9 m/o and NWs

[Buntybear]

Hi,

My DS is 9m/o and we have been having troubles for 3 weeks now. He is BF and has never been great at STTN but I could do with some advice now 

It started 3 weeks ago, we were away for 3 nights but the first night he STTN. He then got a throat infection and was on antobitoics for a week which appear to have really upset his digestive system. We already have multiple food intolerances and as a result I am watching our diets even more carfefully and have elimated anything from his diet that could aggrevate. What with the resulting stomach discomfort , some OT, some UT and goodness knows what else we have only had 1 STTN since then and that was when he refused his pm nap and was knackered!

My query is that he seems to wake every night between 10.30 and 11.30 and is awake for at least 1.5 hours. I don't feed straight away (unless I know he is hungry) but of course when they are awake that long you are going to try and feed at some point aren't you?! Whilst he does take a feed it doesn't always get him back to sleep. More often than not he needs to be held until he is in his deep sleep now. On most occasions he does have a gurgly stomach. We don't use pain meds as they don't work. He cries for most of the NW. To stop him crying we have to turn the lights on and almost wake him fully. 

Whilst all this could be purely down to food intolerances please could you advise on why he might be waking at roughly the same time every night for the same time and also have a look at our EASY and see if I am missing something?? I don't really have a prob with his naps and he goes down independently. After this NW he normally will then sleep till morning when I have to wake him.

I have just increased our A times and are having a struggle to fit everything into the day now. BT is getting pushed later and later but as he is so tired from the NW I don't want to start the day any earlier yet.

E - 7.30 (Solids 1 hour later)
S - 11 (1.5 hr)
E - 12.30 (Solids 1 hour later)
S - 4.15 (45 mins)
E - 5 (Solids 1 hour later)
S - 8-8.30ish

Thanks for reading 

[Buntybear]

Forgot to add that in amongst all this we are also swaddle weaning! We felt we had to so that if he has any wind he can try and dislodge it himself. He is fine for naps now but for the last 2 nights we have re-swaddle at the NW hoping to get some decent sleep in him.

[EloysH]

Hey Luv,

EASY is not my strong point but just on the NW'ing window, I have read that 10-12pm is the classic discomfort window, if they are sick this is when they are likely to wake.  

So he's not just hanging out at all, its mostly crying then?  If he's hanging out and chatting then I wonder if he needs less sleep.  However, if he's thrashing around in discomfort then I would be looking at the foods as you already are!

Does he do a poo at all during this time?  I find that if K wakes in discomfort a poo usually happens too with some wind and he makes different noises then just normnal tired crying, some deeper sort of moans/call out like someone has poked him in the stomach   is the way I can describe them  .

big hugs and i hope you get it sorted soon or else he resolves it himself  

[sianie]

Hi BB!

Sounds to me like there are a few issues here....

1/ It can take LO's a while to recover from illness + he's had his intolerance issues on top of this so it could be taking him longer than average to get back to 'normal'?
2/ Do you DF as him waking around the 10.30pm mark is usually when you DF (not sure if you ever did it or have dropped it recently?), so could have become a habit to wake at that time?
3/ I'm no swaddle expert but maybe the fact that you started weaning him & then have started to re-swaddle is un-settling him?
4/ Agree with Eloise that if he's waking crying then that to me usually means OT &/or discomfort of some sort...


Your EASY looks pretty good to me & nothing really I can see that you could change....

How much solids & milk is he having during the day?

[Buntybear]

Hey girls!

Eloise - that is interesting about the 10-12 window - makes total sense here. Yes he mainly cries. We leave him as long as possible as it starts as a whine but it builds. Nope no poo! Had lots of wind on the antibitoics. Now he is gurgly but with no wind. Funny that he is not bothered in the day - just in that 10-12 window  I have said on your ED thread that I am going to trial me on no wheat etc now. Hard times ahead!

Sian - I did DF but weaned it prob about 2 months now. Don't think it is realted but may well be a habit. Am thinking of W2S tonight at about 1030 but if it is dis confort then this may not help. Re the weaning, we only reswaddle when he is already awake, then he settles again. Re food - I have bumped up his solid intake again today! With his diet so restriced it is hard to have enough food in so we had run out of fruit for pudding and his GF bread. All stocked up again today though!

