Author Topic: What is going on?!  (Read 4432 times)

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Offline jessmum46

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What is going on?!
« on: September 18, 2014, 07:07:12 am »
DS is 15 weeks, just under 16lbs and EBF. Did long stretches overnight from pretty early on, up to 10-12h, but had kind of settled into a pattern of one NF at 4/5am (no DF). Last 4-5 nights he woke and fed at 1/2am as well and then last night also at 10.30pm so three feeds!

Other relevant bits....he feeds before bed but usually awake going into cot, independent sleeper for all naps. Feeds roughly 3hrly in day, moving towards 4h EASY routine-wise but depends on naps. Usually 5 feeds in the day, had one day this week where he only had four but night was much the same.

Growth spurt? (Is that typical about now?) or are we looking at regression or a sneaky NF prop? 

Offline becj86

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2014, 07:50:04 am »
Sounds like a GS to me. Give it another week if see if they reduce :)

Offline Martini~

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2014, 08:21:13 am »
Around 3-4mo we had the same in terms of more NW but I just resettled them w/o milk. I think now that it was connected with drop in his sleep needs and us going through 4-3 naps transition. DS went to 1 NF (or DF) from around 6-8wo and I just kept it like that, treating all NW before as not-hunger related. He was waking around 10pm sometimes and than around 1-2am sometimes but I fed him only when he woke after 4am. And he seemd to be pretty fine with it as he was easily resettled without a feed before 4-5am, when resettling w/o milk was not an option:).

Around 12wo I introduced a DF and he was STTN since then until dreadful 10 days around 4mo which had to be an awful sleep regression and another drop in his sleep needs:). And then we had beautiful 2,5mo without any NW:).
~Marta

Offline *Ali*

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2014, 08:45:50 am »
It sounds like he is entering the 4mo sleep regression when their sleep rhythms change and they begin cycling between deep and light (or active) sleep having previously spent much more time in deep sleep and they therefore start waking more. Both of mine experienced this. I'm not necessarily recommending the advice but this link explains it http://sleeplady.com/baby-sleep/4-month-sleep-regression/

Cadan Dec 2009 and Colby Aug 2011


Offline jessmum46

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2014, 19:42:06 pm »
Thanks all :)

Bec - I've been treating as a GS, so fed at all wakings.  I guess that's the right thing to do for now?  At what point would you reassess and say no, I've created a problem here?

Marta - interesting, we are definitely needing to be on three naps rather than four but unless at least one of them is a good 2h or more it's a bit of a struggle.  I haven't really tried resettling at night without a feed, kind of because I don't really know how  :-[ he's been a pretty independent sleeper from early on so I don't really have a way of settling him if you know what I mean?  Kind of figure if he just needed to go back to sleep he could do it? 

Ali - yes that does sound about right.  I don't think I really noticed it with DD but it does fit time and 'symptoms'-wise.  How did you handle it with yours? 

Offline Martini~

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2014, 20:21:46 pm »
Katherine, oh I never fighted with him too much:). It was quick assesment for us, i just needed to pat him, rub, take him on my hands and hug, until 3mo he used a dummy so I usually replugged it - if be was still crying it usually meant he is hungry.
When we were closer to 4mo and he was in sleep regression phase, for 10 days or more we has 2NW per night, usually around 1h each. He was looking as asleep during those NW and wanting to sleep, but could not settle for long. When I was rubbing him or touching his face, he usually calmed down and settled, than once again he was crying 5min later. It could take an hour but he wasn't crying like he'll, rather moaning... On and off. I was quite sure it wasn't hunger as he wasn't even too hungry in the morning when he finally woke up:).

So I would just try to resettle, any way you think is suitable. And if it's not working, just feed him. For us it was really a 1-2min decision as he either calmed down when I resettle or not:).
~Marta

Offline *Ali*

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2014, 20:27:58 pm »
I would try to resettle with a little shh pat and offered Colby the dummy (Cadan never had a dummy) but if he didn't settle easily within 5 mins I just fed. As it coincided with GSs they often were hungry anyway.
Cadan Dec 2009 and Colby Aug 2011


Offline Erin M

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2014, 00:57:59 am »
I would always try to rock, soothe, etc to sleep once and if they'd wake up again a short time later I'd assume they were hungry and feed them.

Offline becj86

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2014, 09:42:51 am »
I would give it up to 2 weeks re: GS and then re-evaluate.

I hadn't thought if the 4month regression, never even noticed it with L, TBH!

If I was trying to see if he was hungry, which I never really did if it had been >3hr at this age, I would plug with dummy and he'd spit it out and scream if hungry, go to sleep if not... At that age, it was easier to feed and he never really did wake really frequently for milk, he was usually in pain if waking less than 3-4 hr from the last feed.

