Nutrition/sleep problems with 10 m old need help want to get on an easy routine.

[Scoones]

So my daughter hardly eats anything.. And is breastfeed and I need to wean from it in 1 month to go to work.. She has never spends a long time on my breast so I'm not sure how much she is even getting from it...But this is our routine right now. for the last few days.
Wake -any where from 8:30 till 9:00
She still wakes for feeds at Night so is not hungry first thing a.m
Nurse -1 hour after wake up so 9:30 or 10 (5 mins per side)
Activity-
Breakfast -1 hour after nursing. Usually not much. 2 tsp of cereal and couple small pieces of fruit. I offer formula in sippy cup and will drink 1-2 oz
Activity-
Nap 11:00 or 11:30 for 1 sometimes 1.5 hour
Wake- 12:30 or1:00
Activity-
Nurse- 2:30 (5mins per side)
Activity-
Lunch- 3:30 this is a battle she seems so tired by this time especially if she woke at 12:30 I feel like I am shoving food in her mouth. 1/2 jar of veggie fruit blend baby food or meat and veggie also offer finger food veggies and will just play with them. Plus 1-3 oz formula. She is in a sleepy coma it seems.
Nap- 4:00 ish - 5:00 ish
Activity-
Dinner- between 6- 6-30 this is when she eats the best. 1 jar meat and veggie baby food. Minigo tougher or cheese. Pieces of fruit she will eat quite a bit. I think. Ause she is not too tired. And hasn't had a breastfeed first.
Activity-
7:45 start bedtime routine
Nurse- 8:00 (5mins per side)
Plus 2 oz formula.
Asleep between 8:30 to 9
Seems to take her a long time to settle at night sometimes. I can't determine if it's cause she has not enough wake time before bed or overtired.
Wake- around 1:20, I give her time to see if she wi go back to sleep, 40 mins to 1 hour. She has done done it once in past.. I go to her and try to settle her but she seems to freak out until I
Nurse- I Do6 mins per side.
Sometimes she is put down asleep sometimes not. But will fall back asleep within mins.
Wake-6 or 6:30
Same as before give her time, no luck then..
Nurse- 7 or 7:30.
This is why she is not hungry at 8:30 or 9.
And I feel terrible because she has lost out on 2 hours sleep due to me seeing if she will settle back on her own. I want to stop night feeding!! It's just me so no dad to go resettle her.and I've tryed pick up put down and shhh pat. And she will just freak out for another hour while trying it. Then I give in and feed because she is loosing too much night time sleep.
Is it because she is not eating enough during the day and needs these night feeds or is it habitual waking??  Ive done dream feed at 10:30 or 11: she will not wake at 1 is and sleeps till the 6 night wake.
I have to go back to work soon and need to wean bf and don't know how that's gonna work either. I'm so lost..

[*Ali*]

Hi hun, we have some similar problems and to be honest I do feel a lot of it is habitual at night. I think she is definitely going to protest and cry for a feed because that is what she is used to so you will need to actively wean the night feeds to get rid of them. Is she going to sleep independently for naps and BT?

Are you wanting to completely wean the BFing or just the NFs? I know some mamas like to just keep the morning and BT BFs once they return to work. What do you think she would do if you offered a small bottle instead of a BF at the NWs? I'm just thinking that would offer less comfort and might not be worth her waking for them. Although of course you don't want to swap one prop for another it might be easier to limit what she is taking over time.

I don't think what she is eating sounds too bad at all. Remember her tummy is only as big as her fist so meals of that size will fill her up. My DS1 was a big eater at breakfast but DS2 is like your DD and prefers a big dinner. I notice there aren't many carbs in there. Will she eat pasta or rice to help fill her up. What about yogurt? I can get more in if I cut meat and veggies into bitesize pieces and put them a couple at a time on the high chair tray for him to feed himself. Slow-cooked meat is a favourite here as it is easy to mush up with their gums.

Looking at your routine I am wondering if you could move that second BF to straight after the morning nap. She will probably take less and be hungry for lunch earlier. My DS won't eat when tired either.

I also think perhaps she is getting too much day sleep. I know there is no way my ds2 would be able to handle 2.5hrs of naps unless it was one long nap with 4hr+ A times either side. Have you tried capping the second nap to 45 or even 30 mins? We tend to only get 1 NW (at 3 or 4.30) on days with less sleep and a decent A time bed.

