Please help with my "EASY" for 8mth old.......Nightfeeds / Short Naps / UPDATE

[Tracyxx]

Hi Everyone,

I am having so many "EASY" problems with my 8 month old son that in the last few months i have posted on several threads looking for advice but i feel like i need to address our routine as a whole and deal with the most important issues first or i am never going to get anywhere but i have so much to fix i really need some advice on where to start......

I think our main problem is our Nightfeeds as Kieran has his last milk feed at 7pm before bed but then wakes up for feeds around 10pm, 1pm, 4am then wakes for the day around 5/6am.  So far ive tried stopping cold turkey using PU/PD but he would just wake up and cry for hours so after a week with no result i tried switching to just giving him water but again he would just drink the water then cry for hours so i came to the conclusion that he was actually hungry so i gave in and went back to giving him milk.  There has always been a routine to his wakenings but over the last week he has been wakening up every 3 hours almost to the very minute so his wakenings have obviously became a habit but he does drink 7/8oz each time so there must be an element of hunger involved so i need to find a way to stop it gently but i dont know where to start? I dont mind him keeping one of the nightfeeds i just think 3 x 7/8oz nightfeeds is too much as i think it is affecting the amount he takes during the day.

My second issue is short naps & Early wakenings as i have tried every "A" time from 2 - 3hrs but can't get a nap over 30mins, we did eventually start getting 60min naps after a first "A" time of just 2hrs but that become a double edged sword as he has began to wake at 5am instead of his usual 7am so if his first "A" time is 2hrs we get a 60min nap but a EW, but if we go above 2hrs we just get 30min naps.  I couldn't understand why his "A" time would be as low as 2hrs but then i was advised that this wasn't his true "A" time it was more an extention from a bad nights sleep, but after weeks of adjusting his "A" times i gave in and just accepted our 30min naps but then today just by chance he was refusing to go for a nap so i just left him and he finally crashed out after 4hrs and he slept for 1hr15min which was a total first for us so i tried again and put him down after another 4hrs and got a 60min nap but he spent the whole day very very cranky so does this mean i should try more than 4hrs or less?, and what naps am i aiming for now at 8 months? Is it still 2 x 1.5hr naps?

Thirdly solids have now became an issue for us as it has been suggested to me now that maybe he isn't sleeping through the night because he isnt eating enough solids but if he has his bottle first then solids he wont eat any more than 4oz of solids at each mealtime but if i give him solids first then i get the opposite effect and he will only drink 3/4oz of milk after each meal so 12-16oz of milk per day, so now i dont know whether to give him his milk first and just hope his solids increase in time or whether to give him solids knowing his milk will drop, but i know this will probably be an ongoing issue until we manage to stop his nightfeeds as i can't expect him to take the proper amount of milk & solids if he is drinking 21+oz of milk throughout the night.

As we speak i am working on a new "EASY" routine to try with him but am stuck what to try now in regard to "A" times & feeds so any help would be greatly appreciated, right now because of our wonky "A" times he is waking at 5/6am but we usually have a 7am - 7pm 4hr Easy so i am just planning around that hoping he will go back to a 7am wake up as soon as i sort his "A" times, i have been trying to push his bedtime to 7.30 to see if it would help with the EW but it is very hard to push him past 7pm.   He is normally nodding off before it gets to 7pm so tonight i pushed his bath back to 7pm to try and keep him awake but he was falling asleep in the bath so i only managed to keep him wakened for an extra 30mins so he went to bed at 7.30 so going by his nightime routine he would be due wakened now (10/11ish) for his 1st feed of the night so i just went in to check him and he had rolled onto his tummy so i rolled him back and he lightly stirred but went back to sleep so im just going to wait now and see what happens as if he sleeps any longer than usual  then maybe wake 2 sleep is the way to go as its something ive not tried, can anyone give me any tips?

