.  DH and I loved the co-sleeping, and really wanted to continue with it, but we weren't comforable having DS upstairs in our bedroom, alone, from his bedtime until ours, so that needed to be beaten as well.

As he was afraid of his cot for some reason -- and I suspect it was that at night when he stretched out his arms, they would get between the bars of the cot, and when he moved his arm it would be stuck -- I took his mattress out of his cot and put it on the floor where it normally was. His cot was still in our room at this point.  We have sleep positioners to keep him in place, and an Angel movement monitor, so I would know if he rolled off of the mattress. I put loads of pillows on the floor next to his mattress, and I laid on those to put him to sleep. Then, if he woke in the night, or woke upset, instead of bringing HIM to OUR bed, I would go and lie on the pillows beside him until he was asleep.  The third night of this DS went to sleep with nothing other than holding my finger, and slept soundly through the night!!     After a week or so, DH and I decided to claim our bedroom back and move DS down into his own bedroom. I did the mattress up where his cot would go, and did the same thing. He didn't notice any difference at all. After three nights of this, I put his cot up (with a new cot bumper!) and he went in it, slept all night, no problems!

After about a week of that, we decided that we had chosen the wrong bedroom in the house for DS (argh) and it ws too noisy from street noise, especially from 11pm - 2am on Friday and Saturday nights!  So, we decided to move his bedroom to the spare room.  DS was in his exersaucer playing in the spare room when we carried his cot in, and he squealed with delight and started laughing and jumping when we carried it in -- like he KNEW that it was his bed, and that it meant he would be sleeping in his playroom from now on!!!!! Amazing!

Now, we carry him up, unswaddled, put him in his cot, he turns his head and goes to sleep, and sleeps all night! (ok, yes, some nights we have unexplained NWs but not abnormal ones!)

So I know that is not dealing with EXACTLY what you have said, but it was amazing success with the GW method. I will tell you that my DS did not shed a single tear out of the entire process.  OK, **I** did, as there were nights when I just could NOT do it anymore (I did ALL of the naps bedtimes for two months, keeping DH OUT of it to ensure consistency in the withdrawl, which meant that I did about 400 sleeps all on my own) but I stuck with it, and managed to break loads of bad habits all at once, gently, and in a way that I felt was "right" for my LO. 

It meant that we couldn't go out in the evenings at all, even once DS was asleep, because MIL wouldn't go into our bedroom in the pitch black and lie beside him, nor could she lie down on some pillows and hold his finger while he slept.  Lots of my friends chastised me for it (has severely ruined a friendship) because they thought I was crazy for doing what I was doing, didn't understand why DH and I wouldn't go out for a Friday evening with them, etc (their LO is the same age, they do controlled crying and don't give a toss if it is grandma, an aunt, a cousin, etc doing it for them).  BUT what has happened now has been soooo worth it, and DH and I love tiptoeing in before we go to bed to see DS sprawled out in his cot, in his growbag, sound asleep CONTENTLY.   

If you are going to start with the GW method, I would be sure that, as with anything else, you have the time and patience to see it through. It may take a month, maybe two (took me 9 weeks). You may have to be creative on what the next "step" is (ie/ putting the mattress on the floor) but if you stick with it, you can have some amazing results!

I hope that was some help, and good luck!

[A pair of Charlies]

Hi

Will post back tomorrow with the GW I did. Pretty much like Mashi, took ours in small steps to undo a lot of my APg and his prop-dependency on me and then I did a 2 week more intensive GW which involved a bit of crying but nothing horrendous. After the 2 weeks, I could leave him in his bed to go to sleep (just occasionally reassuring him with my voice). Whole thing took a good few months all in.

Back tomorrow,

Charlotte

[PJK]

Hi ladies.
Today has been a really mixed bag. I put him down after two hours this morning and he slept for an hour and ten minutes (yay) then put him down after  two and a half for the next nap but woke him up with my W2S at 35 minutes, then after two and half hours down again, but he woke up after 35 minutes when I turned on the white noise machine (sigh) i was really hoping that we would get over some of his OT problem but it doesnt seem that today was the day

This evening he went down ok for at 7 then of course woke up again exactly 45 minutes after crying. I picked him up and rocked him back to sleep (at least this was gentle dancing instead of the violent bouncing that we used to have to do.) He woke up as soon as I put him down in his bed. (
When this happens I immediately duck below his eyeline, commando style and cross everything that he will go back to sleep. Of course he doesnt and then cries, which usually turns into a scream as I am crouching next to his bed wondering how the heck or when he is ever going to learn to self soothe. Everything that I have read says that you should allow him to try and self soothe but I feel like allowing him to cry when he wakes up like this is just eroding the already fragile trust that he has in me (I havent let him cry it for more than a couple of minutes and its not constant crying, there are pauses of silence)

Before he got sick he used to be able to get off to sleep at least some of the time. On days like this I wonder if he will ever do it again.

