Started trying to drop the nightfeed - update

[*Carrie*]

Hi, need to be quick so having to think out loud here. Sorry if it is garbled!

So, 4 month old moving onto 4 hour easy and feeding better during the day because of it. Had been having erratic nights, feeding 1.30 and 5.10 one night, feeding 2.30 or 3.30 the next then STTN the next. Seemed to be on a sort of cycle and we were getting STTN every three nights or so - I had thought that meant we would be moving towards doing it consistently soon. Not so - instead we've moved towards feeding once every night between 2 and 3. Unfortunately I think that has become a habit and now he is waking and having trouble getting back to sleep so expecting a feed... I noticed he was changing his behaviour in that before he would fall asleep whilst taking the first side and would continue sleeping through winding and having the second (good swallowing after let down) then he would sleep on once put back to bed (and a few times he had eyes open but just settled himself on being put back to bed)... this changed to seeming to become more awake as the feed progressed and the night before last he ended up having a party in his cot for almost an hour after a half hour feed - he never needed help as he was just grumbling and fussing but DH and I were awake the whole time hearing him and wondering what was going to happen...

Anyway, instincts have been telling me he doesn't need a feed then just help to get back to sleep so last night having left him grumbling and fussing for 40 mins at the usual wake up time I decided to try not feeding but assisting sleep instead... he did go back to sleep and slept until 6.20am so proof I think that that feed is not necessary.... would you agree?

So here's where I need the help - what would the plan be from here on in?

Last night I lifted him because I remember reading often a breastfed baby needs to be held when trying to eliminate the feed.

So I lifted him, spoke gently and used a poem that i use as a sleep cue. He did calm and start to relax. Then I gave him my knuckle to suck (he had a dummy when very little but rejected it big style yet hasn't found any other way of soothing - he has calmed with my knuckle once or twice before but I've shyed away from using it as I don't want to be a prop - as it stands I think I am already a prop at this time of night so...?) Once he was relaxed and sucking I laid him back down - in doing so I inadvertently broke the sucking and he cried a little but calmed when my knuckle was back in - I stayed with him another 10 mins or so and gradually he sucked less then kind of pushed it out. Once I had gone we didn't hear from him again until 6.20...

So, would anyone suggest I just go for the same tonight?? Leave him for a while when he first wakes until he starts really getting agitated then lift, soothe, allow to suck... and just hope he needs less help as the nights go on?? maybe try a dummy again (although i don't want to get stuck having to go in EVeRY night to give  a dummy..)

Or anyone suggest trying the w2s method - i.e going in around 1am to stir him and hope that changes his sleep pattern?

Or maybe moving the dreamfeed time (he's been waking for that so have had to move that from 11pm to before 10.15pm)

I could really use some help before tonight because I seriously need help to form a plan.

I've been using w2s during naptime to try to extend past 45 mins and having mixed success. When it has gone wrong I've started PU/PD but have never had any success yet as it's gone on longer than naptime in the end (consequently I hate it and feel worried about continuing to use it) LO settles easily for most naps and bedtimes using a little shush pat...
We're getting closer to a 4 hour EASY but not quite there yet....

Sorry this is so long and I'll really appreciate if anyone can advise me before tonight ...

[firsttimemummy]

Not sure if this is much help (my brain is too scrambled to fully process your full message, sorry!) but I dropped the dreamfeed as DS was waking at some point in the night anyway for a feed (regardless of if/when I dreamfed) so I just stopped and waited for him to wake naturally for the feed.  I found that if I left him for a while to see if he settled down again (cry stopping and not accelerating in volume or calming down between cries) he often got back to sleep himself.

Now he usually goes to bed 6.30-7pm with a feed then that is him until 5-6.30am when I feed him and he goes back to sleep until 7.30-8.30am (I tried getting him up at 6.30 one day but he still needed sleep).  So, even though the dreamfeed has gone he technically still does waken for a feed, I suppose.

How does DS get to sleep during day/bedtime - I assume you don't need to give him your fist each time?  DS still has a dummy but it seems to work for him (fill his cot with lots so he can always find one).

Don't get too stressed about the dreamfeed ... at least you get some nights where he sleeps all night.  Some babies feed lots one day and less the other so maybe that is why he has good/bad nights?