Tracyxx

[teilvnav]

Tracy, how long do you wait after giving him the bottle to give him the solids? It is generally a good idea to wait about 45-60 min, so they are getting hungry again. I do agree that he is probably waking from hunger, but it is probably habit or SA as well. If you can get more food into him over the day, then you can start working on the other factors. Many people do have sucess with W2S for habitual waking, so it is worth a try!

The average A time for an 8 month old LO is about 3.5 hrs, but that can differ a bit according to the individual child's needs. Still, it gives you an idea of what he could handle. I would try putting him down at 3.5 hrs for a few days and see if that helps, keeping in mind that many LO's need a slightly shorter first A time of the day. You are right to aim for 2 x 1.5 hr naps at this age.

Has he gotten up yet tonight? I am interested to see if the W2S helped at all.

[bug_blues70]

he isn't sleeping through the night because he isnt eating enough solids

I don't think that he's not STTN b/c of not getting enough solids. I think he's not STTN b/c of habit and like I said in your other post, you can and should offer more food during the day, whether solids or FF/BM but that you will probably need to reduce the NFs gradually one at a time. Because he will probably not eat much more solids when he's getting all that milk at night, kwim? I'm not suggesting that you don't at least *try* W2S, but you probably won't be able to get rid of all NFs that way, and you can't go cold turkey (as you know) b/c he sounds like he's getting most of his calories at night and so he's legitimately hungry. If you do what I suggested in your other post, you will be gradually trading night calories for day calories. But if W2S does work for one feed, I'd consider that a huge success and just feed as normal for the rest of the NFs and do the W2S again for the same feed the next night until it's just habit for him not to wake at that time. IMO, you don't want to overdo it and try to eliminate several feedings all at once.


I think you are right that your night sleep is the most important, but since it has to be done gradually, it will take you a long time. Getting better NS will help get your DS under control, but in the mean time, there are things you can try to get better naps too. I think your LO can probably handle a lot more than 2 or even 2.5 hr atimes, but you'll have to increase this gradually as well. BTW, 30 min naps do not *always* mean OT. I found that with Ellen, she was so chronically UT that her 30 min naps were usually UT. I only counted them OT if she woke crying and unhappy and obviously still tired. How does your LO wake? When he wakes at 30 min can you ever resettle him or is he up and happy and playing? If so, you probably have UT naps. Your strategy would be different depending on whether they are OT or UT so it'd be very helpful to figure that out...??

[Chui]

Hi Tracy,

We've talked before on a previous post about our LOs taking short naps. Sorry to hear that you're still having problems all over. I agree with previous posts about getting more calories into Kieran during the day so you can indeed cut down nightfeeds gradually as you know that he is getting those extra calories during the day. What I did with LO was the 1hr after milk then  solids. But if he wasn't interested, I tried again half an hour later. Actually nowadays he eats >1 hr after milk, about 1.5hrs. His milk intake hasn't been affected. Usually I'm not too fussed if his lunch  and 3-4pm milk is about 4-5 oz.each time. but at bedtime I get him to drink about 7-8 oz. If I think he hasn't had enough milk in the day then I just add the ounces into his food to make up. Perhaps you could work on this feeding issue first? I think my LO now takes about 700 ++ mls of milk a day ( Breast and formula so its just a rough estimate )and I think that would be adequate for his age ... read it somewhere in the BF FAQs. He is about 9.5kgs. Pls correct me if I am wrong.

As for naps, I kept and am still keeping a logbook! for his sleep and NWs which have mostly almost resolved. I had EW but I think you can start by increasing his first A time by 15mins, and as you know you need to give it time! I found my logbook really helpful so I could look back and see what was different etc.. even overstimulation in the middle of the day I think causes my LO to be unrestful at night.

I'll post my EASY just in case you might want to know what it looks like given our LOs are around the same age:

wakeup 6:20 ( A about 3h 30min just recently gone up a bit)
nap: around 9:45 - 10:30( 45mins - sometimes he wakes up sometimes I wake him) A - 3 hr 30min )
nap:200pm -3:30
BT close to 7pm. ( A slightly less than 3h 30mins )
DF 8ish - cutting back

If I put him to bed after 7pm, he wakes at 6am. Don't know why! so i'd rather have that extra 20mins for him and myself !

