Author Topic: 14 mo old in OT cycle...Need Routine Tweak  (Read 2556 times)

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Offline janecharlotte

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Re: 14 mo old in OT cycle...Need Routine Tweak
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2010, 21:36:06 pm »
Hey,

Have you tried GW at all? Sounds like we are going through something very similar. It's like the trust has been broken. GW worked for us 6 months ago when DD started resisting bedtime.

We are using it again as she is stuck in an OT cycle and WI/WO seems to make things worse. In fact I just did it with her as she woke at 5.20am and it is now 9.30am and she is back in bed.

I like GW because the crying is doing my head in and for us there seems to be less crying if she knows I'm there.

Offline alohahellokitty

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Re: 14 mo old in OT cycle...Need Routine Tweak
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2010, 23:54:48 pm »
Christine,
Did she end up going down for the 2nd one at all? Seems she's using a lot of energy fighting this nap. :( I know fighting the nap is the main thing that kept my DD in OT for a long time. They use so much energy going crazy like that. :(

If you put her down way early has she ever 'caught up' on sleep? Like put her down at 5pm and she sleeps until her regular wake up? I guess my question is if you put her down early does she wake at her normal time regardless? (this is if OT isn't out of control) DD does so I just put her down VERY early and just expect the regular wake up. That way she gets a little extra sleep even though the wake up is the same. KWIM?

I think she's in a OT,SA loop for sure. And TBH if there is anyway you can get her to do two naps that is truly ideal right now for her. Since she doesn't allow any ap naps (ie car rides, stroller rides) its very hard to get that 2nd nap in until she can stretch her day out to adapt easier to the one nap. :(

I think sa is what made my dd refuse her 2nd nap. She didn't want to be apart from me and would only take the 1st b/c she was exhausted and bedtime she was sooooooo tired (b/c she only had one nap) so she didn't fight at all. The second nap she NEEDED for sure but just wasn't willing to do it. So I just gave up as I've got so much on my plate at the moment and don't have time (or emotional strength) to fight her EVERY day for the 2nd nap. So I just put her down a little late for that nap (later than the first but before she got ot) and then early bedtime. NOW IF YOU CAN AVOID THIS AND FIND A WAY TO GET HER TO STILL DO 2 NAPS THAT'S VERY IDEAL!!

How does she react when DH puts her down? Does she go easily for all 3 bt's? Or does she fight all 3 or just that 2nd nap with him? That will help point to what the problem truly is. If its SA it could just be with  you and she's fighting b/c she wants to be with you.

Remind us how she reacts to GW? Does it work for her?
Liana
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Offline Tao

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Re: 14 mo old in OT cycle...Need Routine Tweak
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2010, 01:20:36 am »
Hello =)...

The second nap was a failure. DH did WIWO with her until 1 hour and 20 minutes and finally I surrendered. It was getting late so I just picked her up and decided to put her down at 5 a.m. To answer your questions:

* Yes, Sophie will still wake up at her usual wake up time between 5-6 a.m. if I put her down early so she does get a little bit extra in. I don't know that it cures her OT but I'm sure that it helps. The only time I really notice her waking up earlier than 5 a.m. is when she is in an OT loop then it goes from 5:30 to 5 to 4:45 and so on so forth and she doesn't go back to her regular wake up time until she is out of OT.

* I think you are right Liana about her being in SA/OT loop. It's almost like she started the SA a few weeks ago when I first sought for help with you and then she got sick with the virus and was SO tired that she just went down so easily for a few days until she got better and now that she's better, she's back to SA/OT. I'm starting to realize that this is what it is.

* Regarding GW, we did it with her before trying WIWO when she was 11 months (if I remember correctly). It did work in the beginning, my DH would sit in the room with her until she finally went to sleep but as she got older (hit a year old) it became a game. She would play peek a boo with him from the crib and so long as he was in there she would just keep standing and playing. I dont' know if that is different now but it just seems like she's getting smarter and smarter which is a good thing, but it also makes sleep training more difficult. Tonight I put her down at 530 and she knocked out from being over exhausted. She only had 20 minutes of nap all day so it makes sense that she's tired. Most likely at this rate she will probably wake up at 4:30 a.m. tomorrow. I'm hoping she will at least sleep until 5 something so she can get at least 12 hours in and knock out some of that OT, poor thing.

