Nursing & AP?

[FPT23]

Hello!

So this can apply to "sleep" questions but I wanted to ask more in the BFing community since i might have better luck with women who ran into this issue! It is a question about BFing however.

Ok so, is it AP if I offer him to nurse before naps/BT ...BUT, is slightly roused (I burp him; he's tongue tied and tends to need burping often- burps successfully) when I go to burp him over my shoulder, and then finish rocking him to sleep? He's 5 weeks! The thing is, nursing to sleep is the one prop I do not want to deal with later (I dealt with it with my first) and I know how challenging it is to teach I.S when they are used to being "nursed" to sleep.

Being that my son is tongue tied, he tired VERY easily at the breast and I've also resulted to doing this as he does not easily transfer milk at each feed so just to be on the safe side, I try to offer the breast often to make sure he's getting his feeding. So I normally feed on demand of course but mostly when he wakes, then I offer some before he sleeps just so he isn't waking from hunger. He seems to be more tired when I do this and goes into sleep much faster, easier and quicker even after he's been aroused and rocked (I don't mind rocking to sleep- I can cross that bridge when I get there!) ...and he staaaaays asleep better than when just rocked. I guess because having worked overtime and all?

But would this be AP? To my nursing moms, what do you think? What's your tactics to avoid nursing to sleep? This has turned out to be much easier and faster and that is super convenient because I have a toddler around and the time I spend rocking and getting to sleep can take 15-20 mins and I do not like to leave my little one so long. This way, it's more like 5-10. Also helps around BT since the process is faster w/ the baby and before it would take FOR.EV.ER!

What do you think?

Thank you!!

[clazzat]

I think that it is probably going to depend on your lo - what you have done sounds like exactly what I did with dd1 and we had no problems at all with independent sleep. Having said that, I did similar with dd2 and had some issues because she got to waking often in the night and wouldn't settle unless I fed her. I don't think that it was so much needing the feed to go to sleep,  but she got used to only going to sleep with a full tummy.

At 5 weeks he is still so little I wouldn't worry about it just yet. Maybe as he gets a bit bigger you could try to sing a song before you put him down or something so that there is a little gap between the feed and going to sleep.

[FPT23]

Thank you for your response

How long did u BF and by when did you attempt I.S.?

Yes he's little but the reason I ask, even so little, is b/c even NOW he won't settle without the "nursing" and usually, he's just using me as a paci it seems but as I mentioned, he's slightly aroused by burping or finish w/ rocking to sleep. If I skip this step, he will not settle easily and wakes easier. Not sure if it's b/c the full tummy or he wakes needing to suck. He really has a need to suck. My first son never took the paci and weaning off the breast was SOOO much work- I'm nervous to do it again! It was harder as I felt guilty or unsure if it was ever really hunger or just comfort and if so, how could I take it away. They both seem to be persistent guys

So I wasn't sure ..... :/

[FPT23]

How and when did you successfully wean and teach IS to DD2? What was your approach?

[*Ali*]

At 5wks I'm a bit surprised you can even fit in 2 BFs in one A times since they tend to be around 1 hr only.

What you do with the burping to rouse sounds fine to me. At this age, you're going to be helping them to sleep one way or another really anyway.

[FPT23]

True they need all the help to sleep

Well Ali, thanks for your input!

I'm aware of those A times! I try my best to stick to them! However, he is tongue tied and so I always feel he doesn't get his fill in one feed as he gets super exhausted. I truly never know tbh and I just offer it! But I also mentioned he uses me more as a paci and I'm aware of this and take advantage of it as it speeds up the time he's asleep! With my toddler around, the faster he's down, the better! Haha!

Did BF ever become a prop for you Ali? I'm interested in how other BF mom me handled this! I know it's easy and lovely to use the power of the breast at first !!

I do burp and end up rocking- sometimes as I burp he just stays asleep on my shoulder- not always... But would that still count as an arousal, not nursing to sleep? I'm trying to keep the end goal in mind and minimize the nursing to sleep or "comfort" nursing to sleep, in my case! Again, I know the struggle of weaning BF later and it's something I def want to try diff this time!

Also, he sleeps long stretches nights for the most part... There have been growth spurts and he was waking every 2 hours to feed then went back to normal... But how do I know later if he's actually hungry or waking for comfort?? -- again, to avoid AP, I would like to comfort in other ways if it's not hunger. NOT NOW, but for future reference

[clazzat]

I fed for 1 year, 18 months and 2 years. IS was really easy for dd1 - she found her thumb at 10 weeks and we never looked back. I have to say that your lo does sound quite similar to her in the way he settles and sleeps through the night. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!

Dd2 needed to suck, and we forced a paci on her until she found her thumb. When I realised that she was nursing in the night as a prop I just refused to feed her and ended up co-sleeping for a while. It didn't take that long to wean her off it (a couple of nights), although they weren't easy nights.

The thing that I have really learned is that it is okay to do what you need to do now and worry about later when the time comes. I know that it is really hard to wean props, but your sanity in the short term is important too, and you don't need to wean a prop until you are really ready to do it.

[FPT23]

Thanks for the help Clazzat!