This is only a rough guide. Really,to get to this stage, I trialled different "trials" of A time and naps for weeks! I know the issue is short naps but hang in there ! The aim is 1.5hrs nap time, but for my LO if he had that over the course of the day his night is crappy. Not saying you shouldn't, but I tried that and it just wasn't smooth sailing for him and he was a monkey at night.

THe same as Kieran, Elijah could go 4 hours and giving me good 2 hour naps, but I found him to be really cranky and dropping off at BT and having silly nights. I don't know why but maybe its just too much stimulation for them to go for 4 hours at this age. So with him being really cranky during the day and rubbish nights I knew that routine just wasn't for him. But another lady here whose LO is younger than ours is just on one nap and is fine during the day with great nights! She knows her Lo well!

[Tracyxx]

Morning Girls  ,

OMG i just wrote a long post and lost it all (Typical!!  ), so here goes again......

Well it's the first day of our new "EASY" and although there is a long way to go i am starting to feel better already just knowing that i have a plan.

Firstly i would like to thank you all for all your advice you have no idea how much its helping me....(((HUGS)))

I would try putting him down at 3.5 hrs for a few days and see if that helps.

How long do you wait after giving him the bottle to give him the solids?

Has he gotten up yet tonight? I am interested to see if the W2S helped at all.

You where reading my mind as i decided to stick at an "A" time of 3.5hrs today but his dad had him this morning and said he couldnt get him to 3.5hrs so had to put him down at 3hrs but we ended up just getting a 45min nap.  So 4hrs of "A" time yesterday gave me 2 x 60min+ naps but a very cranky baby and 3hrs today gave me a 45min nap so if i stick with 3hrs could the naps increase to 60min or does a 45min nap mean i should be pushing to 3.5hrs or maybe even 3.15hrs??

I have tried lots of combinations, milk & solids together or solids first but both resulted in him only taking 3/4oz of milk.  Milk an hour before solids meant he would drink 5/6oz of milk but would only take 3-4oz of solids but i am going to stick with this one and hope that as he drops nightfeeds he will start eating more solids, he loves finger foods so i think i will start offering some after he has eaten his usual 3-4oz then i know he will eat till hes full. Should i be offering juice/water with his solids or i am just filling him with water?

Last night he went to bed at 7.30 so was due up at 10.30-11pm but i did the W2S at 11pm and he slept through to 1am, but im not convinced if the W2S worked or if he was just so tired because of the 4hr "A"'s yesterday and me pushing his bedtime back but i will try again tonight and see what happens.  Im thinking now that we have 3 nightfeeds to drop so if W2S works then maybe i could try it on the first wakening, keep the second wakening as it is for now then start reducing ounces from the third feed, or maybe even try W2S on the first and last feed? He would still be getting 1 x 7oz feed in the middle so shouldn't get too hungry but would i be pushing it too much to try dropping 2 together, should i just stick to 1 at a time?

I don't think that he's not STTN b/c of not getting enough solids.

He will probably not eat much more solids when he's getting all that milk at night, kwim?
en someone told me that this was not h
30 min naps do not *always* mean OT. I found that with Ellen, she was so chronically UT that her 30 min naps were usually UT. I only counted them OT if she woke crying and unhappy and obviously still tired. How does your LO wake?

I agree, as after watching him i feel he is full after his 3/4oz of solids and you are right i can't expect him to eat more when he is guzzling 21oz of milk during the night  .  

After his 30min naps he is usually crying or very cranky but he just won't go back to sleep so have to put up with a cranky baby until his next nap, so although we do get the odd UT nap when he wakes smiling i think most of the 30min naps are OT naps.

Hi Tracy, I think my LO now takes about 700 ++ mls of milk a day ( Breast and formula so its just a rough estimate )and I think that would be adequate for his age ... read it somewhere in the BF FAQs. He is about 9.5kgs. Pls correct me if I am wrong.

