Author Topic: Help with solids and milk for 6mo  (Read 22933 times)

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Offline druidyss

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Help with solids and milk for 6mo
« on: August 15, 2013, 15:32:29 pm »
My daughter (I have no idea what the abbreviations or codes are... DD, DS1...Only know LO is little one?)... she is over 6 months.  If you count a month as 4 weeks, she would be 7 months tomorrow, if not then she would not be 7 months until September 1st.  But she is over 6 months and exactly 27 weeks and 6 days.  She started solids at 5 months give or take and did really well. She has always been big (9lb, 8 oz at birth) and ahead developementally and feed wise.  Was up to 40 oz a day by the time we began solids.  Always did solids before bottle and had her on 7, 11, 3, 7 easy and the dream feed is long gone. So she is about at 32 oz of intake a day but still sleeps through the night.  This week I decided to try moving her solids to the 7am bottle, 8-8:30 solids/breakfast schedule, but it has made her napping extremely erratic.  As far as I understand the routine for 6-9 months with solids and milk is this:

7am - milk
8am or 8:30am - solid breakfast
9am - nap
11am - milk
12-12:30pm - solid lunch
1pm - nap
3pm - milk
5:30pm or 6pm - solid dinner
7 or 7:30pm - milk before bed

My daughter's bedtime is 8pm.  She set it, attempts to do sooner never worked well being that close to her last feed.  She always had trouble with eating that close to sleeping.  She enforces her schedule pretty much.  She desperately wants her nap even before 9am most times, even though I just woke her at 7am. So waiting to do solids at 8 or 8:30 am is a struggle and now she is having a lot of trouble napping.  She is an angel baby that began sleeping through the night (8pm - 4am) with a dream feed by 2 months and 8pm - 7am by 4 months.  And slept well for her 2 hour naps and a 45 minute to 1 hour cat nap in the evening, but now her naps are not going well at all since I tried the new routine with her feedings.  How am I doing this wrong? Before she began solids well, but by her breakfast time now, she just wants to wind down and go to sleep just by 9am.  Solids that late in her routine seems to be causing tummy issues and making naps a serious issue now.  Anyone else have trouble going to this new food routine with solids?  She has had a lot of spitting up history so we always tried to give a good gap between eating and sleeping and this new routine seems to close that gap a bit.  She is extra burpy at nap time now and actually will cry when I go to lay her down. This never happened before. :/
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 21:00:49 pm by <Catherine> »

Offline Violet's mom

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Re: Help with solids and milk for 6mo
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2013, 19:38:03 pm »
Interesting.  Maybe she isn't ready for it - what made you add the extra feed?  What was her schedule before?  I wouldn't push it if she was doing well on a different routine - go with that!


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Offline druidyss

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Re: Help with solids and milk for 6mo
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2013, 14:53:32 pm »
It is not an extra feed, but just moved to a different time like suggested, but very vaguely in the BWSAYP book. I was going based on the baby whisperer book that between 6-9 months the easy routine could be adapted to the 7am bottle, 8-8:30 am solids breakfast and so on.  Like the other mothers in this post have posted for their 7 month old...  She is about the same age, was doing great on easy since birth, has done great with solids and was sleeping through the night from 8pm-7am without a dream feed and still napping from 9am-11am and 1pm-3pm with a cat nap in the evening, usually after 5pm. So recently I thought maybe it was time to try the new solids breakfast, lunch and dinner schedule. But it went terribly and her naps are completely out of wak now.

Offline druidyss

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Re: Help with solids and milk for 6mo
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2013, 14:59:36 pm »
And now I don't know what to do.  She will not nap now and actually cried when I got to lay her down which she simply does not do.  She was on this schedule:

E 7am
A
S 9am
y
E11am
A
S1pm
y
E3pm
A
S5pm or so
y
E7pm
A
S8pm
y
Dream feed was 11pm but found she no longer needed it and attempts to replace the feed throughout the day did not work because her tummy was at capacity at each feed, taking 8-9 oz between bottle and solids.

She never cries unless she has a burp/wind issues... that is changing as of this week and her 9am nap became 8:19am... she could NOT make it to 9am and then woke up at 9:!2 and has been awake since.  No fever, perfectly fine, i have been consistent with her since birth because I am a control freak, and I cannot find a reason for this change.

Offline Lolly

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Re: Help with solids and milk for 6mo
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2013, 15:33:08 pm »
I think your main issue is that her A times are too short - she is crying going down for a nap because she isn't ready yet, the timing of that first nap is under tired. I would also try pulling bedtime earlier - ideally you want a 12 hour day night, if she is waking at 7am then 7pm needs to be bedtime. You have been consistent since birth but she hasn't, she's grown and changed and her needs are different!

chronological EASY samples, 7-9 months

This link will give you some examples of what 7-9 month olds are doing!