Offline jessmum46

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2014, 10:06:25 am »
Just discovered first tooth is about to break through the gum!  Guess that could be something to do with it?  He has been super fussy feeding in the daytime, pulling on and off constantly so perhaps he's having to make up for lost calories?  Two feeds last night at 1am and 5.20am, took a full feed at the early one (I woke him up after the first side and got him to take the other side too) and a smaller feed the second time.  Let's hope the tooth is the issue and normal service can resume shortly!

Offline kayra

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2014, 10:17:22 am »
Hope you don't mind me joining in, I was about to start a thread about this too! With ds I'm pretty sure it's not hunger but it still can take ages to settle him, although he actually settles pretty well normally, so even if I'm fairly sure it's not hunger (he isn't that hungry first thing in the morning) does the 5 minute 'rule' apply, or should I just stick to resettling him w/o feeding-even if it takes half an hour?
Ds1 was such a good sleeper at night, it's new territory with these guys x2!




Wow a tooth! I hope things are better for you now ;) I need to check ds' mouth as he gnaws his hand a lot but ds1 didn't cut his first tooth till 10mths so I thought it can't be.

Our angel Victor 06.11.10  We miss you, but look forward to the day we will see you again my love 1Cor. 15
Angel, April 2011

Offline *Ali*

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2014, 12:15:23 pm »
No Kayra, I wouldn't spend an hour resettling at this age if the NW is more than 3-4hrs after the last feed and he is crying or rooting. If he isn't crying I would just leave him to resettle. Just because he isn't hungry in the morning after a NF doesn't mean he wasn't genuinely hungry at the NW. I think of it like if I had a big lunch I might not be hungry for dinner that night but it doesn't mean I wasn't hungry at lunch time and could have gone the whole day without eating until dinner, yk? Or did you mean he sometimes sleeps through and still isn't hungry on morning WU? Even so their hunger can change from day to day so while he may be able to make it through the entire nights some nights he might need a feed other nights if he has eaten less that day or moved around more or been awake more etc.

Let's hope the tooth is the issue for you Katherine. Apparently with teething it follows one or the other of the parents so while one sibling can teethe early like mum for example the other may teethe later like dad.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2014, 18:37:32 pm by *Ali* »
Cadan Dec 2009 and Colby Aug 2011


Offline kayra

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2014, 18:05:53 pm »
Thanks Ali, that makes sense. It's just frustrating if he wakes 3hrs after a feed at night when during the day he can easily go 4 hrs if he naps well :(

Our angel Victor 06.11.10  We miss you, but look forward to the day we will see you again my love 1Cor. 15
Angel, April 2011

Offline *Ali*

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2014, 18:37:57 pm »
I know what you mean. Just remember it's not forever ;)
Cadan Dec 2009 and Colby Aug 2011


Offline kayra

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2014, 07:15:41 am »
Yup :) last night he fed at 11 and 3 then up just before 7, but I heard him resettle around 1:30 and 6, so at least he did that by himself...

Our angel Victor 06.11.10  We miss you, but look forward to the day we will see you again my love 1Cor. 15
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Offline jessmum46

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2014, 08:44:55 am »
We had a very similar night here with feeds around 11 and 3.  I did try for 5 mins or so to calm him at 11 before I fed but he was in no way going to settle so I just fed him.  I guess to be honest two or even three NFs at this age is normal for an EBF baby - though I'd prefer my sleep!

Offline *Ali*

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2014, 09:07:26 am »
Totally
Cadan Dec 2009 and Colby Aug 2011


Offline jessmum46

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2014, 09:37:28 am »
Any tips for feeding during teething?  He is so fussy at the moment, just keeps pulling on and off, wanting to feed but then pulling off and really crying :(. I've tried rubbing a bit of teething gel on his gums first which seems to help a little but not sure what else I could try?  The tooth is just cutting the gum now, so hoping this will settle down anyway in a day or two but it's a real fight trying to get him to eat!

Offline Erin M

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2014, 12:36:51 pm »
Let him chew on a frozen washcloth before feeding maybe - used to work with katie!

Offline *Ali*

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2014, 14:55:33 pm »
Yes I was also going to suggest numbing the gums with something frozen before each feed. Otherwise calpol should help.
Cadan Dec 2009 and Colby Aug 2011


Offline jessmum46

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2014, 01:44:24 am »
Just checking in at silly o'clock as I can't sleep ::) so things are no better, we have a tooth but still lots of waking. Tonight he had his BT feed at 6.10pm, asleep by 6.25ish, woke and was fussing on and off, moaning etc from about 9.20pm. Got louder/more upset, tried calpol and cuddles, eventually fed at 10.15pm as he just wasn't settling despite sucking his thumb and trying to. Passed out immediately. Woke again 1.45am, had a half-hearted attempt to settle him then fed, again passed out after an ok feed, but didn't seem starving.  It really doesn't feel like he *needs* all these feeds yk? I mean two weeks ago he could do 10-12h and now not even 4h?  I'm really tired :(

Offline *Ali*

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2014, 08:52:52 am »
Growth spurt?
Cadan Dec 2009 and Colby Aug 2011


Offline jessmum46

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2014, 09:00:15 am »
How long would that last though?  It's been about ten days so far.....