As for naps, I kept and am still keeping a logbook! for his sleep and NWs which have mostly almost resolved. I had EW but I think you can start by increasing his first A time by 15mins, and as you know you need to give it time! I found my logbook really helpful so I could look back and see what was different etc..

If I put him to bed after 7pm, he wakes at 6am. Don't know why! so i'd rather have that extra 20mins for him and myself !

This is only a rough guide. Really,to get to this stage, I trialled different "trials" of A time and naps for weeks! I know the issue is short naps but hang in there ! The aim is 1.5hrs nap time, but for my LO if he had that over the course of the day his night is crappy. Not saying you shouldn't, but I tried that and it just wasn't smooth sailing for him and he was a monkey at night.

THe same as Kieran, Elijah could go 4 hours and giving me good 2 hour naps, but I found him to be really cranky and dropping off at BT and having silly nights. I don't know why but maybe its just too much stimulation for them to go for 4 hours at this age.

Hi again Chui, when i tried Kieran on Solids before milk his milk dropped down so much that i was worried so i switched him to Follow on milk as they only need to drink 500-600mls of that a day so that helps a bit rather than trying to get him to drink 700-800mls .

I too have a log of all his "A" times and the naps i get but they grow up and develop so quickly that as soon as i feel im getting somewhere something happens like teething / crawling and it all goes out the window  . I stopped logging when i thought we had finally found his "A" time when i started getting 60 min naps after an "A" time of just 2hrs but then someone told me that this was not actually his true "A" time it was just him catching up after a bad night sleep  

I have been reading a lot over the last few days and it seems that pushing back the bedtime can actually make E/W worse so i think i'll just leave it as it is at least when he goes at 7pm he goes down without a fight.

Like you im not going to push for 2 x 1.5hr naps as i think it makes his nights even worse so im just aiming for 2 x 60min naps, and if i get those ill be very happy  

Yesterday was great getting the 2 x 1hr+ naps but he was a very cranky little monkey so i think it was just too much for him so i just have to find a happy balance of enough "A" time to make him nap but not too much that he gets really cranky.
 
Thanks Again Girls i'll be back later to let you know how today goes

Tracy

[Tracyxx]

Ok here is how things went today, Day 1 of Kieran's new "EASY"...............

Well i started Kieran on his new "EASY" today, i had planned to try him with a new "A" time of 3.5hrs but he was with his daddy this morning and he couldn't get him past 3hrs so after a 1st "A" time of just 3hrs he got a 50min nap.  I had planned to push for the 3.5hr "A" time for his 2nd nap but the same happened again and i couldn't get him past 3hrs but this time he slept for 1hr20mins which was perfect so ive re-adjusted his "EASY" to a "A" time of 3hrs which i will stick to for the next 3/4 days to see how his naps go, obviously we will have to make little tweaks each day depending on how long he naps for as it could be anywhere between 30-90mins.

We did have a few problems with moving his "A" time from 2.30hrs to 3hrs as it meant we have had to drop the 30min catnap that he has some afternoons around 4pm as with his new "A" time it would have been too close to his bedtime so this meant his last "A" time today was 5hrs so by bedtime he was totally exhausted.  I know at this age he should be dropping to 2 naps a day so if both his naps increase to 1.5hrs or even 1 x 1hr & 1 x 1.5hrs then his last "A" time would be just over 4hrs which is ok but if his naps stay around 1hr or less then i may have to bring his bedtime forward if he can't handle the new 5hr activity time.

Well tonight he went to bed at 7.30pm so was due his first feed at 10.30pm but at 10pm i could hear him crying so went in and he had rolled over onto his tummy and got stuck so i rolled him back and thought i may as well feed him since he was due to wake up anyway but he wouldn't take it and just moaned when i tried to hold him so i just put him back in his cot and after a few mins of shh shh / pat pat he went back to sleep and didnt wake again until 12.30am.  So as he didn't properly wake up his little roll over seemed to work as a sort of W2S so that is the 2nd night he has went from 7.30pm to 12.30am without a feed so i wasn't planning to start trying to drop his feeds until his new EASY was properly established but i may as well carry on now with the W2S for his first feed as he seems to be coping fine without it and it would be silly to stop now after 2 nights to start again in a week or so.

