please please I need help with OT baby after bath

[AJK]

Wow.. just had my LO have a half an hour MELTDOWN, screaming, crying so hard he was coughing.... I feel wrecked. For those experienced BW, maybe you can help a "newbie" figure out where I can adjust in order to stop from having an OT baby at the end of the bedtime routine.
My LO is 3 months and he is textbook/spirited. I have trained him to fall asleep on his own after some soothing time in the chair beforehand where I rock a little, talk softly and let him suck my pinky finger (he will not keep a pacifier in). He goes down easily most often and is happy when he wakes. On occassion he will be grumpy and I know that he hasn't had enough sleep and I will try to either get him down again or go for a walk with him in the bjorn and he sleeps like a champ. I would say overall he probably gets 4 hours total of naps throughout the day.

Here is my EASY routine..
E- 7am
A-
S-usually around 800-820 (I am trying to extend his awake time currently as suggested by a fellow BW to try to lengthen his nap). He naps anywhere from 40 mins to 1.5 hours and there is no rhyme or reason for it. I do the same things through the night.
Y

E-10am
A-
S-1115ish, usually sleeps for 1 hour, less if he has a long nap in the morning
Y

E-1pm
A
S-215ish, usually sleeps for 45 mins, and then I walk with him in bjorn to get him to sleep more as I can never resettle him (he is happy when he wakes, but will sometimes turn grumpy after)
Y

E-4pm
A
S-5ish, usually sleeps 30 mins
Y- At 530/545 he wakes from his last nap and this is where my tough night begins. I give him his bath at this time. He loves the bath and is happy but right after is yawning and exhausted from it and possibly from the lack of naps though the day? I have to keep him awake to feed, and I usually give him an early feed at

E-630pm (instead of 7pm as he NEVER lasts)
A-enough to swaddle, change diaper but the awake time is short because by now he is OT and I know it.
S-I'm lucky if I have him settled by 7pm. Usually it's meltdown central and it's 8 by the time he's asleep after a bad habit like letting him suck my pinky to sleep or tonight (I KNOW... bad) I had to let him feed to soothe as he was coughing because he was screaming so hard.

Shh/pat does NOT work and has never worked on my LO. He screams louder and it seems to only stimulate him and anger him more. I have not done the PU/PD thing yet because he's only 3 months. I try first to soothe him in his bed first, but usually end up picking him up.

My questions are....
1. how do I extend a nap if he wakes and is happy when he wakes. I have tried to have a bit of awake time, then put him down again to do a EASASY, but no luck. Is my LO not getting enough sleep in the day and therefore by the end of the day he is OT?
2. I want to remain consistent with my routine as a friend BW says don't keep changing it, but when should I give his bath? earlier in the day and not do it as part of the bedtime routine as it seems to tire him too much at the end of the night?
3. Could it be that he just knows that it's "bedtime" now as opposed to naps as he goes down so easily for naps?

I feel at a total loss as to how to change my routine in order to help him from becoming OT and having to cry like that. It breaks my heart and I feel like I need a stiff drink afterward!!!

Sorry this is SUPER long.

Thanks

[AJK]

3 month old, breastfed...

I didn't dreamfeed at first and my LO was going to bed at 7pm, waking at midnight, 3am and 7 to start the day again. I started to dreamfeed in order to try to 1. extend her sleeping time, but 2. to get her used to feeding at 10pm rather than midnight as I can't stay awake until midnight, but I'm usually still up at 10pm and go to bed right after.

Since i started the DF at 10pm, he wakes at  1am and 5am and then I wake him at 7am to start the day. He's not hungry if I feed him from both breasts at 5am, so I feed one side and then a full feed at 7am. So.. he's getting an extra feed through the night now but sleeping no more?

Last night I thought I'd not do the DF and see what happened because I have now been doing it for 6 days straight and it doesn't seem to help. Well he woke on his own at 1045pm anyway and then was so upset that he cried and cried and it took me until 1am to settle him. THen he woke at 2am to feed and 530am to feed again and then I had to wake at 7am again to start the day.

So, I guess I"m going BACK to the DF tonight and sticking with it, but I almost wish I stuck with the original midnight, 3am and 7am. At least he was waking up when I wanted him too and I didn't have to wake to give a half feed.

It's all messed up.... Is this normal?

[amayzie]

hmm- yeah- the DF can work for some and not others... if ou arent getting more of a stretch i'd try dropping the DF again and seeing if it goes back to normal after a couple of nights. I'd still feed him when he wakes- so if it's close to the DF time just feed him- but hopefully he'll get back into a normal pattern.