* A part of me today was second guessing my WIWO method. Maybe i"m doing it wrong or maybe it's just not working for her SA. When I first put her down and she pops up and starts screaming. I always wrap my arms around her while she's in the crib and just hold her and continue singing for a minute more or so. I tell her the sleepy phrase and that mommy loves her and will be right there and she has bearbear to help her sleep. Usually at this point she starts getting anxious...fidgeting like she wants to crawl out of hte crib and pull me in. Then when I say the last phrase, I walk out and don't turn back.
 Usually at this point she will start screaming at the top of her lungs for the first few wails, then it will literally be an on and off whine .....scream...whine.....scream...stop...etc. So, I really don't have the "chance" to go back in there because when I hear a scream, I get up to walk to her room and before I hit the door she's stopped. My room is just a few feet from hers so it's not too far. This p.m. I did have DH go in twice, just to reassure her in case she things we're not there and every time he left she freaked out again. She went on and on and on and I was so surprised that on only 20 minutes of a.m. sleep that she didn't just konk out.

Because she's spirited and touchy, I've noticed that she's also very determined and can be stubborn. She will stand in that corner waiting and waiting for me or dad to walk back in.

* Before i went on Summer vacation from work, my DH would be the one to put her down, she napped SO well with him. OCcassionally put up a fight but nothing like this and I'm sure it's because I'm all of a sudden home for the first time in her life that she wants to be with me. For a while I would be afraid to put her down for naps on the weekends because she was so used to him doing it but if she wanted to fight a nap, she would tend to do it with him too. I can try tomorrow having him put her down to see if that makes a difference. The reason I started doing it is because my husband is gone most weekends for work and I felt like I needed Sophie to be used to me doing it when daddy wasn't there. This transition of me being home has really made things hard for her. Even during the day, it's only me she wants. Daddy can't even hold her even if I'm sitting right next to her. She will reach for me. I'm with her 24/7 because she won't let anyone else hold her or be close to her. I don't neglect her during awake time and in fact I'm always giving her extra cuddles and love so she knows I am there, but it doesn't really seem to be helping.

DH and I were talking today and he was thinking, when we put her down for the a.m. nap, he's really really tempted to just let her sleep. He was telling me that she's obviously so tired and I'm waking her after 20 minutes knowing that she will fight p.m. nap. I think he's right in a sense, and at the same time it's so hard because even if she sleeps for 2 hours from 9 a.m., that will only take us to 11 and she will definitely be OT by bed.

If this doesn't get better in the next few days, I will attempt GW. I was a bit hesitant to do GW only because I feel like it's going a bit backwards and she may just be excited that I"m in there all the time and not go down. But at this point I"m so desperate for an answer. I don't blame you Liana for doing the 1 nap especially with DS #2. I am barely able to stay sane now let alone have another little one to care for. If I knew that WIWO would be the answer and all I have to do is stay strong and just stick it out a few more days, I would not mind. When I have a plan and hope I am stronger emotionally but when I don't know if it's making it worse and I don't see improvement, it makes me down on myself...

I so appreciate all who are reading and responding to this. I've been in a bit of a slump lately and I'm not quite sure how to get out of it. I find myself catering the entire day to her sleep and I don't do anything else until 6 p.m. when she's finally down and I"m exhausted and I've gotten nothing done and just want to sleep =).

Thanks for letting me vent....been so emotional lately =)
Christine

Offline alohahellokitty

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Re: 14 mo old in OT cycle...Need Routine Tweak
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2010, 01:36:30 am »
Christine, I totally understand! Make sure your taking care of yourself!!

First off the good news: This is a phase!! Anna-Li now goes down for EVERY nap (once a day) and betimes now no matter who puts her down. It was SA/OT loop Anna was in as well. She now asks for it if she's too tired to finish lunch before going down, and we finish lunch after her nap. She WANTS to nap now when she's tired. So it WILL get better!!!! It just took her a little time to get over the SA and took me finding something that worked for her.

Secondly: I would make a new post and Katie and I will NOT respond. So hopefully you can get some fresh eyes on the situation.