Tracyxx

[jendewit]

Sounds like an improvement.  Just make sure you stick with W2S for 3 nights.  I know when I was transitioning my LO to 2 naps he had a much longer wake time just before bed.  Not 5 hours but it was a little bigger.  I would watch him and see if he needs a little cat nap.  You don't have to get him on 2 naps.  There is no rule that at 8 months you must be on two naps.  If he needs 2+ a small catnap.  Then he needs it.  My LO took a small 30min catnap at about 5:00 and was like that for a while until he just dropped it on his own at about 9 months.

Since he is missing that 10:00 feed now.  Did you find he took a bit more at his morning feed?  If so then you are already beginning to make the change from nightime food to daytime food.  I know that others say to gradually decrease his food.  But I had this problem about waking multiple times at around 6 months and I just worked on one wake at a time using W2S and it worked great for us.  But it was gradual and did take some time. 

[Chui]

yay sounds like some improvement with the night there!
also agree with you pushing BT later makes EW worse.
keep us posted

[Tracyxx]

Morning Girls, its now Day 2 and things are not going great............

As i mentioned in my last post last night was good he went to bed at 7.30pm, had the rollover incident at 10pm but slept through to 12.30am before wanting a feed (so 5hrs), but then he woke again at 4.30am took his bottle then decided he was staying up.  I treated this as a NW but didn't manage to get him back over until after 5am which was a bit of a waste of time as he just woke up again at 6am  .  So we started our day at 6am with his morning bottle which he refused, so i left him to 6.30 and tried again but he only took 1.5oz from his 8oz bottle so i just gave up and moved onto his breakfast.  He refused his hot baby cereal but took a full pot (3.5oz) of apple & plum fruit puree & a slice of toast with cheese spread so i think his teething has made his gums sensitive to hot food as he is refusing anything hot but will still take anything cool/cold or fingerfoods.

So he had breakfast and a play then going on our new 3hr "A" i put him down at 9.20 to settle for his nap at 9.30 but it took so long for him to settle that it was 9.45 before he was asleep so an "A" time of 3.15hrs but he was awake again after his usual 30min nap .

Lunch was fine and after another 3hrs we reached nap #2 and i put him down in his cot but he lay there wide awake, at 3.5hrs he was getting cranky but still wide awake, by 4hrs his eyes where so heavy he was starting to look really OT so eventually he gave in and crashed out, so he woke from his first nap at 9.55am and fell asleep again at 2.10pm so an "A" time of 4.15hrs and he slept for 1hr50mins (our longest nap to date), so a 4hr "A" time is giving us great naps but when we did it on Thursday it made him very cranky and OT, so now im not sure if i leave him at 4hrs would he always be OT or would he eventually adjust to the longer "A" time?

So as we havn't managed to get consistant "A" times our naps are all over the place  -

Thursday - Nap 1 - 1hr15mins after 4hrs    Nap 2 - 1hr after 4hrs
Friday -     Nap 1 - 50mins after 3hrs        Nap 2 - 1hr20mins after 3hrs
Saturday - Nap 1 - 35mins after 3.15hrs    Nap 2 - 1hr50mins after 4.15hrs (Our longest nap to date)

I know we are still to early to tell anything from his "A" times but by the looks of things he seems to nap much better with the longer "A" time, so should i leave him at 3.5-4hrs knowing we will get 2 x 60-90min naps but he will be OT, then just try and deal with the over tiredness with maybe earlier bedtimes or would this just lead to earlier wakenings?.  