Laura


Offline druidyss

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Re: Help with solids and milk for 6mo
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2013, 17:50:04 pm »
Yes... the short activity times are the problem, but I cannot figure out why they are happening... and earlier this week when I forced the issue to keep her up past her sleep window it went very very badly. She has never had short activity times before.  This week only has she displayed very certain fatigue cues before it is even 8am and began waking early from naps without responding to being put back down to finish it out.  Before that her activity times were appropriate and she welcomed being laid down at 9am and slept until 11am unless poops woke her up.  Now she welcomes being laid down still, but then when she wakes up early she cries when I lay her back down after her diaper change; I pick her up and find a burp was bothering her, go to lay her back down and she cries again, cannot get a burp out but she is obviously tired, so I try laying her back down and then she fusses...  So it is just odd behavior for her and I trying PUPD for the first time because we did not need it before. But I got her "up" for her 11am today and kept her up even though she had been up since 9:12 am and was yawning and yelling at me by 12pm. 

I had not read the BW book until after I brought her home and found that I was already doing a lot of the things recommended, but it did not occur to me to schedule her feeds... I fed her every 3 hours because she left the hospital with a 4 hour clock and I changed it to 3 but she did not need a 2 hour clock with her size and intake.  But when I read about the easy schedule (already picked up the routine naturally) I began scheduling her feeds.  I had her on the 4 hour schedule just in time for her 4 month mark.  She and I have both happily stuck to that plan until i decided to follow the books reccommendation for breakfast at 8:30am after bottle at 7am, though the book clearly states to always give solids first... so that was confusing and ended up going horribly for us...I was simply wondering if anyone else experienced problems transitioning from the regular easy plan with solids before bottle to the modified easy plan with solids added in at 8,12, and 5:30 or 6pm?  Her problems did not occur until we tried it.

I had a working schedule/routine for her and I am not changing it again until she is ready for the different schedule.  And her bedtime is 8pm and it works for all of us and has not been the issue and I am not changing it; whenever I tried 7pm, it was always too soon after her bottle.  She has wind issues and she responds better to an 8pm bedtime, but absolutely no later.  Her activity time now is short and it is a new thing not sure why she is getting so tired so quickly, but the only variable I can think of is trying the new solids schedule.  I kept her up this afternoon after her 11am and she was so overtired but she was able to eventually pass out after her wind down.  Usually getting overtired keeps her wound up, unable to sleep.  She went down right at 1pm (I started an early wind down) but woke up at 1:28 because of a burp.  I think she has gone back to sleep after I fixed that, so hopefully I can get her back on track after this catastrophe.

Offline Lolly

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Re: Help with solids and milk for 6mo
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2013, 18:09:28 pm »
Did you have a look at the link I posted?

I had a working schedule/routine for her and I am not changing it again until she is ready for the different schedule.  And her bedtime is 8pm and it works for all of us and has not been the issue and I am not changing it

Well that's fine - you do what you think is best for your LO, we are just mums here too offering advice based on our own experiences.  You stated in a previous post that she was crying on lying down but you also say she is happy lying down, which is it? If she is showing tired signs soon after wake up then her night isn't long enough - are you waking her at 7am or is she waking her self? Don't forget to that tired signs become unreliable when they get older and can indicate a change of scenery is needed.

If you had a routine that was working for you both then go back to it - you know your DD better than any book does. Solids does make EASY more complicated but try and stick to milk feeds first as they are more important than solids until she is 1 and then solids as part of the A time about an hour after a milk feed.