If you don't have any success with any of their advice I would get with DH and come up with a plan you think will work for little Sophie to get her through this hard time in her life. I SURE hope you get some good ideas that you can implement that work for her!!! If you don't I would give her a nap when she's tired and let her sleep until she wakes. Then go with a super early bt. Try to keep her activities as low as possible and avoid anything that could be OS. Attempt to keep her in bed as much as possible for down time after naps and bt's (of course lo's going through SA scream to get out as soon as their eyes pop open though). Try to give her quite time in her room (of course with SA you will have to be in there with her) doing laid back activities. Try to make sure DH doesn't ramp her up a lot. (my DH loves to really get DD going chasing, flipping exc....)

This will pass, do what you can to make it through!!!!!!!

(((((((((((((((((((( hugs))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Liana
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Jace Michael 1/15/1010 Textbook/Angel

Offline alohahellokitty

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Re: 14 mo old in OT cycle...Need Routine Tweak
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2010, 01:56:24 am »
In regards to your wi/wo............. I've made 2 'rules' in this house for her. She HAS to take 1 nap and HAS to go to bed at night. She can do WHATEVER she wants in her crib until she passes out... ie play with her bear, blankets, sing, talk to herself exc........... but I will NOT get her out of bed until she naps. PERIOD! Since I've taken her down to 1 nap I've never had to do wi/wo during nap time. But if I did, I would NOT lose that battle. I would do it until she passed out!

If she's in pain I medicate her.

If I can tell its SA I give her TONS of attention and cuddles ALL the time when she's NOT sleeping. I've told her nap time is for sleeping and cuddles with mommy will be after she naps. Mommy does NOT cuddle during naps but would LOVE to cuddle her the whole afternoon when she wakes up.

I give her tons of warnings before sleep periods and remind her of how tired she is and how much better she will feel after getting a good rest. I also give her something to look forward to after her nap. I remind her she can have a juice pack (her FAV thing in the world) and we can cuddle all afternoon.... Also give her other fun things we will do... ie. play in the sprinkler outside, read books whatever she likes. Then I HOLD MY GROUND!

I don't care of she's OT, UT exc............. She is 24 months now and I can't take any more of this chaos any longer! I don't give naps by the clock with her anymore. I go only on her cues then give her one nap when she's ready and never wake her. Lately she's been sleeping for 45 mins, wake and sing for 30 min's then back down for another hour. So she's in her crib for over 2 hours. The other day she was in her crib happily for 4 hours (growth spurt I think) she sang in between sleeping exc... Then we go with early bt's. (again by cues and not the clock) Once she got past the ot a bit her nights lengthened out and she makes up any sleep she needs at night. She will often sleep 6pm-7:30am now. At first when I implemented this new 'rule' of our house she woke early and ran around OT for a week or so until her body acclimated to this new schedule. I have a new lo and just can't ap her constantly so this is the way it is.

Since I've been VERY strict with her during sleep times and VERY loving with her during awake times she never fights me anymore. But it did take a bit to straighten the whole situation out.

I just tell her mommy loves her and is here for her always. Sleep time is for sleeping and after she sleeps we can have a full afternoon of all the cuddles she likes.

When I lay her down I always tell her I love her and will come to get her when she wakes. In the begining when she would not lay down I would just tell her I'm here and will come for her when she wakes but is NOT coming out of the crib until she naps.

GW does NOT work for her. I sure wish it did, but she will NOT do it. She screams and gets frantic and beside herself if we are in the room. When we made the change I had several talks with her about it. She half ignored me and acted like she wasn't listening. But I kept reminding her that we have 'one nap and one bedtime every day' and they are non-negotiable. She does them regardless of if she wants to. We will have lots of fun after she's done with her nap, but not until then.