[AJK]

Thanks for your reply,
I did the dream feed again tonight and he
Slept until 1:47 this time instead of 1 so
I'll see if he wakes at 5 or 6 this morning and
Make my decision soon about whether to
Drop it or not. He was harder to settle tonight.
I'm waking twice in the night
Regardless. Do you think he will get used to
Eating at 10pm (df) if I stick with it? I'd like
To get him feeding at 10pm as opposed to
Midnight because then I go to bed only to wake
Two hours later.
It doesn't harm him having an extra feed does it?
Do you think the df is disrupting his sleep?

[amayzie]

The dream feed can disrupt sleep for some- but for others it works really well. We LOVED it in our household! Also a night owl like you! Usually you give something 3 days to a week to see if it works- and you've done that already with the DF- which is why i wonder if it does's suit your LO   There's not MUCH harm in it- except that he may want to have more to eat at night than in the day. As long as it's more than 3 hours apart (or 3 hours apart or so) then go with it... HE should though be getting at least one stretch of longer at night.

[AJK]

He's not getting a longer stretch and now i
Have been trying to settle him for a straight hour!
From 2-3am. I don't want to let him cry but
I can't settle him.....
Ok hour and fifteen, had to pick him up after trying to place my
Hand on his chest and tell him it was night
And he was supposed to be asleep (I know
he can't comprehend that). I held him tightly
And let him suck my finger for a minute and
Then put him back down. He's finally asleep
Now.
I'm not sure if this is just regular bad night
or if he's mixed up from the DF. He woke up
at the 2am feed because he pooped and I
Had to change his diaper. He was wide awake
and was smiling and cooing (pretty cute but
I ignored him didn't speak and Reswaddled
.)
I don't want to keep flipping back and forth.
It's day 6 today and over seven days yesterday
I didn't do he feed and he screamed for an hour

[amayzie]

Good idea not to let him cry it out alone- he is just confused- and at this age it could be anything! HE could have an upset tummy- or just want a mummy cuddle. It's up to you whether to continue with the dream feed. As in this time it's not changed anything really i'd just not bother with it and TRY to go to bed a little earlier (fellow night owl here- so know that's easier said than done!). Give him a few days to get used to the night without the DF and he should settle again.

[fosterfam889]

((Hugs)) I just want to add a few things:

1. You said you BF, do u offer your breast at the DF? When I started the DF with my son, I found it very difficult to get him to take a full feed as he was already tired and putting him up against me made him drift right back to sleep. I started pumping at about 10/10:30 and would then bottle feed the expressed milk at the DF. This way I could trigger his sucking reflex, hold him out away from me, and he would just drink and drink with his little eyes closed. This helped me get more in him for the night and let me actually see what he was getting.

2. What does your afternoon look like? Are you cluster feeding before bed? To get them to drop NFs you have to offer more calories during the day. At that age we were feeding every three hours and then would cluster in the evening at about 4, 6 and right before going down at 7:30/8. Then I experimented with DF times and found that ds responded better to an 11 DF. A little later than I wanted to stay up but it became worth it to drop that middle of the night feed.

My son is exclusively BF and started sleeping to about 5/6 am at 3 months and then eventually stretched to 7. You may hear that for breastfed babies that is the exception however even in Tracy's books she says they can do it. Every LO is different but personally I felt when I began cluster feeding and implementing DF it really made the difference at night. I also would always throw in an extra ounce or two in the DF bottle just incase ds wanted it or was going through a growth spurt.

Hth!

[AJK]

Hi again,
Thanks for the replies everyone. Well, I had a bit of a success last night in the end. To answer your questions first though...

1. I do offer the breast during the dream feed. My husband started to do the bottle and I would pump but he's been working nights so I'm on my own. I was going to do that tonight actually because I find that when I flip him from one breast to the other that he wakes more than I would like. I also wanted to see what he was getting. So thank you for the tip!

2. I don't cluster feed actually. I can't figure out when to cluster feed in my routine because the book says 4-6 or 5-7. My afternoon is that I feed at 4pm, then he goes for his nap around 515ish for 30 mins until 545 and then I give him his bath (I have another post with this issue as well) and feed him at 630 (earlier than the 7 feed which would be the 3 hour interval) because he's so OT by then after his bath that he NEVER makes it until 7 without a meltdown. So I moved the feed up to 630 and try to have him down by 7 which still leads to a very OT baby who isn't happy so I'm REALLY trying to figure out my bath and where to have it in the day. If I feed at 4, should I feed again at 545 when he wakes and then again at 630? I thought that was too much.

So back to my success... (haha). I fed my LO at 146am last night (so it was closer to 2am than 1am) and then (as you can see in a previous post) it took me 1 hour to get him settled. He ate a LOT so I'm thinking that maybe it was his tummy. Also, I think the sucking thing is becoming a bit of a prop when he is OT but it's the ONLY thing I can do to settle him. But then I expected to wake up 2 hours later at 5am (which is his usual time over this DF week, but he woke at 6:52am!!!! I couldn't believe he lasted that long! Anyway, so the night was better. I think I"m going to stick with the DF again tonight at 10pm. I tried to push it later to 1045 one night which is probably too far a push, but he woke up before my alarm went and he didn't settle for two hours!