He does seem to have more energy in the mornings so maybe i could even try a 4hr "A" in the morning which will give me a 60-90min nap but will leave him OT so then try for a shorter 2.5-3hr "A" in the afternoon to compensate, and if the 2nd nap was really short i could always squeeze his 30min catnap back in so by the time his bedtime comes around the OT should be gone, could this work

Tracyx

[jendewit]

Tracy, how do you know that DS is ready for a nap.  What does he do...pull his ears, rub eyes, scream, get cranky.  I think you are so determined to get his A time "right" that you may have forgotten to see what he needs.  My DS is 11 months and wakes at 8:00 and then naps around 10:30 or 11:00ish. That is 2.5 or 3 hours.  Some days it's even 2 hours.  I am wondering if you DS is so tired in the morning from all the waking that he really needs a nap much earlier than 3 hours.  Say 2 hours.  But I really think you need to observe him for a bit.  See what he does.  You may be missing his sleep window and he is OT before you know it.

   

[Tracyxx]

Tracy, how do you know that DS is ready for a nap.  What does he do...pull his ears, rub eyes, scream, get cranky.  I think you are so determined to get his A time "right" that you may have forgotten to see what he needs.  My DS is 11 months and wakes at 8:00 and then naps around 10:30 or 11:00ish. That is 2.5 or 3 hours.  Some days it's even 2 hours.  I am wondering if you DS is so tired in the morning from all the waking that he really needs a nap much earlier than 3 hours.  Say 2 hours.  But I really think you need to observe him for a bit.  See what he does.  You may be missing his sleep window and he is OT before you know it.

Hi Jendewit,

My problem is that Kieran has so many night wakenings that he wakes up already OT so he starts yawning & rubbing his eyes within just 10 mins of being wakened, i have tried everything to extend his waking up time but just can't as later bedtimes mean EW at 4.30am and longer 1st "A" times make him even more OT, but even though he wakes up showing all the usual sleepy cues he is full of energy and ready for the day, so with no real sleepy cues to rely on i have had no choice but to be a clock watcher and to try different "A" times, i have tried leaving him till he gets to the cranky & upset stage but by then he is really OT and i get nothing but 30min naps, so i am not trying to get his "A" time right for myself i am trying to help him nap to get out of the constant OT loop that he is in as he is a much happier baby after a good sleep.

You are totally spot on though about the much shorter first "A" time as looking back at my log from last month i did get 60 min naps after an "A" time of just 2-2.30hrs but started getting really EW so was advised on here that it was too short so to make it at least 2.5-3hrs so that took us back to 30min naps, but i came to the conclusion yesterday that until he stops all the night wakenings then im not going to find his "Right A time" as he is constantly in a OT loop so im always getting OT naps, and i really do feel his "A" time should be around 3.5-4hrs as i can get good naps with this but he just can't manage it right now after so many wakenings so as of today i am going back to a short first "A" of 2.5hrs to try and let him catch up on some sleep but im worried now that i may have to put a catnap back in or our last "A" time will be far too long, what do you do?.

I tried yesterday and today with the short first "A" and he just went back to his usual 30min naps but the last time we started this it took 3/4 days for them to start to increase and it was 4/5 days before we got up a 60min nap, they never went past 45/60mins but i would be happy with that as then i could just work on getting a longer afternoon nap.  

Tracyxx
 

[Tracyxx]

Hi Girls,

I think i may have stumbled across the answer to our night wakening problem, tell me what you think??

At the very start of this thread i posted this.......

Solids have now became an issue for us as it has been suggested to me that he isn't sleeping through the night because he isn't eating enough solids but when i give him solids first then he will only drink 3/4oz of milk after each meal so 12-16oz of milk per day at most.

