Just need some support

[Lindsay27]

Hi ladies . This breastfeeding journey is a new one for me so I just need some support.  DD was born last Tuesday and we started to try to BF right away.  The first day we just focus on skin to skin contact and getting that oh-so-good colostrum into her.  We continued this the entire 2 days we were in hospital, however she had an awful time latching and IF she did latch she would quickly pop off and cry at the breast.  The day after she was born I decided to rent a hospital grade pump and would pump after every feed to help get my supply going since she was not staying on the breast.  I also met with a lactation consultant who said I had all the right equipment so to speak (breasts and nipples are good, no tongue tie on DD, great positioning etc) so to essentially keep trying, which I did.  A day later nothing much had changed, so I saw a consultant again and we tried using a shield with some success, however she was still not able to consistently latch/stay latched.  We had a few BFs that were good while in hospital, however we had to top up each feed with pumped milk and then formula.  Each feed I start by offering the breast, then move onto topping up if/when she doesn't latch.

The day after I came home I returned to the hospital to attend a BF clinic with an LC, but I don't feel like it really accomplished anything.  The answer I basically get is "you are doing everything right, there is no real reason she shouldn't be latching/stay latched".  Now that we've been home a few days she has grown to prefer the quickness of the bottle and I can't get her to latch at all.  The last time we had a successful BF was Friday.

So now at each feed I offer the breast, I express first to get the milk going so she doesn't have to work so hard for it, but she still won't latch.  We try this usually for 10-15mins but by the end of that she is so irate we stop (recommend by the LC because at this point she burns more calories by crying).  After this I give her a bottle of pumped milk, then top up with formula following that.  The problem is...this is such a time consuming process that can take over an hour.  With a 3yr old to look after as well this is just unsustainable. 

I want this to work so badly.  I cry and cry because for those very few times where we had a successful BF I loved every minute of it, and I want to experience that again.  The constant pumping to keep my supply going has just become so mechanical and not the bonding experience I wanted.  I don't really know what to do or where to go from here.  I am planning on seeing an LC again this week.

I am not necessarily looking for advice (but will take it if you have it!), just some support.  I am heartbroken and I may need to make a decision about whether or not to give this up if I can't resolve this with an LC (again!) because I can't sustain what I am currently doing.  I just feel like I've seen an LC 3 times now in the week since she's been born and we have gotten no where, and I'm frustrated.

Sorry this was so long!  Bless you if you got to the end of it!!

[weaver]

Massive hugs, oh don't cry lovey. You're doing really well to have persisted this far.

Just quickly from me - is it possible DD has a pain/ache in her head or jaw from the birth? I had that with LO1 and we saw a cranio-sacral osteopath and he improved immediately. Might be worth trying.

Otherwise, have a look at the Jack Newman site, videos on newborn feeding, very informative and something might click with you.

Lastly, are you seeing the same LC? Do you have the option to see someone else who might see something different? Tongue tie presents in a lot of different ways, there's also lip tie. Might be worth contacting local La Leche League for support, they're great for emotional and practical bfing support.

[ENMS]

Lots of hugs Lindsay!!

Have you tried biological nurturing? You can google for videos. Also you may want to try pacing the bottle so that the flow is similar to BF? Sorry can't link video on my phone now but can do so tomorrow.

I know it is hard but try to be relaxed when you offer the breast.. She will sense it if you are anxious.

I second pp for an osteopath. We saw a chiro when DD was 5 days old and it really helped.

You are doing amazing more (((hugs)))

[michaeljacknnugg]

Here to hold your hand!

We had trouble latching on one side, drove me crazy. So I expressed a bit and finger fed/cup fed and we persisted... And now we are feeding fine. Still takes up to an hour per feed though, just to help you with your expectations of bf.

I'd agree with Anne, check for ties again and keep offering. Maybe there is a teat you can use on the bottle to make her have to work more for the milk?

[Bella89]

Hugs Lindsay!
Lot's of good advice from girls above! If I may add something is undressing yourself from the waist up and covering with blanket. Also, throwing away pacifier if you use one.