Offline *Ali*

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2014, 09:07:40 am »
Hmm yeah that does seem a while.

Have you checked there isn't another tooth coming! Sometimes they can come in twos with the second a little after the first one.
Cadan Dec 2009 and Colby Aug 2011


Offline jessmum46

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2014, 09:24:54 am »
I'll have a look when he next wakes up (I think he may well have just gone off, thank goodness! Let's not mention how day times are going at the moment....), I seem to remember DDs first couple came very close together.  He's feeding ok in the day which he wasn't before the first one came through but I guess we could give some calpol/Nurofen a shot to see if that helps. 

Offline jessmum46

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2014, 15:24:02 pm »
Can't see another tooth just yet but will keep an eye out.

Is there any way to try to increase daytime calories without snacking?  Feeding in a dark/quiet place not always totally practical with a toddler around, so was wondering about offering a top-up perhaps 30 mins after a feed, then not until next feed time? 

Offline *Ali*

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2014, 19:52:48 pm »
Yes you can do that. Milk is especially high fat 30 mins after a feed apparently.
Cadan Dec 2009 and Colby Aug 2011


Offline jessmum46

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2014, 07:00:08 am »
Sigh....another rough one.  Had a good night post-jabs with only one feed and then last night had three feeds again.  I persisted settling the first NW which was less than 3h after he'd gone to sleep for the night, which took an hour only to have him wake again 15 mins later :( should I have just fed straight away? 

Offline *Ali*

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2014, 08:23:52 am »
In hindsight probably he was hungry but I don't blame you for trying since it hadn't been long since his last feed.
Cadan Dec 2009 and Colby Aug 2011


Offline jessmum46

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2014, 08:34:38 am »
Ha, that other tooth is about to come through.  Can't catch a break!

Offline *Ali*

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2014, 13:59:32 pm »
Ah poor sausage
Cadan Dec 2009 and Colby Aug 2011


Offline jessmum46

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2014, 08:27:45 am »
I wonder if I can pick your brains again/just bounce some thoughts around?

We now have two teeth, no sign of any others.  Bit of a cold but otherwise well.  But we still have a lot of waking :(. I'm not convinced it's routine-related as he actually naps pretty well and doesn't seem to be OT/UT going to bed.  I don't think the extra feeds are a prop in the true sense but they do seem to have become a bit of a habit.  I'm trying to stretch his feeds a little in the day and we are managing about a 3.5h EASY feeds wise, occasionally he does 4h where there's a long nap. 

So.....what would you do?

Last two nights:
Mon: BT feed 6pm, NF 23.40 (6 mins, woke him for other side, 2 mins only), NF 03.05 (5 mins each side, woke him in between), woke again 5/5.30amish rolling about and chatting, got very vocal around 6.10am so offered another feed - not hungry at all but went back to sleep after one or two sucks, up for the day at 7am and again not really interested in feed.

Tues: BT feed 6.40pm, NF 23.30 (5&3 mins), woke just after 2am and managed to resettle him without a feed by 2.50am, woke 5am so offered feed (6-7mins), seemed dozy but then back in cot spent the next hour or more intermittently rolling, chatting, sucking his thumb etc before eventually dozing off around 6/6.15am, up for day at 7am.  Not really hungry when he woke again.

I am more than happy to feed once or twice overnight if he needs it, not expecting an EBF baby to do a 12h night undisturbed by any means!  But it kind of feels like he doesn't really need as much as he's having if you know what I mean?  None of the night feeds are really "good" "I'm starving" kind of feeds.

If I was suggesting to someone else what to do I'd say feed if it had been more than 3.5-4h since the last one, otherwise resettle, but that's pretty much what we're doing and it feels like too much yk?  I kind of feel like we need to get rid of one and just get back to one decent feed somewhere.  Is that reasonable?  Or am I expecting too much? 

(Sorry for the ramble, between DS and DD I'm not getting more than 2h of sleep together at the moment!)

Offline Martini~

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2014, 09:18:29 am »
Sorry Katherine to say that, but especially this early waking looks like UT/too much of day sleep to me. I guess that you could have two NW (or DF and one NW) if he is not happy to start a day at 5-6am. WDYT?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 09:33:25 am by Martii85 »
~Marta

Offline jessmum46

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2014, 09:27:54 am »
Noooooo!  And how do I sort that out if it is?  Sorry Marta I'll post over on the sleep boards somewhere when I get a chance, this isn't a BF question is it?