[*Carrie*]

Yeah. sorry for the length of the post -i'm not surprised it was hard to read.

We haven't had a sttn for over a week and we were getting them every three days or so before...

DS2 goes to sleep pretty well with a reassuring hand on the shoulder and some pats while white noise plays...

Just had a failed nap - he seemed to be drifting off fine and I left him to it but he woke at 20mins (!) and half an hour of shush pat/ pu/pd has failed entirely. Now hoping to put him down again soon... yuck! (he does have a cough and cold so maybe he's having trouble due to that...)

He's actually waking in anticipation of the df so dropping that probably won't help but thank you anyway x

Any ideas for a plan of attack for tonight anyone??

[jess, lukeys_mom]

Hi Carrie,

I only skimmed your post - sorry at work. We've been in a pretty similar boat with Dylan and are starting to have success with cutting down night feeds. I am not sure what you mean by a plan of attack though... do you mean what method you should try? You mentioned you've been doing PU/PD - have you been successful with it overall? If so this may really be the best for you. Also, are you planning on cutting out night feeds 100% or are you doing a dream feed?

If it helps, what we are doing with Dylan (though I could never have done this with my touchy/spirited Luke so it really depends on the baby):

- When he cries, wait 1-2 minutes, going in if it is escalating and not if it is getting smaller (Dylan does regularly resettle himself though so depends on the baby)
- Pick him up right away and try to cuddle him. Usually what happens is that he screams and winges and arches his back. I have learned very well that this means he is tired, and I will not stand there fighting him. (When he doesn't do this, I feed him, but usually that's once at about 5 am+)
- Put him back in his bed on his side (this helps him remember to suck his thumb again)
- Sit down on a chair right at the side of his crib and just stay silent. Often he cries another minute or so then starts sucking and drifts off. If he rolls back onto his back I rub his tummy gently clockwise.
- When he doesn't I wait a couple of minutes and start over.

We just started this a few nights ago and it has rarely taken longer than 15 minutes. In the middle of the night he seems to scream harder and it takes longer, but that might be because the whole house is silent and we're so tired.

HTH? I'm going to move your post over to NW's

[*Carrie*]

Thanks Jess - yes I meaning how should I approach tonigh? I guess I'm wondering if I should be doing w2s and sort of being proactive or just wait until he wakes and asks for help... the thing is I was responding to feed him in that zone when he was stirring and not waiting for a cry! I know that's a bad habit but when he was little I was expecting him to need a feed and Rory had been having nightwakings so I was trying to avoid waking him!

He has resettled himself without any intervention from time to time so I guess I do leave him for a little bit. Last night he grumbled low level for over 40 mins before starting to escalate and the night before (fter the feed) he did it for an hour then went to sleep himself... I guess it just seems an awful long time and although we are not up helping him it does affect our sleep....

I woudn't mind about this feed if I felt he was feeding well and it was done and dusted within 30 mins (which was the scenario until recently). It's because things have changed - like he doesn't seem to need both sides, it seems to be rousing him rather than helping him and he has suddenly had problems getting back to sleep...

Thanks for the move - hoping someone has had similar experience and had success....

[*Carrie*]

yes I was panicking!!! Turns out last night was one of the best for a while - he didn't wake for his df and then didn't rouse until 4.45. When I lifted him he started rooting so I fed him then he went straight back down - no parties in the cot last night thank goodness... hoping for similar tonight although he's getting his jabs today...

[jess, lukeys_mom]

great! i hope it continues to go well, despite the jabs...
i had the same night - also with the 4.45 feed i hear from sherry lynn's dh it's a new moon

[Lolly]

Sounds like a really good night! We are thinking it's time to drop the night feed but didn't have the good night you did. She woke at 3.30, after an hour of trying to re-settle I caved and fed her, she drained a 7oz bottle , guess she was hungry then .

My problem is that she very, very rarely actually lets us know she is hungry which makes it hard to know if she needs a feed or just thinks it's playtime. She is quite happy messing around in her cot which wakes us, I can't do PU/PD because she doesn't cry, she is just awake. Our very screwy EASY probably isn't helping either. We have a day at home to get some better naps today so hopefully she'll stay asleep tonight.

Hope the jabs don't upset him too much!

Laura