I have to figure out how to consistently get him off me and into his crib. Its hard enough to get him in the crib with it where its set now. I know its going  to be nearly impossible soon as he can almost sit up on his own and once sat up he can pull himself up so we will need to lower the mattress to a safer level.

I know that this isnt the most positive post but reading that you have both had success gives me hope that we will be able to figure this out. I am grateful that DH can at least get him to sleep now, even though there are often tears while it happens. I wonder if I am just being impatient and not giving him enough time to be asleep before trying to put him down, but I always do the limp limb test first and he doesnt stir so much when DH puts him down unless he has already had a couple of unsuccessful attempts first. I guess I may have to go back to square one and rebuild his trust with before we can move forward. What do you think?

Thanks for listening ladies. I appreciate your giving me somewhere to vent a little and ask for help with this.

Pj

[A pair of Charlies]

Quickly grabbing a few mins to post while DH catches up on Lost (which leaves me so Lost I can't follow it  ).

Here's what we did. First of all, I very very very gradually started doing less and less of the things to get him to sleep. So, say when he was holding my hand to go to sleep, I gradually started removing my hand a little before he dropped off to sleep. Yep, he'd protest a little but I kept going, very gently. Shhing or something else. Went on like this for a while to get from me lying next to him with my arms through the bars literally stroking and holding him to sleep, to him sleeping with me next to him or my hand on his chest.

Then moved him into his own room (he had been in a crib next to my bed up until 7 months). In this move, I moved to his room with him. I put a douvet folded up on the floor and then another to wrap myself in. Lay next to him for all naps and through the night for the first day. I just did whatever it was we were currently doing to help him to sleep (hand on chest or something).

For the next day, I stayed with him while we fell asleep for naps, then left. Again at night, I stayed with him until he fell asleep initially, then when I turned in I went and slept in his room, gave DF and curled up on his floor to sleep so that any NWs he knew I was there.

I slept on his floor for a week. After the first few days I did go back to my own bed for a few hours, but once he'd had NW I stayed with him. During this time, I tried to do less and less to help him to sleep. So eventually, it was just my being there that was the prop. With milestones such as standing (all the time during the night) and teething and rotten coughs and colds, GW didn't progress much for a while. He was always going into bed awake though. Always.

Then I found a 2 week GW plan and we commited to putting it in place over the Xmas break while we were both off. It went like this:
 * I honed down my bedtime routine so that it was always always the same. Tidy away toys, upstairs for play while I run the bath, bath and then a 20 / 30 min WD routine of teeth brushing, drying off, putting on PJs, story, (music now starts & light set to dim on timer), BF then into bed ending with Good nights and prayer.

 * Days 1, 2 & 3: I stayed next to DS as he went to sleep. I didn't make up a bed on the floor. I sat next to him on the floor, said 'time to sleep now'. And stayed there until he went to sleep. If you've got a chair there, sit in that. I think the crying went on for almost an hour the first night, on and off. Heartbreaking but I was there the whole time and comforting him. Just not the way he was used to going to sleep. So, he'd cry cry cry (standing  ). I would comfort by soothing him with my voice, stroking his cheek briefly but I didn't pick up - up to you though, just be consistent in putting them back in bed awake.

With my DS, my main trouble was that he would stand up the whole time. So I would keep patting his mattress where his head should be, saying 'lie down'. I used to lay down on the floor next to him previously so I was confident that he knew what he should do.

So he would cry cry cry. I would stick to key phrases 'lie down' and 'time to sleep' and say nothing else. Sometimes I would say nothing for a track or 2 of his music, so it was quiet. I was there, next to him. Reassuring, just not talking (because that isn't what you do when you're trying to sleep).

Over the first few nights, I moved a little away from his crib. Only tiny amounts as the evening drew on, but by the end of the first phase, I was in the middle of his room (it's a small room) sitting on the floor. I would still crawl forward to pat his mattress and say lie down. When he lay down, I would comfort him (stroke his head a few times) and plenty of praise (good boy, clever boy) and then 'time to sleep', sneakily and gently moving back a little to my base (point in the room where I thought I should be).