Believe me, I know how it is, and how miserable you can feel when you want to give everything that you have the best to your child and he would not take it. BF is not an easy thing to learn and teach your baby. It is a nightmare for many of us at the beginning. It was for me: pain, sweat, tears, blood, and many feelings that I wish I can turn back now. Shield helped us, I was BF with it for 3 months although my LC warned me it is not a long term solution. I had no choice and after a while my DS understood that bare nipple is warmer and softer and better. I fought hard for BF, so I know what you feel.

I am here if you need anything. I think you have to remember not to stress out too much (easier said than done) and whatever you can do is the best you can do. Don't beat yourself up. 1ml of BM is better than no BM. If she will BF for 5 sec- that's wonderful. If you have time to extract some more-that's great! We all do what we can, and soon you will know again that this is planty

[eva026]

I BF with a shield for 1y. These days they are so thin and flexible that I wouldn't worry too much about it. If you need it to get her to BF then use it.
Have you tried the medela calma bottle? No milk comes out at all without active sucking.  It saved our BF because DD had a major bottle preference. There are others that work the same way but I can't remember the names.
You can also try nursing in the bath to get both of you calm and relaxed or co-sleeping for a while. Popping my nipple in DD's mouth (in our case with the shield on and milk expressed a little to not put her off) while she was still half asleep also helped.
If it makes you feel better, I think I cried through the first month of BF. It's HARD!
Holding your hand through this and sending hugs.

[Bella89]

Eva, sorry to ask you this here, but I had that Calma bottle and I didn't even use it once. It had a huge hole in the teat, and I literally sprinkled my DS face with milk. I wonder if I used it wrong:/ Did yours have that hole too?

[ENMS]

Here is a video on how to pace the bottle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH4T70OSzGs

Hope you're doing ok.

[weaver]

Yes, how are things Lindsay? ((Hugs))

[eva026]

Bella, it's def not supposed to do that. You must have had a defective one. The first one we got started doing that after a while and we got a new one which was fine till the end.

[Lindsay27]

Thanks for everyone's replies  

Our local health nurse called me so I've set up an appointment with another LC tomorrow and she is coming to my house.  The ones I was using previously were provided by the hospital, which is all fine and well...except it is about an hour away so kind of a pain to get there, pay $18 for parking etc.  DD had her 1-week doctor appointment today and was checking for tongue tie again but was given the all clear.  She really doesn't seem to have any issues in that department. 

Beyond that, I have already been undressing from the waist up for each feed to get the skin to skin contact.  Her bottles have newborn nipples so they can't get any slower (though I will look at that video Elise on how to pace the bottles).  I continue to try with and without the shield with no luck.  I usually spend at least 5mins before each feed expressing/bringing the milk down, but it doesn't make a difference.  I've even tried to pump for a few mins before a feed to really get things moving, but again no luck.  She will.not.latch. 

It just feels like this is slipping farther and farther away.  It's been days since she latched. DH is super supportive and helps when/where he can...and he tells me all the time that I'm doing a great job.  It just feels all so personal though.  You can't help but wonder what you are doing wrong and feeling guilty about not being able to give them what they need.  I wanted this so bad.  And I always wonder why this had to be so hard for me for both kids...why I couldn't just luck out with one of them!?  All my girlfriends were/are breastfeeding champs and I don't know why this works so easily for some but not for me, yk? I know it's hard and not easy for everyone, I do, but I feel like a crap mother to be honest.

I don't know.  I am going to see how tomorrow goes with the LC.  I know feeding is a time consuming process no matter how you do it, but the constant attempt to BF, failing, bottle feeding pumped milk, topping up with formula, then pumping...this routine every 3 hrs...it's utterly exhausting.  I am feeling pretty done with it all, this in between BF and bottle feeding.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

(((Hugs))) I hope the appt with the LC at home goes well - so much easier they can come to you.

Did they check for lip ties in addition to tongue tie?

