11 mo always woken up 5-15 times a night

[shurah]

Hello everybody.

A very tired mum of two asking for ideas. I have a four year old and an 11 month old that both share a bed with me. I'm also 12 weeks pregnant. My husband doesn't sleep in bed with us because of the disturbed nights. The troublemaker is my 11 month old little boy who in the daytime is the happiest and easiest little person on earth.

He was born with a clubfoot and wears a pair of boots that are connected with a metal bar in the nighttime. I know it's not comfortable for him but whenever I've let him sleep without it he's still woken up lots so don't think it's the issue. He's easy to put to bed. I quit breastfeeding two weeks ago and he seems to be much happier with bottles than he ever was breastfeeding. Around seven I put his pyjamas and boots on, sing a song cuddling him, then he has a bottle,  I give him his dummy and he's asleep within a minute.

 Between bedtime and midnight he's normally up about five times. He wakes up crying and won't settle without me putting his dummy back in his mouth and lying next to him. Every 2-3 hours he starts waking up every fifteen minutes and becomes harder each time to settle until I've given him his bottle. He has two 240ml bottles twice a night and gulps them down like he's been starving. In the daytime he doesn't eat loads and has two or three bottles of milk. He wakes up around seven in the morning.
The problem is I'm so tired I'm really starting to struggle. I've not dared to stop the night feeds cos he seems hungry. Also I've not managed to move him to another room cos I worry it would be too traumatic since he seems to want to keep on checking I'm there. My four year old doesn't want to sleep in her own room cos she's scared. When I've tried to sleep train my son in the other room my daughter gets hysterical in the other room crying she's scared. My husband often works in the nighttime so I've got no help. Starting to really panic about what's going to happen when the new baby arrives. Any tips or ideas on where to start. Anything would be really appreciated!

[Erin M]

Hi there, welcome! 
A couple of questions--
What dies your son's routine look like during the day?  Does he nap with you or in his room? 

Is he getting 240ml twice a night and then another bottle before bed?  He's basically taking in most of his calories during the night then -- he's hungry but only because he's used to eating then.  You can gradually cut down ounces, you can add water to a smaller number of ounces, or you can cut it out all together. 

You can also work on getting rid of those things in your bed and them move them or you can do it all at once.  Same thing with the dummy -- he can do it himself at his age.  Regardless of how you choose to do it, I imagine you're going to have lots of crying for a few days -- but the idea is that you'll be right there with him while he's crying and helping him learn a new way of sleeping by himself.  Can you talk to your 4 year old ahead of time and explain to her what is going to happen so she's not as scared?

[anna*]

I think if it was me I would work on getting the 11 month old and the 4 year old both into one room - is that an option for them to share? Spend some time - especially with your DD - getting the room really cozy and welcoming and comfortable. I would get her some ear defenders, and practice putting them on when the baby is crying. Set up a whole new bedtime routine. They could have a pretty nightlight so that it's not dark, some soothing lullabies playing on a loop. Equip your oldest daughter with a new special toy and give her things she knows she can do if she wakes up int he night. Maybe set yourself up with a mattress on the floor in there too - you can lie down and rest there in the beginning stages, and later DD can sleep there so she feels close to you. Explain why this needs to happen - because mummy needs rest before the new baby comes.

With the 11 month old, Erin has already given you great advice. I would keep the dummy because he can control it himself and it will be comforting to him to have it when he's transitioning to this new way of sleeping. Yes there will be a lot of crying so you will need to feel strong but you can totally do this yourself. Let your DD know that DS will be crying because he doesn't know how to go to sleep, but she can wear her ear defenders, and mummy is nearby, and her job is to stay quietly in her bed. She could have a torch and some books to look at. I understand this is all easier said than done but what I'm trying to get across is setting them both up for success as much as possible.

My two have a four year age gap and they LOVE sharing a room together. My son loves that he is there 'taking care of' his little sister and she gets comfort from knowing he is nearby. Now that's she's 2.5, when she wakes up she will often call to wake HIM, and then ask him to come and get mummy or daddy (she is still in a cot so can't come herself).

I hope that helps to see there may be a way through this. Please ask questions and come back for more support as you work this out.

[shurah]

Wish I'd seen these replies sooner, thought I didn't get any. Should have just realised there's a lot of posts to reply to! . Thank you so much for replying Erin and Anna! Things have changed quite a bit in a month but unfortunately not in a good way. I've had a miscarriage so the new baby is not an issue anymore. I've managed to wean my little troublemaker of the nighttime bottles and he's started waking up more. My daughter has started sleeping in her own room but comes back into my bed before midnight. My son now wakes up at least once an hour and often more than that. Starting to feel like there's no point for me to go back to sleep. When he wakes up he sometimes settles with his dummy and a cuddle. Often he'll settle long enough for me to count to ten. He looks as if he's asleep but then he'll suddenly kick his legs and cry again.  He often does this 1-10 times before he properly settles to sleep. And then he's up again within 20-60 minutes.

He's routine in the day looks like this.
6 up and playing with sister
7 porridge
9 -11 nap and bottle
12 dinner
14-15 nap and bottle
16/17 tea
18.30 some porridge again
19 bottle and bed

Naptime I do his stretches while he drinks his bottle. Then I give him his dummy and lie down next to him on my bed. Naptime he puts his hand on my face,  closes his eyes and goes to sleep. In the evening it can take up to an hour for him to fall asleep. He tosses and turns, stands up, throws his dummy out of the cot and tries to climb over me to escape.

