Is this a routine thing? Too much day sleep??

[jessmum46]

Couple of issues going on with DS at the moment which I would welcome a little help with if you don't mind? 

He's 17 weeks, EBF, independent sleeper at naps and BT.  Since  14/15 weeks hit things have been a bit haywire, he's had a cold, got two teeth, learned to roll over and started tummy sleeping.  Plus it's 'that age' but we've had increased night wakings with some early morning cot parties, I treated initially as a growth spurt but it's been three weeks or so now and the wakings continue.  He's not particularly hungry at the NWs either, will feed a bit and go back to sleep earlier in the night, but closer to 5am feeding doesn't get him back off.

Ali and Marta have kindly been helping me on the BF board but we've come to the conclusion it might be UT causing the problems.  I hadn't really considered it but the problems did also coincide with returning from holiday and DS starting to nap better, especially in the afternoons (on holiday he just had a catnap or two as we were out). 

Last two days: (just for info I'm not ideally aiming for a 'standard' EASY - a longer lunchtime nap with shorter ones either side works much better for us as a family, Tuesday was a bit odd because second nap was shorter).

Monday:
WU 5.45 up 6.30
E 6
A
S 8.05-8.50 woke cranky
E 9
A
S 10.25-13.00
E 13.00
A
S 15.00-15.50 woke happy
E 16.45
A
E 18.00
S 18.25

NFs at 23.40 & 03.05
Awake 5.15-6.15ish - offered feed at 6.10, took couple of sucks and fell asleep

Tuesday:
WU 7
E 7.10 (not a great feed)
A
S 8.55-9.45 woke happy
E 10.25 (hungry++)
A
S 11.40-12.45 - resettled himself at 50-55 mins
E 14.00
A
S 14.25-16.55 I woke him
E 17.10
A
E 18.40
S 19.00

NF 23.25
NW 02.05-02.50 - rubbed back/shh
NF 5am, stayed awake 5-6am ish then back to sleep

Today so far:
WU 7
E 7.25 (wasn't really hungry before)
A
S 9.10-9.55 (woke cranky)

So too much day sleep?  Or something else?

[Martini~]

In my honest opinion 4H easy with 4:30-4:45 day sleep reco is way to much and would be fine for HSN kids... I have a LSN so not best comparison here but I remember ladies from my birth club saying that around 4mo if their kids were sleeping more than 3-3.5h a day they get more night wakings. Maybe you would like to post in 6-9mo BC and ask the ladies what was their daytime sleep requirement at 3-6mo? They should still remember:).

I also read some other books and they say for kids 3-6mo they recommend max of 3h of sleep with a 12h night.

[weaver]

I'm not the best at untangling these things Katherine but... yes... I think maybe too much day sleep is the culprit here. For us OT was always waking in the first part of the night, and UT is later. 

Looks like he is at the top end of A times for his age (he's doing 2 hours reliably?). It may have a lot to do with the spacing of the sleep during the day.  If you are aiming for the one short, one long, one short nap structure, I think you'll have to be very careful with that first nap so that the second one falls exactly where you want it.  I would even consider trimming that first nap a bit if it's going too long, if he gets the balance of the sleep in the middle of the day then he'll last better with a shorter PM nap to BT.  Do you think he might have a witching hour? The hour past which he should not sleep in order not to muck up BT?

Not sure how much help that is, a bit rambly, sorry!

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

If he is average or low sleep needs I would definitely suspect UT for the NW's. DD3 is lsn and dropped to 2 naps at 4 months, which is extreme...but even an increase in A time may help. Also some have success counting from when baby gets out of bed vs when they are awake. Average for this age is 1hr 45 min-2 hr A and probably a wee bit more if you suspect lsn.

[Martini~]

What's weaver is suggesting, was our solution for some time between transition from 3 to 2 naps: so short, long, short nap. I personally wouldn’t go to 2 naps before A will not be around 3h. In other case, working on 12-12.5h day, your son will still have more than 3-3,5h of sleep.