I'll get my husband to do the DF in a bottle tonight as it's his night off work. Why do you hold your LO away from you during DF, because he/she can smell you?

Thanks. AJK

[fosterfam889]

Yayyy for the success! So basically you had only one NF (minus the DF) that is definitely progress!

I see what you mean about the cluster feeding. Do you mind posting your day in EAS format. It can be a little easier to see and we can see where maybe you can fit in a extra feed in evening.

As for the bath, do you think your LO gets more stimulated after a bath? I have read that some babies it can actually pump them up rather than wind them down. If that is the case, you may want to switch it in the routine. But before you try that, post your EASY. I would think that if LO is getting up around 5:45 after a catnap he should be able to last 1hr 15 min (to make it to 7) at this age. So there may be something going on during the day that is causing him to be so OT by the evening.

Also, you say it took him an hour to settle? What does your DF look like? Do you turn on lights? Unswaddle him or change his diaper?

I found that the best scenario for my LO was to keep his room as dark as possible because the slightest sign of bright light would bring him fully awake. Since my bedroom is across the hall from his I would turn a lamp on in our room and leave his bedroom door open to let just a little bit of light in. Or I would turn the hall light on and keep his door shut, so just the light from the crack of the door frame would illuminate the room. Basically I used the LEAST amount of light I could. I kept his white noise going and I never unswaddled him. Also, if he was very limp and sleepy when we finished I did not force a burp, I would just lay him back down in the crib. If they are that relaxed, they usually don't have issues with not burping. And I never changed his diaper unless I heard or smelled something.

I have always held LO away from me when I bottle feed for 2 reasons: 1. I was desperate for nighttime sleep and was trying everything and yes, I had read that them being up next to you can make them cozy and too sleepy to eat which I didn't want to happen.  and 2. DS was in the NICU for the first 6 days of his life. He is my first and that is how they taught me to feed him (I was BF and supplementing with bottle feeds of my own milk to get enough calories into him back in those days) It honestly wasn't until about 2 months ago I realized that I could cradle him while I fed him, but by that point he was so used to taking a bottle the other way, he actually takes one better if I hold him out from me. Plus I can look at his sweet face while he sleepily takes his bottle- a precious moment I enjoy.

You mention sucking as a possible prop. Does LO use a paci? How does your LO do when going down for naps? Does he use any props at all (nursing, rocking, bouncing, paci etc?)

[AJK]

ok so here is my day....

E-7am
A-usually we play with some toys and talk
S-8am- usually he doesn't last longer in the morning. I tried to extend it this morning but he was yawning and then started to cry when i swaddled him which usually means I missed the "window".
Nap time can be anywhere from 45 mins to 1.5 hours. Today it was 50 mins and then I put him in the bjorn and walked around the block twice and he slept for the 20 mins extra
Y

E-10am
A-usually have him in his bouncy chair while we have breakfast, etc, clean.. put on some music for him etc
S-1120am- nap is so varied. if he had a long one in the am then the second one may not be as long. Or vice vers. Usually it's 45-1.5 hours
Y

E-1pm
A-I usually like to get outside at this time. Sometimes he will sleep early if he's in the stroller or bjorn
S-215ish- if I don't take him out he really only has about 50 mins
Y

E-4pm
A-play
S-515ish- nap only 30 minutes always at this time. Once i had to wake him, but usually only 30 mins
Y-Bath time straight after at 545.

So... all in all I know he's short on sleep through the day. I am just now trying to extend his awake times by 15 mins to see if that will extend his naps. I also try to mellow the play down earlier to keep from overstimulation.

He does seem to be stimulated by his bath. When I take him out he's chatting and squirming all around, kicking his legs out and arms. Then I put on a diaper and pj and by the he's OT and grumpy and I have to try to last to 630pm to feed him.

I just don't know how to make his naps last longer. He usually wakes up happy and content too.

Thanks.

[AJK]

Sorry forgot to mention about the DF. So I keep the lights off completely and leave the bathroom light on just enough so I can see what I am doing. Switching breasts seems to wake him up a bit so I'm going to do as you say and try the bottle. I try to burp him for a few seconds. Sometimes he lets a big one out and sometimes nothing. When I go in the room at 10pm a creak in the floor or something will seem to make him stir a bit so I assume that he is sort of in his awake time of sleep cycle?

The hour settling was because I put him down and he started to cry. Not sure why, so I picked him up and then he did a major poo explosion so I had to change his diaper. Then he was fully awake and smiling and cooing and wanting to talk (so cute, but so annoying all at the same time! ha!) So then I had to settle him down and it took awhile.