Right, then was on to the next few nights. BTW, the crying was lasting less and less by this point and he was lying down more frequently and with less fuss.

 * Days 4, 5 & 6: Did pretty much the same as before, but tried to speak less and less, leave it longer until I patted his mattress to encourage him to lie down and over these 3 days I moved closer and closer to his door until I was pretty much there by day 6.

 * Days 7, 8, 9: Sat by the door (make sure that they can still see you). At this point I tried to do even less talking. My aim was to be saying and doing nothing at all, but reassuring him by my being there but caved and continued to talk to him (key phrases over and over) but waiting 4 mins or so between saying anything sometimes. By day 9, I was sat in the doorway (on the other side of the door but where he could still see part of me from where he was).

 * Days 10, 11 & 12: the plan was to be leaving him in the room awake at this point and only coming back if he cried. But didn't seem right for me at the time - he still seemed to need reassurance. So I sat on the other side of the door, popping my head around the door now and again to reassure him that I was there, repeating my phrases now and then. Leaving once he was asleep.

 * Days 13 onwards: I would put him down to sleep in his bed following his routine, say good-night and leave. I'd leave the door fairly ajar, so he could see light and I could bob my head around it if needed. I'd do a few chores upstairs while he settled - folding washing etc in another room. Every now and then, I'd go to his door and say my 'lie down' (if I thought he was standing) or 'time to sleep'. Would usually settle within 10 mins, and usually wasn't crying so much as blowing raspberries etc, grizzling towards the end (when I'd reassure that I was still around).

We did great with that for a while then he regressed when he got ill. Wouldn't go to sleep and I ended up having to sit on the other side of his door for 20 mins a night while he cried out on and off. Sticking to your guns is pretty key.

Recently, he's got fantastic at this. I leave him in the room, door ajar and he'll babble away having a crib party until he goes to sleep. I've heard it all go quiet a few times and bobbed in to check on him / shut the door a few times only to find him lying there, eyes open patiently waiting to go to sleep!! Hurrah for Charles!!

If he woke in the night: I would do the usual to resettle him (meds, comfort, sip of water, etc) then would slowly leave the room when I was sure he had what he needed. I would sit on the other side of the door, bobbing my head around it when needed. This took a lot longer to work - and still is an issue for us now from time to time when he wakes. I ended up sleeping on the landing floor many many many times (v. uncomfortable) as was sat there so long saying 'time to sleep' etc that we'd both eventually fall asleep. And he'd wake crying not long after to go through it all again.

But as time has gone on, that has got better. Colds, conjunctivitis, coughs, teething haven't helped with this.

What else?

Erm...... up until day 13, I left only once he was asleep. I worked on making his room friendly and familiar. So I'd let him play in there more in the day (but I won't keep toys in there) and really explore it so that he knew it, was comfortable and confident there and felt he 'owned' it. I made sure that it was light enough for him to see in there when he woke, in case he was scared. So a nightlight (I have a groegg thermometer that's a light too). I also put a little extra heater in there so that when our heating goes off, the little one comes on and keeps the room temp consistent all through the night. Just so I could rule out cold as a reason for his waking really.

I leave the door ajar while he nods off, and I keep a little light on in our bedroom (so there's light outside his room too).

HTH. Any questions, just let me know. Apologies it's so long. Wasn't sure how much detail you needed. 

Charlotte

 *



.....urgghhhh got to go. Will update and finish this tomorrow. May even get the chance to edit out the waffle!!

Will look over your EASY too when I get the chance.

Continuued...

[PJK]

Wow. Your routine sounds like it was great for your LO.
Thank you both for taking the time to reply. I really am grateful. This is my update for the day...

Today he has been going down easier (rocking for less time and with much less resistance) He even put his head on my shoulder and snuggled (its been so long since he has done that!) It makes me sad to realise that he was probably even more OT than I had thought I have been keeping his activity a little more low key and going with 2.5 hour A time.  His naps havent really gotten longer but hopefully that will come if we can keep going with this trend. I have also noticed that the instances of me having to pick him back up because he has woken as I put him in the crib have gotten less today. I stumbled across a gem yesterday and if I can get him in the crib on his side and keep my hands on him for a few minutes he is less likely to jerk awake and try and climb back up my arms!