A couple of times I have done pd (at this age there is not really any pu to it) with a firm hand and lots of soothing words and while it has taken 1-2hrs he did then sleep through for 5hrs+ after so I don't think he was really hungry. I feel limited in when I can resettle without feeding if it means crying though as I don't want to wake ds1 or DH if it is 5am and they wouldn't get back to sleep yk? I actually used pd and wo with my ds1 at 12.5mo to wean a NF that reestablished itself after an illness at 10mo and it took a week of some long sessions but he never had a NF again and sttn after that.

Your WU and BT are quite late, will that work for you when you go back to work or will you need her up and ready earlier? I'm just wondering if you could keep her up at the 6.30 WU and start the day then.

I'll be listening for any better ideas you get from others

[Scoones]

Hi thank you for the advice!! I am wondering now too if she needs less daytime sleep.. Yesterday we were out and late getting home for her 4:00 nap It was 4:30 and when I put her downshe had an overtired nap because it was 30 mins on the dot. But I put her in bed at 8:30 and she had only one nw I have had this occurrence happen before too looking at sleep logs. The nw was at 5:50 quick feed and right back to sleep till I woke her at 9. That's the most amount of sleep at night she has had in a while. Which is the amount they should get.. Today now She is having a hell of a time even going to sleep she's been in there dice 4 and it's 4:30 and still not asleep. Yes she goes to sleep on her own with paci. At naps and bed. So my question is now she seemed to only last 2.5 hrs wt in the am, or else we get a melt down and she will not go to sleep easy. I assume I stretch this out slowly. Or do I keep this time and do a 3.5 wt in afternoon cause 3 is not working today. And no that is another issue I am going to have. I will need her up way earlier when work comes. And I am thinking I want to keep a couple bf morning and night, would be doable.. When work comes I like the bonding.. I've read somewhere that too much crib time causes long nw too on days when she won't go to sleep for a while (sometimes an hour at by today's nap has been 33 mins so far) I oviously need help with my schedueling. If they don't go down after an hour what do you Guys do?

[Scoones]

Could I keep nt the same and just move morning wt slowly to where I need it to be?

[katie80]

Hi there, Ali's given you great advice. I was going to chime in on the routine as well. I definitely think you should start stretching that morning A time out to at least 3, then 3.5 hr. If she gets really cranky, find a low-key activity to do and push her just 10-15 min more every few days (unless you feel like she's getting OT, then you can stay at one time a little longer). After pushing that nap out, then she can do a 30-45min CN in the afternoon to get her to bedtime. As for the nap refusal, if it's been 45min-1hr, I usually just get them up and either do an early BT or try to APOP a small CN if possible.

With regard to BT and morning WU, I would move both of them back a little. If you're cutting the pm nap, you're going to still want to aim for between 11-12hr night sleep.

Finally, I think Tracy's advice on eating would say that she's likely not going to be as hungry for solid food if she's still eating during the night. The routine tweaks sound like they will help with maybe one or both NFs. Otherwise, I like Ali's idea of offering a bottle of either EBM or formula and then gradually reducing that to get rid of them. A bottle seems easier to reduce than a BF. I also agree with nursing right after the morning nap, so you can offer lunch earlier when she's not as tired.

[Scoones]

Perfect I will. Attempt both. I will start morning earlier by 10 Mins every couple days and keep nap time the same. I have a month and a half before work comes, and I don't want to shock her with mom being gone all day and starting a new routine all at once. That may cause more NW. And as for night feeds. She doesn't use a bottle and I don't want to introduce one, but I guess I will try to offer formula in sippy cup...so should I give the NF like this then water the formula down? If then it becomes just water and she still wakes for comfort/advice on Pd -we sleep trained with controlled crying, she likes to hold my hand, well when we started getting her to sleep on her own. But she flips all over the place and seems like a firm touch she rolls to get away from.. Its like she wants me there but she doesnt want me touching her. But she crys hard if im not? Should I just offer my hand to hold like before, could this take hours for many concecutive nights? I guess I should let you guys know I have not read Tracy's book. Cheney was Colic and it seems i could not catch up to life when she was really little... Then the serious sleep problems occured.. Short naps nw every couple hours.. We have come along way. But I am farmilar with a few of her tequnices and I really like the idea of the EASY routine. I will read before I have another child.. It seems sleep and nutrition are so hard in the first year so far.. Next it will be something else that's hard.. Its nice to have some expert advice. And I aprreciate it