[jessmum46]

This is how yesterday panned out:

WU 7
Nap 9.10-9.55
Nap 11.35-12.40
Nap 14.20-15.10
Nap 16.30-17.00
BT 7ish

So less day sleep but unfortunately had to be four naps.  Night was better to begin with, brief NW when we went to bed but easily settled and then feed at 01.45.  Then it all went a bit downhill.....heard him at 04.15 but I think he resettled, then unsettled again from 04.45.  He got annoyed at 5am so I turned him back onto his back and he seemed like he was going to settle.  Then I had to get up to deal with DD which I think possibly disturbed him again and he started yelling so given it was 5.25am I fed him.  He then settled then chatted/fussed on and off until about 6.30am before finally giving in and sleeping until 7.20

I'm not sure how much his cold is the issue.....he coughed quite a lot yesterday and sounded very snuffly this morning.  Ugh, I cant really sort this out until he's properly cold-free can I?  Although I do think slightly less day sleep may be needed too. 

[Martini~]

I would try for some days be a bit pushy and extend his A much. I also would treat 1h nap as a restorative one and do not shorten A time after that, if you don't see it's needed.

How B copes with OT naps? Frank was quite easy to resettle when OT, when UT naps was a nightmare for him and not possible to resettle. So I was not so afraid of tiring out him after UT nap as I wanted to be sure that he will do a good long nap afterwards (even if with small cry-out or my help needed at 30-45min mark).

[jessmum46]

He will resettle himself usually if not too OT, if I have to go in its game over . Not managed to resettle him once yet! 

[Martini~]

Oh God, Hon - it's really a pita:(.
It was the same for us for some time, but I guess mainly because these were UT naps.

Still wouldn't you like to try to extend his A slightly starting from the morning one? He seems to be a spiritied little monkey.
When you put him down is he tired or you go rather by clock?

[jessmum46]

Ugh I'm totally screwing this up I keep an eye on the clock but tend to put him down when he's tired.  I think with such a long waking in the early hours he seems to be treating the 45 mins or so he resettles for as his first nap.  So then can't do a decent A time first thing.  He's gone down at 1h50 this morning, already stirred at 33 and 50 mins coughing.  I haven't the heart to wake him because I don't think he's totally well.  I probably should have done shouldn't I?  Ugh ugh ugh

[jessmum46]

No, definitely a very tired baby here now.  He slept 1h45 for his first nap (resettled himself twice in that time) then was practically falling asleep again 1h30 after that.  I pushed him just to test the UT theory and he went down after a bit of a struggle at 2h15.  Woke 33 mins in and I *may* just have managed to resettle him for the first time ever. 

Marta what did your day look like when you were doing the short morning and afternoon naps at this age?  I'm going to wait until I'm sure DS is well before I start messing much more with his routine, but just wondering how you get to less day sleep without a huge push in A times? 

Uh-oh.....that resettle worked for 15 mins only, up after 50 mins total

[Martini~]

When on 2:15h A we did two longer naps and one short, but after two good naps third catnap was forced in a pram. We then changed the strategy, but I won't recommend it as DS wasn't prone to OT and rather LSN.

You could go like below:
A7:00-9:15
S9:15-10:00
A10:00-12:00 (slightly short as short nap but if you want just put him down later)
S12:00-14:00
And then around 16:30 30min-45min catnap. That's giving you maks of 3:30 sleep per day (we did at 4mo maks of 2:45). And you can push his A gently in this routine, put him down slightly later for second nap and when you will be around 2:45 just cut out the catnap by allowing him sleeping longer on first nap.

Frank also always preferred longer A till BT. He almost never wakes after BT but can go with EMW that's why I didn't want to let him sleep to much on a first nap.

[jessmum46]

Thanks, definitely something to aim for when he's feeling a bit better. 2h15 is too much for him at the moment I'm sure, he's not that LSN, at least I don't think so.

[jessmum46]

Ha, I may be wrong!  He's a bit better today so pushed him a bit, did 2h05 this morning and got a 55 min nap, followed by another 2h05 and a 1h30 nap! 

Marta/other LSN or high A mummies I may need my hand holding for a few days!!

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Welcome to the club . For us lsn is actually mostly a good thing as she is super flexible and is easy to work her nap (was on one nap by 7.5 months) around everything else. It is just hard when you don't get a break as she needs to have a full on day to get even a half decent night. Fx that he is not as extremely lsn as E is!