Every night we have a NW between 45 minutes and 75 minutes and then possibly another one an hour later if he goes down fairly quickly at the first one. Yesterday and today he went down after only ten minutes rather than the two hours that it has taken recently. As small as they are I have recently been reminded that every victory is precious and if we have to go back to very basics for DS to be comfortable then thats what we will do and hopefully we can reduce the amount of *asleep* he is before I put him down until we get back to putting him down sleepy and take it from there.

I know that this is going to be a long road but lettting him cry feels so wrong and I know that both sshhh pat and pu/pu just end in screaming. The big thing for me right now is trying to get it right when he cries out so that he is getting an opportunity to self soothe without feeling that I am not there for him.

How did you all deal with that? Was it challenging for you to distinguish or is it just me? I am afraid that his trust in me to be there for him is so fragile that I dont want to push it but I still want to give him a chance to go back to sleep (even though it seems that it will never happen sometimes) on his own.

Ok, better try and get something done this evening. I need to pack as we leave for the UK at the weekend and I am trying hard not to get worked up about the flights and all the changes in our little guys environment. Thankfully we upgraded his car seat to a Britax Marathon which seems to have helped with his car seat aversion

Thanks for giving me somewhere to vent and ask for advice. I really am very grateful for your time and energy.

Pj

[A pair of Charlies]

Posted my full GW plan above in my previous post...

I think it sounds like you're doing really well.

I wasn't a fan of his crying which is why I worked on really delicate gradual withdrawl initially until I felt he could lie down to sleep without much assistance from me and that it was just my presence that he was relying on. If that's what you're aiming for, then sounds like you're making great progress.

When we did GW a little more aggressively (the 14 day plan I had), the crying was initially hard. I'd recommend buddying up with DH. So pick a time limit for yourselves that you can cope with, then they come and take over at that time if needed. Say 20 mins after bedtime and still crying, DH comes up (already arranged) and swaps with you, doing the exact same thing. You go take a break, recharge. If another 20 mins passes and still crying, you swap with DH again. And so on. Really helped us in the first few days.

I guess what's important to remember is that they are crying because this isn't what they are used to. By not caving in, you are making it clear to them that this new way is okay, not to be frightened, and not going to change. Consistency or they get confused and the effort (their's and your's) is for nothing. By being in the room, initially right next to them offering physical and verbal comfort as needed, you are reassuring them. And that shouldn't break their trust.

How does that all sound so far to you? Do you feel you've got ideas from us that you can work with? Do you feel supported (here and IRL)?

Hugs

Charlotte

[PJK]

Hi ladies
I thought that I would give you an update as to where we are with ur LO and his independant sleep.

We got back from our trip mid April and put him straight in his own room. This went really well with only a few nights of me sleeping on the floor in his room to be able to respond to quickly to his night waking cries. His NW reduced to only one per night after 7 hours of sleep and I continued to nurse him at this one ( I know a lot of people say that he should be sleeping on his own all night but this was as much about keeping my supply up as well as comfort for him)

After two back to back colds and a tooth popping through we finally started gradual shh/pat (or our own version which is shh jiggle/hold) this past weekend. We are putting him in the crib when his eyes close as putting hiim down more awake than this doesnt work. His eyes always open as soon as he is in teh crib but at least we know that he is pretty sleepy at this point. The first couple of days went pretty well with him falling asleep after 10-25 minutes.Day three everything started going a bit pear shaped though and I have found that with the correct amount of A time (between 2 hrs 15b and 2 hrs 45 depending on level of activity) he will go down fairly well for the first nap but the second one is a struggle. We have managed to extend his naps from 45 minutes to 1 hr and 10 minutes in the morning though which is wonderful but it seems that the better the nap in the morning, the shorter the one in the afternoon. He has never been a great napper but decreasing his nap in the am from 45 to 30 is frustrating. I dont have anyone to switch off with in the daytime so the day naps are down to me but DH is helping at night. I will be glad when it gets better as my ribs are black and blue from the crib rail

Charlotte, I read in one of your old posts that Charles did this though and your posts always make a lot of sense to me so I was consoled a little that it wasnt just my little guy.

Now that he is sleeping better for the am nap he goes longer before the pm nap but on the days that he has taken forever to go down for this he has ended up with well over 4 hours A time (and plenty of deep breaths from me) but has slept through the 30 minute mark and got an extra 10 or 15 minutes.