Laura


Offline druidyss

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Re: Help with solids and milk for 6mo
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2013, 19:08:23 pm »
Yes, I looked at the link and I did not need it.  I explained the crying laying down more in depth and that is what it is.  She is ready for the lay down but her tummy was bothering her. I know how to read her but this week with the solid food change it really mixed her up and I had to improvise based on her behavior. I did PUPD when she cried to try and fix the issue and get her back to sleep.  Sometimes there was a burp, sometimes there wasn't, sometimes she cried, sometimes she let me lay her back down.  I apologize for confusing you on "which is it", but I was having to type fast before she woke up crying again and since this is all out of the norm for me I am having an issue breaking it all down for you. But I have a schedule/routine for her that was working and have already gone back to it. That was not my question though.  My question still remains if anyone else had issues with the new schedule (7am bottle, 8:30am solids, and so on) with solid foods.  And I do solid food first as recommended.  I am not doing milk first because I cannot breast feed and am not of the philosophy that she needs to be on formula forever if I can get her on solid foods more.  If I could breast feed I would be focusing on that more, but I can't so I am doing solids and I am doing it in the way that was recommended by Tracy.  "Always offer solids first"  So I do and she has done wonderfully with it.  Going based on the 6-9 month chart... a child previously taking 40 oz a day in liquid would now be taking 15oz of solids and 25 oz of liquids. She was at 40 oz but is doing just as well with 12 oz of solids and 24 oz of liquid.  So pretty close to Tracy's estimate.  None of this do I have a question or need telling on; I have been going smoothly raising this angel baby since birth, this is our first bump aside from outside interference (family/husband insisting on playing with her while feeding her, my husband introducing the swaddle to her at 3 months when I said no because she did not need it and it was too late for it now she NEEDS it and I am fixing that now too, and my husband overstimulating her right before her naps or bedtime which I will probably never "fix") and I see nothing in the book about it, just a goal description but nothing on getting there.  I understood that between 6-9 months the schedule would change a bit to what a couple of moms have stated above, but I do not see any info on transitioning to this in the book or troubleshooting for it, which apparently is the first troubleshooting I have needed.  My daughter apparently likes routine... so much so that changing it really messes her up, so I do not know how I am supposed to ease her into the "7am bottle, 8am solid breakfast, and so on" routine.  That is my only question and I planned to use this schedule from the book:

7am bottle
8ish solid breakfast
9ish nap
11am bottle
12ish solid lunch
1ish nap
3pm bottle
5ish catnap
6ish solid dinner
7ish bottle before bed

Seemed pretty straight forward, but she did not like it.  She now seems to be back on her regular routine after some hard work with her this AM and afternoon.

Offline Fiver

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Re: Help with solids and milk for 6mo
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2013, 20:08:27 pm »
FWIW, whether a baby is being fed by formula or being breastfed, milk is still the main source of nutrition until they reach 12 months as either contains (on the whole) more calories and/or fat than a lot of the common 'starter' foods for weaning and are a nutritionally complete 'meal', formula being fortified with various different vitamins/minerals (and breastmilk just containing them).

If you can ignore the fact that the information in this link is from a (mainly) breastfeeding related webpage, you'll see the difference between fat/calorie contents on different milks and other foods per oz.  http://kellymom.com/nutrition/starting-solids/babyfoodcalories/

I guess my point is that if you've been doing solids before milk then essentially you are filling her up with food which (unless you're feeding lots of avocado!) isn't necessarily calorie/fat dense.

As Laura said before, the old mantra is 'food before one is just for fun' and worth sticking with if you can so she's getting all the nutrients she needs to grow.
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Offline ZacsMumme

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Re: Help with solids and milk for 6mo
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2013, 20:54:14 pm »
Hugs. Another reason milk is offered first is because babies digestive systems are fragile and immature. Milk breasts or formula contains all the nutrients they need to meet their developmental requirements, if replaced with solids then they potentially miss out on there nutrients. A lot of solids can cause constipation and dehydration as well - Particularly if your LO isn't drinking much water yet. :-\

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Re: Help with solids and milk for 6mo
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2013, 22:42:10 pm »
Please can you tell me in which book and chapter/page Tracy says always offer solids first? I am just curious and would like to read the context for myself as I don't recall ever seeing that advice and am interested in how it fits in with the schedules she suggests which have food an hour after milk.

Btw, DD is dear daughter and DS1 Dear Son number 1. There is a list of abbreviations here if you care to take a look Site Acronyms/Abbreviations - What they are, and what they mean.

I must admit that moving from solids first to milk first is not a problem I have ever seen before as I thought most people following EASY just offered solids an hour later than they were offering milk so never had it the other way around.

We are all just trying to help out here and I can assure you that no one is trying to suggest that you are doing it all wrong.
Cadan Dec 2009 and Colby Aug 2011


Offline Georgena

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Re: Help with solids and milk for 6mo
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2013, 01:09:59 am »
I was really freaked out about introducing solids and how it would effect LO schedule but then someone told me to treat the solids as an A time not an E time and that really helped me sort it, then if she didnt eat anything i knew she was still getting the milk she needed! Its not an easy transition but everyones here to help, ive had some great advice from eveyone on here. Hope you are getting it sorted.