Kieran was 10.7lbs at birth and was always a hungry baby drinking 5-6oz every 2hrs from just a few weeks old so i was encourage to start solids early so his milk intake would drop so since starting solid's at 3.5 months Kierans milk intake has gradually decreased but after it was suggested to me he needed more solids to sleep through the night i have been gradually increasing his solids which has made his milk intake fall even more to 10-16oz a day at most.  It has never worried me until i had a visit last night from my friend and her baby who is 5.5 months old (only 12 weeks younger than K) and she was saying that he isn't eating solids yet but she isn't worried as he is still happy and sleeping through the night but he drinks 5-6 full 8oz bottles a day (approx 40-48oz of milk a day) so she feels solids are not too far off, then i realised there is big difference between Kieran's 3-4 x 4oz bottles a day and his 5-6 x 8oz bottles a day even though Kieran is eating solids aswell, and then i spoke to another friend today who has just started weaning her 4.5 month old son and she said the same that even though he has started eating solids twice a day he is still taking at least 4-5 x 8oz bottles a day and then i started thinking is milk the problem??    

So i looked back at Kierans daily logs for this week and on Saturday he drank 11oz of milk during the day & 21oz through the night, on Sunday he drank 13oz during the day & 21oz through the night but on Friday he drank 21oz during the day and through the night he only took 11oz, so it seems what he doesn't always been on arink during the day he is making up for at night!!.  The problem is that he only drank that much on Friday because he had refused breakfast that day so had a full bottle of milk instead so to test the theory i would need to cut back his solids for a few days so he increases the amount of milk he takes so im thinking of trying it out, do you think a lack of milk could be enough to stop him sleeping?

It would make sense as to why he has never STTN as we where encouaged to drop his milk intake quite early on so he never got to the stage of drinking full 8oz+ bottles.

Tracyx  

[bug_blues70]

but i came to the conclusion yesterday that until he stops all the night wakenings then im not going to find his "Right A time" as he is constantly in a OT loop so im always getting OT naps, and i really do feel his "A" time should be around 3.5-4hrs as i can get good naps with this but he just can't manage it right now after so many wakenings so as of today i am going back to a short first "A" of 2.5hrs to t

I had this same issue with Ellen - I couldn't get her naps worked out til i got her nights worked out, so I think you might be right about this. Not to say you shouldn't keep working on it at the same time though...

Also, if you have an atime that is far too long in the afternoons, you could try a 15-20 min nap. It's not restorative enough to give a full atime (whereas 30 min often is) but it seems to prevents the brain from making those OT/keep you up hormones that happens when LOs get so OT they get wired and can't settle. So if you have a 5 hour atime and you know he can handle 3.5 hrs atime, I'd give him 3.5 atime, a 20 min nap, and a 1.5 hr atime til bed. That's what worked so well for me when I was dropping Ellen's CN - anymore than 20 min though, and she would fight bedtime. So I had to watch *exactly* when she fell asleep and woke her up *exactly* at 20 min. This kind of CN can backfire and cause OT buildup IF your last atime is still too long, and you kinda have to take into account the atime before and the atime after, but 1.5 hours after 3.5 shouldn't be too much - especially as opposed to 5 hrs straight. But better to start small (1.5 hrs) and see if he'll still go down for bed and increase the next night if you need to (in small increments) than to start too big and have OT build up, iykwim. Does that make sense?


And to answer your question - yes, I definitely agree he's getting too much milk at night and not enough during the day. However, I don't think that all of the sudden cutting out too many solids will help - he'll only eat more milk during the day and still probably the same at night. You have to look at total calories - not just cals from milk or cals from solids. The trick will be to decrease night milk and increase day milk. You might try cutting out *a bit* of solids, but don't take it to the extreme b/c then you'll just increase his hunger. And IMO, milk (a liquid diet) is not as satisfying as a solid diet, so even if he takes more milk instead of solids, he will still probably *feel* more hungry b/c he's used to solids. I can almost promise you that once he starts taking less milk at night he will take more during the day, even while he is taking the same amount of solids. The problem is not the ratio of milk to solids - the problem is the ratio of how much he's getting at night vs how much he gets during the day. Whether it's milk or solids is irrelevant (as long as he's getting enough milk to be nutritionally balanced that is).