[*Ali*]

Haha, we are not experts just mama's who have been there and believe in Tracy's techniques and philosophy. All moderators are just volunteers who offer their time to support others in BWing.
Since she is an independent sleeper I personally wouldn't hold her hand to sleep, you don't want her waking to hold your hand back to sleep. I would do pd instead. There will be crying and yes it will take a number of nights but if you are there in the room then she will not experience the high levels of stress hormones that leaving her to cry alone can cause. You can sit across the room with your back to her if she is satisfied with that.  If you can get her day time sorted so she is sleeping a little less and eating a little more then hopefully she will drop at least one of the NWs by herself.
If she doesn't take a bottle actually maybe you could just offer water in a dippy in case she is thirsty.
If she is happy in the crib but not sleeping when you put her down I would leave her to it until the end of the nap. Unless you think she is UT and you may have put her down too early and you want to try again later then I would get her up and do a short A time before trying again. If she is upset I would either do pd or again get her up if you suspect UT. I can see how crib time in addition to naps would contribute to NWs but I would think if she is going to miss the PM nap completely then time spent resting in the crib will help avoid OT until EBT.
If you decide to go with pd then make sure you read this to check you are doing it right for her age http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=208990.0

[becj86]

I've tryed pick up put down and shhh pat. And she will just freak out for another hour while trying it. Then I give in and feed because she is loosing too much night time sleep.

This is the reason shush/pat and PUPD aren't working - every time you give in and feed, you reinforce for her that if she cries long enough, you will feed her. Its really important when you use a sleep training method that you stick with it until LO falls asleep, then if she wakes again (even if only 5 mins later) feed if you choose.

Some LO's just need a night or two with less NF's to eat more in the day and shift the calories that way. You could also offer milk instead of water with solids to sneak in some calories, especially with dinner.

[Scoones]

I realize my post are now in nutrition section rather than sleep... Sorry. So with a little less daytime sleep we are getting 1 NW. Now I need a little advice with p/d to wean from this night feed. What happens if we do put down all the way until wake time? Do I then Do a dramatic wake up and nurse her? And if this is the case am I not just teaching her to cry for a couple hours then I will feed her, or do try to skip the b/f in the am and offer breakfast? I cannot see her not flipping out demanding a b/f while putting her in the high chair. And I don't want solids to be a negative experience either. Or what if we do p/d and it takes a couple hours and she falls asleep just before wake time. Do I let her sleep in? For how long? And this will completely throw off our day. And then one more question. So pushing the morning wake time I'm at 2.75 rather than 2.30 now. We are waking at 8:45am nap at 11:30. Wake at 1:00. Nap 2 is at 4:00 doing 45 min. I still put her in bed at 8:30 as it has been taking her at least half hour to 45 mins sometimes an hour to fall asleep? I just don't know why it takes her so long. On pm map refusal days I do an in bed 8pm and it takes 2 mins for her to fall asleep. And naps she takes most 10 mins.

[katie80]

What happens if we do put down all the way until wake time? Do I then Do a dramatic wake up and nurse her? And if this is the case am I not just teaching her to cry for a couple hours then I will feed her, or do try to skip the b/f in the am and offer breakfast?

What time is that NW at? Is it almost the same time every night or does it vary? If it's at the same time, you might try W2S (wake-to-sleep) before PUPD, because PUPD is more difficult as you get closer to morning. Or, you can start trying to reduce the feeding time by a few min every 3-4 nights and see if you can't get her to drop it on her own. But, if you do go the PD route, yes, you would PD til morning wake time.  What I normally did in this instance was then to walk out of the room, close the door behind me, and then yes make it a bit dramatic wake up.  Open the curtains, say good morning, give her a kiss and go nurse her (in the light somewhere ). I do beleive this is different than in the MOTN, teaching her to cry for a couple hours for a feed, because she doesn't need a MOTN feed in the way she 'needs' a morning feed, iyswim.  In all honesty, we weaned my DD's last NF this way.  DH did it the first two nights at around 5ish am and I had told him that I would count 6am as morning.  So, it got to be 5:50-5:55am and he just brought her to me. Men! I was on duty the 3rd night and luckily she woke earlier, more like 3:30am, I think.  I was able to get her back down and that was it, she started STTN the next night.  She is very textbook, though, so never took long to train.

Or what if we do p/d and it takes a couple hours and she falls asleep just before wake time. Do I let her sleep in? For how long?