I dont give him a pacifier because he continually spits it out. I wish I could! I let him suck my pinky finger while we have our soothing downtime in the rocker before putting him in the crib. He's so much better now and goes down within minutes usually. (I don't let him suck to sleep). But lately.... and only at night, never really at naps, he starts to cry and then I let him suck my finger a little and sadly he falls asleep (which I KNOW is a bad habit, but I really don't know what to do about it because its' either 3 mins of sucking before I sneak my finger out, or an hour of crying.

Anyway, any advice is welcomed!

[fosterfam889]

Hey AJK,

I just replied to you in your DF forum asking you for your EASY but here it is! So let's have a look.

Okay, first nap...when he stays up from 7- 8:20 is that when you usually get the 1.5 nap? Likewise, are you getting the 45 min nap when he goes down around 8?  A 3 month old can stay up a little longer than an hour so if this is the case, he is probably UT and from there gets into an UT/OT loop (which are awful!! I am addressing my own UT/OT loop with my 6 month old who I am beginning to stretch his awake time- not fun!)

Looking at your schedule I think he is OT by the evening which is why he is melting down. The suggestion to start stretching his A's is a good one. Start with your morning A first. If you get a good nap when you he stays up 1:20 then keep him up for 1:20. A 1.5 nap is great- it's considered restorative so if you don't get a full 2 it's not a big deal.
From there, you may find that keeping LO up for another 1.20 works or he may need a shorter or longer one. This is where it's trial an error and I have to say, I struggle with my own LO in this area so I may not be of too much help as far as insight goes with this particular issue....might want to check out the nap forum.

However, that being said I can tell you what we did in the evenings with my son.

At 3 months he would take his catnap from 5:15-6. I would feed him, have a short A (i'm talking like 15 min..maybe a short walk or something) then we would do bath at 6:45. He would be out of the bath and in pj's by 7/7:15 ( At this point I would feed him again  - although it had only been about an hour some nights since his last feed, the LAST thing I would do is top him off before bed. Basically, we would NOT have A after that feeding. I would then swaddle, turn on his white noise and off to bed he went.

My LO's evening fluctuated based on his cues, if he was pleasant and doing fine in the bath, I'd let him stay in longer. If he started getting grumpy I'd hurry things along but I ALWAYS fed when he first woke from the catnap and the last thing we did before bed.

I know EASY is meant to avoid "feeding babies to sleep" so they can become independent sleepers, but we have never had a problem with that and Tracy has rec. it in her book The Baby Whisper Solves All of Your Problems. So you could try that routine and see if it helps, your times may be different than mine but I think eliminating any A after his last feed and getting that extra cluster feed may help with the NF stretches.

Hope some of this makes sense!

[AJK]

Thank you so much. It's so nice to be able to
talk to someone about all of this. My husband is
great but he just follows my lead and I have no
family around me so it's hard sometimes.
Im OT myself for sure and feel pretty stressed
about what to do an what not to do sometimes.
I am going to try what you say because I have
Topped him up a little some nights before bed
but then I'm just down on myself thinking I just
Nurses him to sleep. Other mums think I'm crazy
Having my baby on a routine and sometimes
I just want to throw in the towel and let him sleep in
My arms or whatever. But I know it's best for him and
that's why I'm making the effort and sacrifice because
I'll tell you it's not been easy to get even this far.
He just woke from his cat nap now so I'm going
To go an feed him because it sounds like we are
on the same timing.
Thank you again so much. Makes me feel much
Better just sharing
First baby and so it's all new.
AJK

[fosterfam889]

Absolutely!! I am in the same boat just a couple months ahead of you I definitely don't have all the answers but I can assure you that EASY is worth it! It doesn't promise there won't be glitches and hard phases along the way, but it does make it much easier to get through them. My friend and I had babies 6 weeks apart. I put my son on EASY within the first month while she kind of flew by seat of her pants and did whatever. (she has a lot of friends who do the same) 4 months later she was barely sleeping at night as she had a baby who was waking every 1 1/2 to 2 hrs to feed. I started helping her with EASY as she is a full time working mom who doesn't have time to do much research and within two weeks she was stretching from DF at 11 til 5 or 6 AM. So it works and it's worth it! It takes some tweaking along the way as every baby is a bit different but the results are very rewarding!

ps- shh/pat has NEVER worked for my son, but sometimes just firmly placing my hand on his chest does work, just in case you haven't tried that one.

I would work on your DF and NFs first and then post in the Props forum to see if anyone has any ideas about the pinky sucking thing...I have been thinking about that all day and am not sure what to suggest for that!

I know its tough, especially when you haven't had sleep (who knew sleep was really THAT important huh?) but you are making progress and you will see the benefits! And don't worry if LO has an explosive diaper and you have to turn on lights and get him all stirred up...that's just one of those things we can't control and he'll bounce back.