I sure hope you can get some advice that allows her to take two naps still!! But if you don't I just wanted to let you know the things that helped us make the switch and stop the SA during naps and bedtimes.
Liana
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Anna-Li Charity 6/5/2008 Touchy/Spirited
Jace Michael 1/15/1010 Textbook/Angel

Offline Tao

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Re: 14 mo old in OT cycle...Need Routine Tweak
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2010, 02:32:05 am »
Liana,

This is great advice. My friend also mentioned the same thing that she was strict with naps and after four days it improved. Do you remember how old Anna was when you switched her to one nap?
Christine

Offline alohahellokitty

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Re: 14 mo old in OT cycle...Need Routine Tweak
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2010, 03:00:45 am »
Yes Anna-Li has EXTREMELY HIGH sleep needs. Most lo's switch between 12-18 months. She started refusing her 2nd nap around 16 months but still needed them. She still could really used a 2nd one even now when she's teething. But we do nap when tired and bedtime when tired regardless. Its taken all the pressure off both of us. She knows the rules and doesn't have to worry about how she's going to try to get out of the second one and I don't have to worry all day about how I'm going to try to get her down for it. My life was revolving around her sleep needs and I felt it was over shadowing everything. My Mom once asked me why I obsess and am beside myself about it. She told me to put the baby down for a nap when she's tired and put her down for bed when she's tired.... forget it all and just do what I could see she needed when she needed it. I think I tended to want this 'schedule' I knew was predictable and could depend on. And Anna-Li is ANYTHING but predictable. So I threw caution to the wind and started putting her down for one nap when she became truly tired. I enforced the one nap with my whole being and then just put her down whenever she was tired for bedtime. She has completely adjusted to it despite teething.

We fought from 16 months until 20 months. I was so pregnant and exhausted it was terrible. I even fought with her for the first month of my 2nd lo's life. It was miserable. :( I regret dragging it out so long. :( And I hate to say most of her ot was my own fault fighting with her for a hour or two over the 2nd nap while she just worked herself into a mess (instead of playing).

She really still needed that 2nd nap, but in the end would just not take it. :( UNLESS I ap'd it. And I could ap it until #2 came. So we did lots of stroller/car 2nd naps. She'd drop off within minuets of being in the car/stroller so I KNEW she needed it... but in the end it was a losing battle. She is VERY strong willed and sensitive!!!

One thing that really helped her accept and like her nap is having her little brother. We talk alot about how he's tired all the time and he likes to nap to rest so he can get back up and have fun. She helps me by doing small things to get him ready for his naps, all the while chatting about how he naps when he's tired and it helps him feel better.

What about getting Sophie a babydoll and a bed (you can make one out of a shoe box if you don't want to buy). And let her get the baby ready for bed. Change his diaper exc.. sing a song, cover with a blanket exc.... Make it really fun and just chat a bit about how its so nice to rest when your tired so you can have more fun afterwards. Let her do this so she can accept naps and bedtime as good. Maybe even get her to put the baby down to bed before she goes herself. Maybe telling her how sleepy the baby is and we must get him ready for bed and you need her help exc..... Possibly b/c she's touchy she needs to 'play it out' before she does it?? This type of thing helps DD.
Liana
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Jace Michael 1/15/1010 Textbook/Angel

Offline alohahellokitty

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Re: 14 mo old in OT cycle...Need Routine Tweak
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2010, 03:12:32 am »
I also enrolled her in a 'mother's day out'/preschool/nursery.. whatever you want to call it, when she was 19 months old. It was from 9:30-1:30 and she got to socialize with other lo's her own age and of course nap with them. I think seeing other kids nap helped her accept it as well. Nap time is nap time, they enforce it there and I do at home. I've since changed schools and its 9:30-2:30 which gives her more time to nap and she sleeps well there. Which is insane b/c she's such a touchy soul! Sometimes she would nap for 2 hours there and completely refuse her naps here (when we were in the battle of the wits over nap times).

Since she's fully settled into our rules its been absolute heaven!! So let me tell you once you switch to the one nap and you enforce it completely it will be great. If you can still get her to do two naps (with some fresh advice from new eyes) that is still your best option if you can get her to do it.
Liana
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Jace Michael 1/15/1010 Textbook/Angel

Offline katie80

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Re: 14 mo old in OT cycle...Need Routine Tweak
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2010, 13:38:17 pm »
Many, many (((hugs))), Christine!! 

This is so hard.  Liana has given you such wonderful advice!  I agree with enforcing some 'rules' for nap time and bed time if only to help yourself.  So, you know how long the WIWO will last, etc.  In terms of set times, I think that it's easier to do the set time on one nap or when you're solidly in two, but during the transition, you have to be a little flexible.  But, in terms of being set on 'this is nap time, this is what's going to happen,' it is best for everyone!