My husband is on a holiday in two weeks time and thinking of making the changes then. I was thinking of having my daughter sleep with whoever is not doing the sleep training. Thought I'd move little man in their own room and only go to him if he starts crying. Not give him his dummy but leave them in the cot with him if he wants them. Just don't know what I should do when I go to him and he's hysterical. Do I pick him up and give him a cuddle until he calms down? Or just stroke him while he's in his cot? And is it better for me to go to him or try to persuade my husband to do it? Or maybe take turns. Im worrying even sleep training wont help. We've got an appointment with the gp about this on Tuesday and I know she's going to suggest antihistamines. I think that's a really bad idea though. Also the health visitor is going to try and contact some sleep clinic. Can't believe therd doesn't seem to be any help within the NHS in this kind of problems! Feel like I'm getting much more help here! So thanks again!

[anna*]

(((hugs))) I am really sorry to hear about your m/c.

I think your plan sounds good, although personally if sleep was that bad I would just be doing it now rather than waiting for two weeks, just because it can't really get much worse yk? If he is really hysterical you just stay with him. Don't pick him up if you can help it - once he calms down he will just be even more furious when you put him down again. The crying will be intense but you'll be with him. Just prepare yourself for it. Do the same thing for naps and at night.

It sounds like he is trying hard to settle himself but just can't manage, I wonder if he is getting a little too much daytime sleep/too short A times, so is just not quite tired enough at night. You could try doing something like:

6am awake
10am nap 1.5hrs
11.30am awake
3pm nap 45 mins
3.45pm awake
7pm asleep for the night.

What do you think?

[shurah]

Thanks Anna. I know I should try it now but the reason I've not done it is that when I attend to my son in another room my daughter sometimes gets hysterical in the other room. I find that too stressful to deal with and that's why I'm waiting for my husband to be at home to help.

I think you're probably right about daytime sleep. He's often not tired until even half eight or even nine. But daytime is the only time I can sleep when my daughter is at school so I encourage long sleeps. Again this should be easier when DH home. daytime nap he wakes up after an hour. That's when I pop his dummy back in and he sleeps for another hour. Sometimes when I'm desperate I do it again and we end up having a three hour sleep!  Lot of issues to solve.. Thanks for your help again!

[anna*]

Is your son 12 months now? Just thinking I should probably move this thread over to Toddler Sleep board.

[shurah]

Yes he is. Just turned one last week.

[anna*]

Happy Birthday little one

I do think to an extent you are shooting yourself in the foot by encouraging those long daytime naps. Hopefuly by tweaking the routine along with sleep training you can get a better stretch of sleep at night that way you wouldn't need those catch up naps!

[shurah]

Thanks. Will have to look at the naps I think. I think I'm not quite convinced he's problem is with self settling though. Been observing him tonight and it's more that something wakes him up I think. He wouldn't go to bed until 9 tonight. Slept until 10.50 then replugged his dummy himself but cried with the dummy in his mouth until I gave him a cuddle. When he gets his cuddle he falls asleep immediately. He's definitely asleep but wakes up crying after what seems to be anything between half a minute and ten minutes. And this has been going on for almost two hours now. Something is waking him up and I'm thinking is it hunger, pain, what could it be? It's now third night without any milk after seven. He doesn't eat huge amounts in the daytime though. Really don't know what to do. Wish there was a system like my home country had. There they take you in the hospital with your baby, observe his sleep habits for a night or two and then try to sort it out. Just wish I knew what the problem is!

[HenaV]

Hi and welcome to TS!

I am playing catch up. Can you please post your LOs current routine in EAS format so we can take a look?

Thanks

Hena

[KookyK]

I had my (younger - 7 months at the time) baby in a cosleeper cot in my room, dummies, fed to sleep etc and he single best thing to effect his sleep was the move to his own room. Have also removed dummies but that was because he was too young to replug and taught him to self settle. 6 weeks on and there's been a lt of improvement - waking 2 hrly maybe 3 to now waking twice a night (8.5 months old).

Good luck with it all. Great advice here and support - I've found this forum brilliant.

[shurah]

Thanks for sharing your experience KookyK. I am planning on moving him in his own room in a weeks time. Really hoping it'll help.

The daily routine seems to vary a bit. He used to go to bed at seven.  Now I'm lucky if he's asleep by eight . Also mornings seem to be getting earlier with both of my four year old and one year old getting up at half five at the moment. I must be really doing something wrong! ! But here's the easy

6 up and playing
E 7.00
A
S 9-11 (/12) (bottle before bed)
E 12
A
E snack and bottle 14
S 14-15
E 17
A
E 19 filling him up with as much food as he'll take
S 20

He tends to wake up screaming about four times before I go to bed at ten. On a good night he'll wake up every two hours but will go straight back to sleep as soon as I've put his dummy in. After four he wakes up a lot, I think he starts getting hungry then. On a bad night there's no two hour stretches at all but a lot of restless crying and tossing and turning.

Saw a gp today. She didn't examine him but stated there's nothing wrong with him but I have to just do controlled crying. Not the most helpful appointment.

[KookyK]

My 8.5 month old is v low sleep needs but I'm still wondering if the A times should be longer (apart from the last one) and a bit less sleep. I'm pretty sure they start a 2 naps to 1 transition round this age. I'm no expert but I've read these boards a lot in recent months lol!!!

The good thing about DS in his own room is I'm not aware of restless tossing and turning which helps me stay asleep until he's actually properly awake as sometimes the tossing and turning comes to nothing. I'm a v light sleeper and it made me semi awake and on edge anticipating him waking.

Can he replug dummy? Can you practise during waking hours? Would you consider getting rid?

[KookyK]

Ps I always start new things like new room when its a Friday so I can nap on the weekend days