[weaver]

Just to add to the list - probably doc already checked but if not - posterior tongue tie is often missed as are palate defects.

And LC might know of good osteopath with baby cranio experience.

You could start taking fenugreek to help with supply.

I can absolutely see how exhausted you must be, your experience is a zillion times harder than "just" bfing. You've already done so so well for her. Keep an open and heart on what's best for you all. You're an amazing mother ((hugs))

I don't know where you are in Canada but the International Bfing Centre (Jack Newman) clinic in Toronto does amazing work.

Here are some interesting thoughts from the LLL and from Jack Newman. HTH.
http://www.lalecheleague.org/nb/nbjulaug01p136.html

https://nbci.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=54:when-baby-does-not-yet-latch&catid=5:information&Itemid=17

[jessmum46]

  You can't help but wonder what you are doing wrong and feeling guilty about not being able to give them what they need. 

Many many hugs lovely you must be shattered and I totally get this feeling.  Just wanted you to know that however it feels right now, you are giving your kids EXACTLY what they need.  A loving Mum who wants the best for her children is such a precious gift to give them, and one that so many children in the world don't have everything else is secondary, feeding included.  Here supporting you all the way in whichever decision you choose is right for you and your family xxx

[kayra]

Hugs Lindsay! And congratulations!!!!!
Bf was a big struggle for me too, and I hated, hated all the pumping + formula + bf battles, it's so utterly exhausting and disheartening you have my full full sympathy. I really hope this LC can help you. For me the twins latched ok but the constantness was just horrible so I couldn't onky bf, with ds1 there was some sort of a latch problem so I bf'ed him for only a week and then pumped+formula. In hindsight I wish I'd persevered more with him, but that's also with the realization that at that point he was my only child, when there's another child in the picture it is very different. Take care of yourself or allow yourself to be taken care of too, whatever you decide will be the best for you all at this season. Hugs!

[michaeljacknnugg]

More hugs for today xxx

[binxyboo]

First of all, gentle hugs to you. You sound like a truly wonderful, caring Mommy. Have any of the LC's recommended the SNS? I used this with my second and third child for the first few weeks, and while I still had to pump, at least all feeding was done at the breast, so I didn't have bottles to worry about. It might really help. Also, I watched this video featuring the asymmetrical latch that Dr. Jack Newman recommends before every feed for a week when I was feeding my second. I really credit this latch for saving my bf relationship with Kate. It can feel a bit awkward at first, but it becomes second nature in no time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO5ZDKynaD0 Please keep us posted as to how you are getting on x

[Lindsay27]

So the LC came today and while we had great success I am more confused than ever.

We were able to successfully get her to latch (yay!) but it was literally a 2 person job with the help of the nipple  shield and the LC using a syringe to dribble milk over the breast to get her actively sucking.  DH has tried this several times on our own with little success.  This is all fine and well but I am 1 person with 2 hands.  I can't hold the baby, compress my breast, and dribble milk down myself on my own every day.  I know this is just a means to an end but there is no way for me to even attempt this on my own.

Regardless, she latched and was actively sucking and the LC said she could see her swallowing so she was getting milk.  I asked her how long we should stay doing this and she advised that if DD was not done yet she would let me know.  So I kept feeding her alternating breasts...for 2hrs!!! Every time she came off or I switched sides she rooted like crazy and cried for the breast and would frantically reattach.  I know she was getting milk because I felt my breasts get softer, but 2hrs of this!? My nipples were sore and I just couldn't do it any longer, but she was still obviously starving...screaming so hard she couldn't breathe and rooting, so I topped her up (which probably erased all the work we did today) and she guzzled back a whole bottle in about 3mins flat.  So what gives? I know my supply is not stellar because I've been relying on the pump to keep it going, but it's like she got nothing, even though I know she did.  Half of that time she was feeding the LC was here, so we were doing it right, but how could she possible have been so hungry?? I have no freaking idea what I'm doing . This is all so foreign to me I feel so over my head.