Offline druidyss

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Re: Help with solids and milk for 6mo
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2013, 18:46:57 pm »
I guess my point is that I know she is getting the appropriate milk volume vs solid food volume and that was not my question or issue.  Milk is still her main source of nutrition, that has never changed.  I used Tracy's recommendations as guidance and she is still getting the appropriate balance of milk vs solid intake.  But it is odd to me that we are on different pages as far as a solid food feeding schedule and that right there could answer my question partially.  What you are all saying is that you did not need to transition from solids first or one feeding time to two because you all began solids with it as an activity at 8ish, 12ish and 5 or 6ish?  That may explain a lot. I have found a couple things in the book I reference that seem to contradict themselves and I have had to figure it out for myself.  Her bedtime and intake volume or ratio has never been an issue, and she has followed the EASY routine pretty flawlessly and sleeping well, eating well, and I have been able to tell when to add more to her intake and when she was comfortable and to leave it be.  She wakes herself up at 7am, so I am very impressed with her own little clock.  Even if something goes awry and she gets a later bedtime, which is rare, she still wakes up at 7am.  Very seldom do I go in and have to wake her, but when I do she still seems unaffected and her routine goes on as usual.  My question and problem was routine transitioning because I used the book as a guideline and then it said the goal later was something different and I am a bit confused about that.

What I am able to find quickly that references what I stated earlier,  on pages 96 and 97 of The Baby Whisperer Solves All Your Problems, the quick reference chart that states to give solids first in the beginning and then the bottle.  And in the same chart it lays out a typical routine of doing the exact opposite and feeding a solid breakfast, lunch and dinner, AFTER the bottle and after significant activity time has passed.  So I took it as instructions for in the beginning and work towards the typical schedule laid out in the chart for 6-9 months later.  Then on page 137 in the same book, under the 6-12 month "Intake" section it states very exactly "Give solids when your child is alert and fully awake.  If at first she finds it frustrating, take the edge off her hunger with a bit of breast or bottle. Once she gets the hang of things, always give solids first."  In that same chart it later explains that by 9 months most babies are on [this] schedule, in which it goes on to detail and it resembles the schedule laid out in the chart on page 96 and 97 which seemed to support my assumption about it being something that was transitioned to later. 

I have used this book mostly for guidance on setting up EASY for her and as a guideline on intake and when/how exactly to best approach introduction of solids.  Luckily I have not needed the trouble shooting that is a lot of the book, but I am very thankful for my Angel Baby and know she is to thank for a lot of that, and me putting her on the EASY schedule helped too.  She is very happy. The only time she seemed unhappy with what I have done with her is when I tried moving solids to during her activity time.  Now I reverted back with tail between my legs to her old routine and am skiddish about trying it again.  Understandably I like seeing her happy and have not had to deal too much with her being unhappy.  Not to rub it in for any mothers who did have a lot of trouble either with colic, or a touchy or grumpy baby, I assure you I am very grateful to have her so happy and easy to please and know it could change 100% if I were to have a second.  I had braced myself for any number of problems with her and for some cosmic reason the universe saw it fit that my problems be elsewhere.

I also referenced the book for dream feed phase out which confused me the most, but I suppose that is a topic for another thread entirely. :P

I do appreciate any help or advice; I did not mean to come across as not understanding that comments are coming from a desire to help.  I just will disagree with being told her bedtime needs to change because I have laid out things for her with great consideration, thought and watching her very carefully.  Despite my recent problem with trying this schedule with her, I truly do not feel her bed time or intake is the cause and it being said that another time "needs to be her bedtime" comes across a little harsh to me and does not take into consideration that I may have already tried the earlier bedtime and it did not fit her.  And I am pretty certain she is getting the nutrients she needs to grow because formula is still her primary food and regardless of solid intake before hand, she still gets it all.  I am very confused at the questioning of her nutrition because I have used Tracy's guidelines as guidance and a month ago on July 19th my daughter was 19lbs, 9oz and 28 inches long.  She is very big and extremely healthy, I have very carefully managed the solid intake she does get so that she does not get dehydrated or constipated and she gets water daily in a sippy cup that she holds herself.  There is no issue here other than I am confused about the contradiction about routine for solids. That is all.  Her nutrition is fine, her bedtime is fine, she just did not like it when I tried to hold out solids until 8am.  I mean essentially, if I did milk first, she would fill up on that and I would never have started her on solids?  That is just my take on the contradiction that milk should always come first.  I control her solid intake, but I do not control her milk intake as much, though I do watch how much, and it is by far what she gets the most of. She gets maybe 12 oz max of solids but takes anywhere from 24-32 ounces of milk a day.  And according to Tracy's book, for a baby that once took 40 ounces a day of liquids (which she did but dropped to 36 band did not seem to miss those 4 missing ounces yet), the proper solid vs milk ratio is 15 of solid and 25 of liquid.  Well she gets 12 of solid and about 24 minimum of liquid.  TI just want everyone to understand that though this is my first baby, I am not completely without a clue here and I would just like that to be considered first before I get a lot of assumptions from others on what I am doing wrong as far as nutrition or sleep or what will constipate or dehydrate her.  I have long since been there to make certain I was approaching all those things properly. I am saying this in an explanatory tone, so that you understand where I am coming from, no animosity or anything like that :)  and I truly want to understand where the contradictory views on approaching solids is coming from when I was pretty certain most of us read the same book?  Standing by. :)