I'd let her sleep for an hour, maybe 1.5 if it was a really long session of PD. Yes, your day will be off, but it shouldn't be too hard to get back on track.  Better to be off for a day or two than to have a perpetually OT baby.

We are waking at 8:45am nap at 11:30. Wake at 1:00. Nap 2 is at 4:00 doing 45 min. I still put her in bed at 8:30 as it has been taking her at least half hour to 45 mins sometimes an hour to fall asleep? I just don't know why it takes her so long. On pm map refusal days I do an in bed 8pm and it takes 2 mins for her to fall asleep. And naps she takes most 10 mins.

If she's sleeping 2.5 hr in the morning, I'd limit the pm CN to 30 min and have her in bed sleeping at 8 pm.  Otherwise, you could start limiting the morning nap to only 2 hr.  I think she's getting a tad too much day sleep as you have it written.  Also, keep pusing to get to 3 hr morning wake time as a further inhibitor of NWs.

[Scoones]

The NW is all over the place now that there is only one. Sometimes asxearly as 4 and as late as 6 so i wouldnt know when to do W2S? I will attempt cutting the feed back it seems the last few nights she has been nursing less and less herself it used to be me giving 6 mins each side last few nights, 6 one side 4 the other and she is pulling off. Maybe it will be easy this way. No the morning nap is 1.5 and afternoon used to be 1 now im giving 45 mins. That's 2 hours 15 mins total day time sleep. Is this still too much? and why is it she takes so long to fall asleep at night? Pushing the morning nap is pushing pm CN later but bed time remains the same time, it's still 3.5 hour of A time between CN and BT, and it still takes about An hour for her to fall asleep at BT. Perhaps I just accept it takes her a while to fall asleep. I'm just wondering b/c she doesn't fall asleep until roughly 9:30pm and NW is A for ne where between 1/2 to 1 hr. then I'm getting her out of bed 8:45 and moving it earlier slowly to where I need it to be 7 am. This does not seen like enough NT sleep. Again a scheduling problem.

[katie80]

Ok, yeah W2S won't work then if it's all over the place. Maybe start to offer only one side at the NF and then continue to reduce it every few days. However, at 10mo, I don't think it's unreasonable to still have a small NF somewhere between 4-6am if she's doing a nice, long night.

No the morning nap is 1.5 and afternoon used to be 1 now im giving 45 mins. That's 2 hours 15 mins total day time sleep. Is this still too much?

No, sorry I misread your naptimes yesterday. At this age 2.25-2.5hr day sleep is just fine.  Pushing the morning nap later and the CN later is fine too.  I'm actually wondering if she's taking so long to fall asleep at night because she's OT.  3.5hr of A time after a CN is a lot.  I'd scale it back to 3hr. Also, as you push the morning nap out, you can start to let her sleep longer, up to 2hr and only do 30min (eventually down to 20 or 15 even) for the CN, just to get her to bedtime. I hope that makes sense.

[Scoones]

Yes it does so eventually the pm nap disappears. I have 1 problem though. Today I pushed the am nap 15 more mins. So 3 hr A time from 2.75. And I got a very disrupted (crying while falling asleep and at 30 min transition) and fully awake in less than 1 hour. This means OT? She is cutting teeth though if this happens should I let her have longer pm nap if she will? Thanks again for all the excellent advice and help!

[katie80]

And I got a very disrupted (crying while falling asleep and at 30 min transition) and fully awake in less than 1 hour. This means OT? She is cutting teeth though if this happens should I let her have longer pm nap if she will?

Could be either OT or teeth or a combination of both. Yes, you should definitely let her have a longer pm nap, and do an early bedtime if needed.

[Scoones]

Yesterday was a disaster. And I hope I'm not causing my baby girl to be chronically overtired. She took that crappy am nap and then I didn't make it home with her early enough for pm nap in crib and she fell asleep in car which never turns out good. She slept 30 mins.. I put her in her crib to see if she would go back to sleep but she just played in there for the next 30 mins which then I got her out. So what I need to know now is about EBT. What really is this all about? Cause I put her in half hour earlier and it still took an hour for her to fall asleep and she wasn't asleep till 9. And with EBT we are not expecting 12 hour days I guess right and longer NS..  I've tried before doing much earlier EBT than half hour and she gives me looong NW like 2 hours long.. Do you have any links on info of EBT. And with it am I expecting either a long NW or EWT?