This day has worn me out.  I've done nothing but bottle feed, wash/sterilize bottles, breastfeed and pump all day long.  It's 4pm and the only thing I've managed to get into my own stomach is a cup of tea.  I can't go on like this, I'm not even enjoying my baby anymore.  I just rocked her to sleep, the poor mite was so utterly exhausted.

[weaver]

That is definitely on the spectrum of normal behaviour for a 1 week old   I can categorically say she got lots and she was working on supply and enjoying suckling. 

Brilliant that she latched, brilliant that she loved it (2 hrs!!) Did you use the same method every time to encourage her?   Now that she's been tempted to do it, perhaps the dribbling won't be necessary every time? Will LC come back? Can you phone her and talk through how to?  Sounds like you need hands to hold - and hands to do other things like feed you - you could mention to DH that this is his department right now.

Do you always use the same hold? Sometimes it helps to switch it up a bit (as Michelle mentioned). Dangling feeding can work well for tricky feeders.

If you've sore nipples (normal too), lansinoh cream is good, but the absolute stellar product in my experience are Multi-Mam Compresses, they feel amazing and really speed up healing if needed.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Multi-Mam-Compresses-Intensive-Treatment-Breast-Feeding/dp/B005KJ3DSC/ref=sr_1_2?s=baby&ie=UTF8&qid=1450300466&sr=1-2&keywords=multimam+compress

((hugs)) I'm sure you're shattered.  You're doing an amazing job. 

[Lindsay27]

LC will be back on Friday.  I should mention that DH has been amazing when he's home, either occupying DS so I can focus on feeding, helping me feed, or putting me to bed early and giving DD a bottle of pumped milk so I can get a decent stretch of sleep.  He is however back to work so during the day I am home solo.

It's good to know that this is normal behavior.  Sorry for being so whiny I just felt like a slave to feeding all day which I totally get it normal, it's just hard to manage logistically right now because we are in between breast and bottle. i have to go out tomorrow and I'm nervous about how to manage feeding her enough before I go out if she is still starving after taking the breast.  I am also worried that topping her up is undoing everything I've done. 

With the LC we really did nothing different that I'd already been doing...maybe persisted with dribbling the milk over the breast a little longer but that's about it...again, not something that I was able to do on my own during the day.  She did say she thought my shield was too big so she gave me another one to try.  I was doing the cradle hold but we have also used football and lying down on my side.  Cradle worked today.  I do have cream for my breast so will be using that to get some relief.

I guess we'll see how the next feed goes.  It will be more chaotic with DS here, especially if she wants to hang out on the boob for another 2hrs. 

[*Ali*]

So, so happy for you that she got that great feed in! Well done. It will get easier.

I'd definitely look I to a SNS so you aren't having to bottle feed as well and can wean it off eventually if you can get her latching regularly.

[Lindsay27]

Sorry, SNS?

[*Ali*]

Supplemental Nursing System. A small tube you tape to your nipple so LO gets milk via the tube from a bag whilst nursing. It encourages them to nurse even when there isn't a huge amount of milk there to start with. Adoptive mothers often use them too.

[Lindsay27]

Okay the LC brought something similar, it was a tube attached to a syringe that she used to dribble milk on the breast to encourage sucking.

So I had another successful BF tonight using the shield and DH to put milk on the breast.  She seemed much more settled afterwards and drifted off to sleep so I didn't top her up.  Not sure if she was full from the previous top-up bottle or if she got enough from the breast this time, it's anyone's guess.

I'm not entirely sure what I'm going to do tomorrow.  DH can help me through the night but tomorrow I'll be on my own and add to that the fact that I have to go to the city...I'm barely BFing successfully at home with support let alone in public on my own.  Really not sure how this is going to work.

[binxyboo]

With the SNS, milk is in a bottle connected to the tube, so all feeding is done at the breast.

[Lindsay27]

Yes it was like that, the tube was on my breast and she would push the milk from the syringe through the tube and onto the breast and DD would then latch. 