Since we started sleep training he has woken up a couple of times in the first couple of hours and we have had mixed success with getting him back to sleep. One one night we were able to shh pat but on the others it just made him cry more urgently so we picked him up, calmed him down and started over. He is settling himself more in the night now at most wake ups. The in the middle of the night is a different kind of wakeup - full on " I need you".  He has been standing up and surfing the inside of the crib for a few weeks now and while this means he may not go back to sleep because he is working his new skills, he is also much happier to be left in there on his own.

I am happy to keep the night feed until he is eating more solids (we are now doing a sort of BLW since the spoon strike a few weeks ago!) and his nursing is not as great as I would like as he is so much more interested in everything else. I try and nurse as soon as he wakes up from a nap in his room with the lights off and the door closed but even that doesnt help sometimes.

I am really grateful for all your help and advice ladies and while I know that this isnt going to be a quick or easy fix, its going ok and I am confident that we will be able to get to independant sleep without letting him CIO or hopefully too many hysterical moments. At 9.5 months we are a bit behind the curve, but I keep telling myself that it will all work out the way its supposed to if we keep proving him with the tools and the right environment. (of course we are moving cross country in about 5 weeks so if we could be all done before then it would be great!)

I hope to hear from you soon and look would be grateful for any pointers that you could give us.

Pj

[A pair of Charlies]

I am so delighted to read your fantastic news!! Have thought of you often and wondered how it was going. So happy to hear you so positive and you really seem like you feel in control now, rather than feeling controlled. So so happy!! 

On the naps front, the only pointer that I have is that you may be heading towards the 2-1 nap transition. While the switch to just one nap a day may be many many many months off, the transition can start earlier. Charles started at 9 months. I've included some links for you below to more info, so you can see if you think it sounds like what's happening... and I'll share our experience so far.

Charles started doing difficult naps at 9 months ish after a really peachy period of everything just working out fine in the day. Hurrumph. His morning nap would be great, as would the A time, but then he just wouldn't go down for his pm nap until too late to get a long nap in. It would always end up being so late that I had to either cut his nap short or try to put him down for bed after a short A time, which wasn't a goer either.

I didn't know what I was doing, and by the time I realised (accepted more than realised) it was the start of the switch, the OT UT cycle began. A nightmare once it gets going. So DS would get too much sleep during the day so that he was UT to sleep through the night initially, so we'd get wakeful NWS...by the time he was resettled and back to sleep, it was time to get up so that first A time would be short as he'd keep falling asleep. I'd feel bad for him and give him a long nap, and becuase he was still OT from the night, another good nap but after a long A time, then the short A before bed meant UT and so it went everyday. And it didn't seem to matter what I did. A long am A time or a shorter one - if that AM nap wasn't long enough he was a tired mess, but if long nap he wouldn't settle again until late afternoon. 

I tried loads of things - so hard when everyday wake up is at a different time. For a while it was around 5 am. I put him on long am naps and short pm naps for several days and that seemed to help get him through the day. We had a bout of OT evenings then, so I had to up the pm nap a little and delay bedtime.

Eventually we got to a point where I felt he was caught up on sleep and I just dropped his am nap time down to an hour. I reduced the next A time a little for the pm nap and after a fair few days we were getting a long pm nap. Finally the NWs stopped and STTN came back. A few weeks later / a month and the same thing started again. So I dropped the am nap again, to 45 mins. Now we're currently dropping to 30 mins am after a 4 hr A time in order to get a long pm nap that ends by 4pm latest.

I've rambled and probably made no sense. I think with the 2-1 transition, people go with 1 long nap and 1 short. Generally aiming for a short am to avoid LOs using the am nap as part of night sleep (a little sneaky catchup sleep). But I know this hasn't worked for everyone and that there are a few Mamas who've gone with long am A times, a long am nap then a long PM A and a short pm nap. Got to find what works for you. A short A follows a short nap.