Here's what I think from yesterday:  she's way, way, way OT.  That's the reason she's fighting you all the time.  She was in bed at 7 pm the other night and then woke at 4:45 am.  That's less than 10 hrs, when typically she's had up to 12.  So, when she fought you on the morning nap, I think that's what's going on.  Claire definitely does this when OT; the minute she knows we're headed to her room for a nap, she starts to squirm and squiggle and do anything to get out of it.  And that's where those nap time 'rules' come in.  After doing WIWO last month, she knows what's going to happen at nap time and whether she fights it or not, eventually she needs to sleep. 

So, it ended up being a 5 hr A for Sophie in the morning and then only a 20 min nap.  Then, after another 3 hr 15 min A time, I think she was probably so OT, she just fought and fought the pm nap.  I know it seems so illogical, as she is so tired, but I've found that the more OT Claire gets, the worse she fights.  I've read it's kind of like the brain chemicals released in a 'fight or flight' situation.  Their little bodies are trying to keep them going on adrenaline as they don't have much left.   :(  It really is hard, and we've been there so many times!  Unfortunately, the car is my go to at that point, and I know it doesn't work for you.

My DH was a lot like yours in those situations.  He thought it was ridiculous to be waking her when she was obviously so tired.  So, a couple times (when she was similar in age to Sophie) we did let Claire sleep as long as she wanted in the morning.  And, actually, it was easier for me to read her tired cues after the longer nap, so I'd put her down again in the afternoon and she'd have another CN.  Overall, the morning CN did her better, but it was so hard to read cues after that, that during those bad OT loops, it made everything more stressful.  I soooo know how you feel! 

So, the options you and your DH can do are to continue the short morning nap and longer afternoon nap, but I think with shorter A times.  What happens if you put Sophie down considerably earlier (i.e. will she just roll around til she falls asleep or will she be upset)?  Or, let her sleep when she needs it as much as you can get (like Liana has suggested), and once you feel she is catching up, go back to the morning CN, longer pm nap. 

The reason I keep pushing for 2 naps is that I wish someone would have encouraged me to keep them as long as possible.  I was frustrated just like you, but Claire wasn't FULLY ready for one nap til much later and still needs 2 every once in a while when she's super OT.  If you do start another thread, title it just a bit different, and I promise I won't reply (for awhile, at least  ;)).  I'm now invested and want to continue to support you!



Offline alohahellokitty

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Re: 14 mo old in OT cycle...Need Routine Tweak
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2010, 16:51:17 pm »
Christine, Katie is sooooooooooooo right! You really want to keep those 2 naps as long as you can!! And only go to 1 if its unavoidable.
Liana
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Offline Tao

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Re: 14 mo old in OT cycle...Need Routine Tweak
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2010, 16:53:16 pm »
Thanks for your dedication to my little one! I just started a new thread...hopefully I will have some takers. We are in the middle of 1:10 minutes of screaming through nap #1 again. It's so horrible. She just stands and stands and fights it. You'd think after so many days of WIWO she would get the idea.
Christine

Offline katie80

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Re: 14 mo old in OT cycle...Need Routine Tweak
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2010, 17:53:06 pm »
She just stands and stands and fights it. You'd think after so many days of WIWO she would get the idea.

That's why I think she's OT and it's a routine thing rather than not being able to fall asleep on her own.  Some LOs are just super sensitive to OT, I think. 

So sorry for the rough time, Christine.  Hope you get some new help.  I'll keep my eye on it!



Offline alohahellokitty

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Re: 14 mo old in OT cycle...Need Routine Tweak
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2010, 18:11:18 pm »
Oh Christine, I sure hope you get some new insight that helps you sort this whole deal! I agree she sounds ot. :( Poor little Sophie! If only these lo's would sleep when they are tired!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Liana
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Offline momtonb&ab

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Re: 14 mo old in OT cycle...Need Routine Tweak
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2010, 19:07:38 pm »
just locking this thread

pop over to http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=173927.0 to help out so we can keep all advice on the same thread :)