[EloysH]

can you describe his poos?

[Buntybear]

As far as I know they are normal. He was a bit constipated but no I have removed sw pot and rice cereal he isn't. We have never had blood or mucous.

Last night he woke at 9 pm for 1.5 hrs so never got the chance to W2S!

[KathrynK]

Hello you
Looking at your EASY with a totally objective head on, I would say he's OT (not what you wanted to hear, I bet)
Having one 90 min and one 45 min nap is a routine more typical of a lo who is over 12mo and already underway with the 2-1 transition. A 9pm needs 2 long naps ideally.
To do a 3.45hr stretch, then 45 min nap, then 3-3.5hr stretch to bed is an awful lot to handle. OT NWs always manifest as long NWs before midnight, with difficulty settling, which can look like discomfort. You know when you can't sleep, even though you are knackered, and you toss and turn and get so frustrated you could cry? Well I bet that's what this is.
There could also be a bit of hunger in there, I would up his solids again, it's amazing how much they can eat at this age!!!
Give me a ring later if you want to chat
Love SIL xxxxx

[EloysH]

that would be so cool and so easy to solve it is was OT!  Let us know how you get on 

[Buntybear]

Thanks Kathryn, you are prob right and he is OT and prob it has accumulated as we are on 11hr nights/13hr days and he is awake 1.5 hrs so only 9.5 hrs of night sleep.

How to fix though? As you know we have always struggled with pm naps and dropped CN early cos of this! I can't see us getting anymore DT sleep tbh. I will try and shorten final A time but a UT Olly is way worse than an OT Olly to get to sleep!

[KathrynK]

The way I see it us this: yes, he is a monkey to get down for that pm nap. So if he needs nearly 4hrs of A time between naps to get him to go down, so be it. But then you need to shorten that time before bed, I would have him down for 7.30; if you have a good solid consistent bedtime routine, it will be easy to get him to go to sleep at that point, even if he is a little ut. Then he should be more settled and catch up on some sleep.
 I always think if they are OT it's better to catch up on night sleep rather than naps, as it's better quality sleep, kwim? So don't bother fighting the naps battle if you are not going to win, and concentrate on getting him more night sleep. And focus on the start of the night, ie going to bed earlier as that's going to be easier than extending his wake up time
Hope all that makes sense!

[Buntybear]

Have shorten final A time to 3 hours two nights now and have had to APOP both as he won't sleep. Will try one more night but then may have to increase again!

[Buntybear]

Hi 

So we are still having NWs. Last night we had 2 with a total of about 4.5hrs awake!

Our EASY is still the same really. A times 3.5/3.75/3. So have kept the final A time as 3 and as long as it is fairly low key he goes down OK now.

However, I need a next step now! We are at our wits end. Feel like we have tried everything.

Does anyone have any advice on how to actaully tackle the NW? I guess we have become props. Assuming that he is no longer in stomach discomfort how would we go about it?

Currently we will leave him to see if he re-settles but if he wakes between 10.30-11.30 then we know from the first noise that he won't settle. He can do earlier in the night. Last night we tried everything we could to get him to sleep. He will often arch away from me so I put him down and he will do the same there. Shh/pat which always used to work doesn't anymore as he just pushes me away with his hands.

We have never tried PU/PD and don't really fancy trying it now TBH. It says it is a last resort but I feel there must be a compromise first?

Would really appreciate any input girls 

[kimmbba]

BB, have you tried to feed straight off when he wakes?  I wonder if it is hunger?  I know that you both have a really restricted diet and maybe he really just isn't getting enough to eat. 
Ethan sleeps about the same amount as Olly during the day....and it does start to add up to OT after several days and then things get worse for NW and crummy naps.  So it could be a combination?  Just thinking out loud to see if it gives you any help!

[~Sarah~]

I too might try feeding at first peep just to see if it is hunger? Worth a try at this point I would think, can't be worse!

Also, have you talked to Ped about maybe adding a probiotic to his food?  I know IRL 2 people who had great success using them after antibiotic use to get their tummy flora back in order. I know you can use them quite young, my one friend used it with her newborn.  She had a slight infection at birth.  So my friend sprinkled a little on her nipple for LO to iingest.  Just a thought and you can get it at a local health food store.