Offline druidyss

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Re: Help with solids and milk for 6mo
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2013, 18:49:04 pm »
Oh and she does get a lot of avocado. I use it specifically for the nutrition and to keep her from getting constipated.

Offline *Ali*

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Re: Help with solids and milk for 6mo
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2013, 20:42:43 pm »
 I think it is important to bear in mind that it is sometimes difficult to get across exactly what you mean in text and therefore difficult for a reader to understand that you may not mean things literally or you are only talking about a specific time and things are different at other times.
So when you say in your original post "She desperately wants her nap even before 9am most times, even though I just woke her at 7am. " That seems like *you* woke her at 7 rather than she woke herself and makes us wonder if she was still tired and her night was too short. (forgive my lack of actual quotes I am on an iPad and can only quote an entire post and deleting the unwanted stuff would just be too long so I am copying and pasting instead) Now I know that is not what you were saying but I can see why Lolly thought the same thing before you elaborated.

Again, when you said "She will not nap now and actually cried when I got to lay her down which she simply does not do" I can completely understand why Lolly took this literally. And typically when we see a LO who is crying at nap time when they previously went down ok and they are still on short A times it usually means they need a push in A time.

You also said "but now her naps are not going well at all since I tried the new routine with her feedings.  How am I doing this wrong." Which led us to believe you were looking for advice and suggestion on changes you may wish to consider making.

How close to her naps were her milk feeds before you tried changing the routine? If it was less than half hour or so it might be worth considering if the trouble is stemming from her seeing the feeds as part of her wind down and she is using it to relax. So when you switched the solids to after the milk it got her worked up again and she couldn't get back  into that relaxed mindset. If the gap was more then this probably isn't the case of course. Sometimes though any change will lead to a protest as Lo is simply saying "hey mum what are you doing? This isn't how we do things"  ;D

I had a look at the table on page 96 and saw in the column headed "if breastfeeding, how long" it does say "offer food first and then the bottle or breast". Tbh if I was FF I wouldn't have looked at this column at all but anyway I actually took this to mean at the times Tracy recommends offering solids (8.30, 12.30 and 5.30) you offer solids and then some kind of liquids like a bottle or a BF as a top-up/drink. These days most guidelines suggest offering water in a sippy cup with meal instead. Of course I could be completely wrong and since Tracy is sadly no longer with us we cannot ask for clarification so may never know for sure. It clearly says in both tables though that BFs are on wake up and at times that fall before the solid food so I don't doubt at all that it was not Tracy's intention to start a routine in which solids came first and to later switch that around. I appreciate it could be a little confusing though if those sentences were taken out of the bigger plan outlined in the rest of the book.  :-\

The info Tracy gives in the entire book really was only ever meant as a guide and Tracy herself said many times in various interviews that babies will not all fit exact routines in any book and if there is no problem then there is no need to question why a particular baby isn't fitting into what a book says is typical. The 40oz of formula changing to 25oz is just an example not a guideline. It says "e.g." in the book just so she can explain how the numbers might change.

What we know about a baby's nutrition and digestion has moved on greatly since all of Tracy's books were written (BW SAYP is from 2005!  :o ) and we like to think that Tracy would have changed her advice in line with current research and guidelines if she was still with us. For example the recommended age to start solids has changed from 4mo to 6mo (although Tracy was an advocate for starting at 6mo anyway in BWSAYP) and I don't know where you are but advice from the NHS in the UK is to move very gradually from one offering of solids at 6mo to only beginning to offer a third solids meal at 8mo. And Baby Led Weaning is mostly recommended now as purées are not really needed if waiting until 6mo to introduce solids. Even growth charts have been updated by the WHO. As if it wasn't complicated enough for us new mums, hey?  ::) Those are just a few examples really. So we do need to do more current reading around to make an informed decision based on the most up to date advice. Which I'm sure you have done.  :)


Cadan Dec 2009 and Colby Aug 2011