So I think you might be getting towards the 2-1 transition territory. Here's the info I mentioned:
 * http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=95670.0
 * http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=41952.0
 * http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=145344.0

HTH and sorry for rambling on and on and on 

Charlotte

[PJK]

Thank you so much for your response Charlotte It was wonderful to read that you think I am doing well after the past couple of days with what seems like complete regression. Yesterday it took an hour each time to get him down for his naps and today was even worse. DH and I were switching off today and it took 2 hours to get him to go down and just as I was about to pick him up he fell asleep, but only for 25 minutes. This afternoon was an hour to get him down (started wd at only two hours of A time due to such a short nap and long a time this morning) but he was awake after only twenty minutes. After three and a half hours of A time this evening (half an hour of this was trying to put him down) he went down easier but then after an hour and ten minutes he was awake (this is his new usual nap length in the morning)

DH is back upstairs with him trying to get him to sleep but it seems that now he is getting over tired. He is definitely very combative and fighting sleep like you wouldnt believe and he has been awake for almost two hours now. How long is regression supposed to last because if its going to be like this for days I dont know if I will be able to stick to it

It does sound like we are starting the slippery slope towards transition doesnt it? I never really had great long naps but have enjoyed his recent sleepful nights. I guess the fact that he was only waking once per night was allowing him to get most of what he needed at night which pushed his naps off even more (sigh)

If he is getting OT when sleep training do you AP to make sure that you dont get behind the curve?? I am so paranoid about him getting OT as it took me weeks to get past the last attack and life is much easier when he is rested.

Better go so that I can switch off with DH.

Thanks for thinking of me and for all your great advice. Your posts are really helpful as I think Connor is a lot like Charles!

PJ

[A pair of Charlies]

Just wondering how you are getting on? Hope everything's okay. 

Charlotte

[PJK]

Hi Charlotte.

Thanks for thinking of me Things have progressed pretty well. (slower than I had hoped, but at least they are moving forward and I keep reminding myself that we have a very important goal in sight) I posted on a different thread in the naps forum and have been chatting back and forth with Vikki, Dylan's mom.

We seem to have finally dialed in the A times and its getting better slowly. DS has his second tooth coming through and has been a bit more cranky recently so I have been taking it slowly and putting him in his crib when his eyes close. The time taken between slow dancing to two songs in our bedroom and putting him down in his crib in his rooom has gone down considerably. So much so that its hard for me to get him in his crib before he has fallen asleep to the point that  he doesnt open his eyes when he is put down. Im not complaining as I know that this signafies a positive result Its so dark in his room that I have to go on his body limpness and then I roll him off my shoulder, still softly jiggling or ssshhing and then put him on his side in the crib. From there I keep my hands on him until he stops twitching.

Once we calm down a little from tooth #2 I will get more aggressive with putting him down more awake but I am hopeful that it will go ok as he has been self soothing more when he wakes at night and last night self soothed to sleep when he woke up after our dog barking her head off at 10.30. DH did ssshhh pat and then left the room as he was frustrated with DS who kept rolling to all fours and then getting up

Once in a while (each night) DS will cry out roll over and then go back to sleep so I am wondering if this is at the end of each sleep cycle. We have removed the sleep positioner from his crib so he can roll over on his own now and has taken to sleeping on his stomach.
Oh and he even slept through last night after the NW without nursing until 6.45 this morning!!

This morning Ds fell asleep in the car on the way back from the store, then woke up briefly on the way into the house but then slept for 1.5 hours. Compared to our usual 35 and 45 minute naps this is wonderful. If we can continue this way, we should have a good routine in place when we move next month. Having something solid to come back to will hopefully make it easier to get back on track when we are settled after the move.

How about you? Have you made the 2-1 transition yet?

Thanks again for checking back in with me. I know that Im not moving as quickly as other mums but this is so much better than it has been for us and we are making progress with his independant sleep, albeit slowly.

[A pair of Charlies]

Hey!!! Don't worry about how long it takes you / the speed... it took me a long long time initially. We took lots and lots and lots of tiny baby steps until we were at a point where he would lie down in his cot awake, go off to sleep without me doing much at all and I felt that I didn't need to be there to help him to sleep anymore. That's when I moved to a 14 day ish plan, which helped me because I had it clear in my head that 4 days of this, 4 days of y as I moved closer to the door and further from his cot.

The speed to go at is the speed that is right for you and your LO. And no one else can really judge that as well as you can.

I am so so happy to hear things are going well. Really pleased. 

As for us, still ticking along the rocky road of 2 naps to 1. So far today all he took was a 40 min am nap... and would not settle all afternoon for another one, even though he was beyond tired. Thinking of just pushing him towards 1 nap now, as we have too many days where all afternoon is spent putting him down, getting him up, and putting him down again, then giving up and trying to get him to bed early instead... I've been trying to give him a 20 min am nap, but somedays he just will not wake up.  Hey ho, it's just a phase.

Hope everything goes well and remember to holler if you need anything.

Charlotte