[jendewit]

I think you may be right.  Definately give your hunch a try.  How much does your LO weigh now?  I do something a bit different then the book with food.  What I do is when DS wakes I give him his solids for breakfast, followed right after with his bottle.  I do this with every meal.  I was thinking that what you may want to try is giving him a bottle when he wakes and put say 6-7oz in it.  Let him drink what he wants and then follow with his solids.  That way he will hopefully take more milk and less solids on his own.
Also, don't be too worried about having to throw a cat-nap in there.  If he needs then he needs it.  There is no rule that says 8 month olds must have 2 naps a day.  Once you get the NW worked out the 2 naps will happen again.  Until then try to go with the flow a bit.  Put him down when he needs it and follow your guts.  One more thing, you are right.  Changes to routine take at least 3 days.  I have found that all the way though these past 11 months.  So be patient!!  I hope you will get some sleep yourself soon.  {{HUGS}}

[Tracyxx]

Hi Girls,

Just a quick update on how things are going and i could really do with more advice as i don't seem to be getting very far  .

Our current EASY for the last 1-2 weeks.........

6.00:   New E/W time between 5.30-6am
7.00:   Milk 6oz (Always offer 8oz)
7.30:   Breakfast
8.30:   Nap after 2.5hr "A" time (Normally only Naps for 30mins or the very occasional 60mins)

11.00: Milk 6oz (Always offer 8oz)
12.00: Nap after 3hr "A" time (Again normally only 30-60mins at most)
12.30: Lunch (Prefer to give before Nap but only possible if he has had a 1st Nap of at least 60mins)

3.00:  Milk 6oz (Always offer 8oz)
4.30-5: Dinner
6.00:  Bath
6.30:  Wind down & Bedtime Milk 6/7oz (Always offer 8oz)
7.00:  Bed

1am:             NW 1: Always wakes around 1ish so I still feed & change him at this time as I don't feel he is ready yet to go 7pm-6am.
3-4am:          NW 2: PUPD him back to sleep
5.00am:         NW 3: PUPD him back to sleep
5.45-6:          Wakes for the Day


NIGHTFEEDS:  Things have slightly improved as i had decided to slowly drop his nightfeeds but then one night he went with only 1 feed through the night so even though it was a one off it let me see he could do it so i stuck with it, but i felt that going from 3/4 feeds down to none was too much so i decided to let him keep 1 feed for now where i would feed & change him but he used to have his last feed at 6.30pm then a dreamfeed at 10.30, then he would wake at 1.30, 4.30 then 6am so i have been giving him his 6.30pm bedtime bottle & a dreamfeed at 10.30pm them using PUPD to get us to the morning as he is still waking every few hours, but a few lovely ladies on here advised to drop the dreamfeed and let him wake himself rather than disturbing him so if i put him to bed at 6.45-7pm and leave him he doesn't wake till around 1am so i have started leaving him till he wakes which is normally after 5/6 hrs of sleep then i feed & change him and put him back down but then he only sleeps until 5am so I really have to fight with him to get him back to sleep which normally takes 15/20 mins then he sleeps for another 30 mins waking for the day at 5.45-6am.

NAPS: Things havn't really improved with our naps, i started him on a "A" time of 3hrs but it seemed to be a bit much for him in the morning after all his N/W so i reduced his "A"'s to 2.5hrs then 3hrs but he is still only napping for 30mins with the odd 60mins here and there for both naps.  I have just read that babies with a short 1st "A" time could be just trying to extend their night sleep so should i try to slowly increase his first "A" to 3hrs+?, as he did nap for 1.5hrs for both naps the day i pushed his "A" to 4hrs but he was really cranky for the rest of the day which was why i assumed he was way O/T so reduced them right down again.

EW: Things have gotten really bad as we started at 7am then 6.30am, then 6am and now its 5.30-5.45 at the lastest and i just cannot extend it, could this be caused by his new short 1st "A"?

MILK INTAKE:  Milk is the only problem we have resolved as by enforcing the 4hr EASY and stopping him snack feeding every 2hrs he is now taking 25+oz a day compared to the 12oz he was taking 2 weeks ago.

I am open to all opinions good or bad  

Tracyxx