Offline *Ali*

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2014, 09:42:33 am »
Is he actually crying when he wakes? I know you said he is vocal but I wonder if he might eventually fall back to sleep without a feed if you just left him to it. Does he respond to shh pat?

If he had the BT BF at 6pm on the Monday what time was he asleep for the night? Just wondering if he wasn't in fact ready to get up for the day at the 5.30wu if he had an early night.

Are you sure he isn't getting too much day sleep? It does sound UT if he is just rolling about in the cot for hours at night, especially if he is having less than 12hr days. Or is BT significantly after the BT feed?

Posted with Martiii and you.i think we are on the same chain of thought  :-\
Cadan Dec 2009 and Colby Aug 2011


Offline jessmum46

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2014, 09:50:54 am »
No he doesn't cry when he wakes, just rolls about, shouts, gets annoyed that he's stuck on his face etc ::)  shh pat doesn't really suit him but last night at the 2am waking when he got really cross I just rubbed his back a little and shhhed when he was really loud, left him to it otherwise and he eventually went back off again.

The 6pm BT feed day he was asleep at about 6.25pm after a 5.45am start (up 6.30am) with a total of 4h10 day sleep plus 45 mins in cot time before getting up in the morning.  Yesterday was a 7-7 day with 4h25 total day sleep.  I guess I didn't think it was excessive bearing in mind a standard 4h EASY has 4h30-45 sleep?  But maybe it's too much for him? 

Off to post on the sleep boards.....sigh, you'd think I'd have got the hang of this by now!!!

Offline jessmum46

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2014, 10:07:35 am »

Offline Martini~

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2014, 10:50:03 am »
I think from BF point of view, his feeds seem short. Maybe because he is sleepy or maybe he is not so hungry.

If it's him being so sleepy, probably you cannot do anything more than what you did so rousing him slightly. The other idea which I would have is try to resettle at 11pm/12am if possible w/o BF (as I said I always was trying, but it wasn't a big of a struggle) so he takes a decent both sided feed slightly later like 2-3am and than can go till 7am WU.

This might be a slightly controversial opinion as I know that many mothers here wouldn't recommend not feeding if 4h+ passed, but basically it's what I did as no NF as soon as possible was really important to me. Frank went down to 1 NF at 6wo (around 3-5am), but very often woke around 1-2am, but I just resettled. As I said it wasn't very difficult.
Now when he is older and I observe his sleep patterns at night, I know that he has a natural window for waking (if you can call it like that) around 1am and 4-5am. When he is OT, OS or ill he will wake around that time. So I guess that when he was waking around 1-2am he was already slightly hungry so if I had fed him around that time, he would probably take a feed but small and woke once again around 4-5am and take another small feed.
~Marta

Offline MasynSpencerElliotte

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2014, 12:56:13 pm »
I disagree about length of feeds....some kids are just fast & efficient! DD1 was a 5 min feeder from birth.  Off to look at your new post Katherine.
Heidi




Offline Martini~

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2014, 13:04:31 pm »
Btw, I can be totally wrong:) I am just throwing some ideas here - it is you to judge if it's possible!
~Marta

Offline MasynSpencerElliotte

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2014, 13:07:30 pm »
Sorry if I came across wrong Marti...early am here and in a rush with posting! Just wanted to add that bit before I completely forgot!
Heidi




Offline goldmom

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2014, 13:53:55 pm »
Wanted to let you know that DS1 was a EBF baby (started 3 bottles of EBM during the day at 6 weeks, and went down to only 2 (4 hr EASY) at 16 weeks - the rest were BF'ed) and was only having 1 NF starting at 7 weeks (He was a small baby at 25th percentile though). At around 12 weeks he woke earlier than usual for a NF, and I didn't want to start feeding him twice, so DH resettled him to sleep (I couldn't even though I tried). I felt that once he was taking only 1 feed, I didn't want to start with 2 (not keeping GS in mind!). My theory was that if he was waking at a certain time at night, I fed at that time, and not at others - not calculating whether it was 3 or 4 hours from a previous feed, and for the most part, he wasn't waking at other times, except for the rare occasions. (At 5 months we moved his 1 am nf to 10 pm for a more reasonable time for me - it took DH about 10 days of resettling before he stopped waking at that usual time).

Not sure if that info will help you in deciding to resettle your LO at night. My other 2 didn't manage to go down to 1 nf until they were much older (even now DS2 is having 2 nf's and the occasional wanting to eat too early in the morning, at 6 instead of 7 - so your "problem" sounds like our normal  ::)).

Offline Martini~

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Re: What is going on?!
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2014, 18:02:39 pm »
Heidi, no problem at all. Hope that our mutual effort will somehow help Katherine!
~Marta