[lily_layne]

(((hugs))), (((hugs))) and more (((hugs))). You are doing the best that you can and that's all your LO needs!

I have a silly little bit of advice that may help reduce a bit of stress. My grandma was a pediatric nurse for years and she is adamant that bottles don't need to be sterilized if only one baby is using them. She says sterilizing is for when bottles are shared, like in a hospital, or when baby is sick and a good wash in hot, soapy water and a rinse in very hot water or a run through the dishwasher is good enough. If you're comfortable with that, it would at least take one small thing off your to-do list each day.

[ljperkins]

Hi Lindsay,
You are doing awesome momma and are really trying everything you can. I applaud you for really sticking with this and trying your hardest. I would really encourage seeing a chiropractor that is trained in pediatrics. I have taken DS to my chiro and has helped a lot plus she is trained in cranio-sacral which infants respond really well. In my breastfeeding class there were quite a few moms that had latch issues but was resolved with my chiropractor. Hang in there and sending love and support your way.

Lindsey

[weaver]

Simple thing to support supply - eat oats! Really it works, and you can also take fenugreek but the oats you probably have to hand.

Yay for that evening feed, well done baby and mama!

[weaver]

Dropping off hugs Lindsay. Hope you will have more support over the weekend and things will look good for you and baby Nora.

Please remember that most mothers are feeling pretty tired by end of week 1-2, without the challenges you have faced, so go easy in yourself and go to bed if you can.

[nona]

congrats & (hugs) it sounds like things are taking a turn for the better....it's hard...with my DS  it was all about practicing, practicing, practicing and i would commit to one week at a time. Some babies are just tricky with the latch. also, it may make you feel better to weigh her before and after to see how much milk she is getting.

i was never great at this plus my boobs aren't huge but a lot of moms like lying down to feed.

i know it is hard having another little one at home...

[michaeljacknnugg]

Just stopping in to cheer you on a bit more and offer some hugs xxx

[Lindsay27]

Thanks for checking in ladies.  Things here unfortunately have not improved and I am still (for the most part) unable to get DD to latch, and if I do it is with the help of DH using a syringe to dribble milk over the breast to trick her into latching and sucking, and also using the nipple shield.  So, I made the decision this weekend to stop pumping for a number of reasons.  Along with everything I mentioned about the entire process, I have missed my DS terribly as well.  Inevitably the first day I stopped pumping I was extremely engorged as the breasts were not being emptied by either DD or the pump, but the day following I felt okay...likely because my supply is quickly dropping as the pump was the only thing sustaining it.  So, I still offer the breast at each feed but I suspect within a few days things are just going to run its course.

Not an easy decision for me, a very emotional one, but one I think benefitted our family as a whole.  I think I can serve my family better being a happy mommy knowing DD is fed and full vs the emotional basket case I was trying to force something that just wasn't working for us. 

In any case, this is where we are at.  I sincerely appreciate everyone's support.  You ladies are all rock stars at cheering on those who need it the most, always with the upmost understanding, and without being judgmental, so thank you

[ENMS]

Lots of (((hugs))) Lindsay. It must have been difficult to make that decision but as you say your whole family will benefit from it!!

[michaeljacknnugg]

I'm glad you have a decision, it must have been so hard to come to it but it means you can move forward.

As long as your baby is fed, that's the important thing. Bf works for some mums and not others and there should be no judgment at all as to what each of us chooses. That's my take on it, anyway!

Lots of hugs Lindsay, these newborn days are tough going even without the added stress you've been having.

[jessmum46]

Lindsay you have been a total star getting to where you have and I'm really happy for you that you have made a decision that is right for all of you.  Well done momma!  I appreciate it hasn't been an easy choice but hope that the pressure is now off and you can all really relax into being a family of four xxx

[weaver]

((((Hugs)))))

[lily_layne]

As long as your baby is fed, that's the important thing.

^This! I hope you're feeling relief now that you've made a decision. (((hugs)))

[*Ali*]

Hugs. You're doing a great job.