Useful!! I know what you mean about sanity NOW. Especially with two. That's why I've kinda gave in to everything for now but I am keeping the long term in mind! When do you think is the best time to encourage weaning "props" When I donu want to use my breast he does well w/ the paci to soothe and settle but he pops it out or we do and continue rocking or whatever. He doesn't seem to rely on the paci. He "settles" quite easy most days/nights but he also has his moments! Some days/nights he just won't settle! Once he's OT, it's over!   but he does seemingly decent, for now
But yes he has been sleeping through since maybe 3 weeks. Most nights are well- 5,6 hour stretches and the rest can sometimes vary

My baby is currently swaddled so he prb won't be finding his fingers but when he's not, he does suck on his hands so who knows! Was yours swaddled?

I just get intimidated in the long run about nursing to sleep since I've been there before. Having known now, I "prefer" to just keep it in mind, if that makes sense! Nursing to sleep in the past was killer for us, so I just want to find w better balance/alternative.

[clazzat]

I totally understand about not wanting to fall into the same trap again, but really it sounds like he is doing great and you might do best just to roll with it for the time being and see what happens. Mine were all swaddled but found their thumbs anyway. Once dd1 was trying to suck her thumb we would leave one arm out so that she could reach it.

[*Ali*]

Instead of rocking after burping I used shh pat over my shoulder. That way when I was ready to start settling in the cot they were used to the shh pat and associated it with being soothed to sleep. It's hard to wean rocking as it's impossible to do it once you lay them down. That's why  BW recommends shh pat.

I found that as long as I settled in the cot sometimes it didn't matter if I fed to sleep at other times.

[FPT23]

Clazzat,

Ohhhhh I see!! He has found his hands and a few times the thumb but not a fan yet haha hmm but something to think about! Thanks for that ...when did you wean your swaddle, and how was it?  Yes I mean, generally I can't complain, about night sleep (just yet ) ...he will sleep as of lately, 6 hour stretches then 3-4 after that first feed. On a good night. Do you think this is a sign that he is not using BFing as a prop?

Thank you Ali, that's true. Buuuut, shh pat over my shoulder has never worked for us?! It helps to calm him during awake times if he's fussy. When it comes to sleep, early on I tried to implement shh/pat but it seems as though it stimulates him? Is that possible? As I have him over my shoulder he's lifting his head up or bopping it around, never settles to even a "drowsy/awake" state. I'm currently doing APOP b/c of the toddler and b/c as many have mentioned, at this age (6 weeks today) we have to help them regardless. I end up rocking as hard as I know it is to wean but not as hard as breast was!
Is it possible shh/pat doesn't work for him? I offer breast before naps/BT for 2 reasons:

1) he's tongue tied and always falls asleep easy during feeds and my concern that he doesn't transfer enough milk with his first wake feed in EASY routine (which was an issue in his earlier days. Weight has been good since around 3/4 weeks old)

2) there are times I'm just a pacifier to him and he falls asleep or gets drowsy at the breast, and it speeds up our process to get him to sleep which I need b/c of the toddler. However, rocking and a paci work too. He spits it out almost immediately or I take it out during and he never needs it anymore. Like, he doesn't depend on it much but just to calm him to a drowsy state. 

I rock him yes but then stop and let him just lay there as well! Then transfer him off to where he sleeps. Also Ali, if I may add, he sleeps in a swing which resembles a car seat, but I've never turned it on or have him rocking- ever. He sleeps there b/c after his first few weeks at home we noticed he was very uncomfortable on his back. Later I realize he does have slight reflux and sleeps better at an incline. Once it subsides around 3 months or so (according to dr since it's not so severe to be put on meds) I will transfer him to his crib. So my point is, I can't do much shh/pat from the swing... :-/ I read Tracy has them on their side and pats.

What do you think of this? We do use a white noise app from my old phone. Shhing and patting does calm him I've noticed but more like he's thinking, "what is this she's doing" ...it calms him during A times when he's fussy but it seems bc it's more of a sudden alert. Over the shoulder patting without shh sometimes relaxes him a bit.

[clazzat]

Have you done the know your baby quiz? It can help to work out what to do if you know what type of baby you are dealing with. For example, dd2 was a mix of 4 different types, but I noticed when I did the quiz that the answers where she came out touchy were all to do with sleep, and actually she did way better at sleeping when I didn't interfere at all - shh pat never worked for her either. When she was a bit bigger, putting her down and walking off was by far the best way to get her to sleep!

I would suggest that if the paci gets him drowsy then maybe you could give it to him once you are sure that he has had enough to eat and then he can use that rather than you and you are running less of a risk of him using you as a prop. If he is spitting it out before he actually goes to sleep there's a good chance it won't become a prop either.

Honestly I can't remember when we weaned the swaddle, but it wasn't a big deal. Dd2 and ds would only sleep on their tummies so they weren't swaddled for long, but dd1 had it for quite a while. If you have an unmedicated refluxer, you might find that he is more comfortable sleeping on his tummy - obviously that is not recommended, so that would be something that you would have to weigh up for yourself as to whether you are happy doing it.

[FPT23]

Clazzat,

Again I appreciate the love

I have took that quiz but I cant figure it out yet. I think when I took it, he's a mix of textbook/maybe touchy? But then the way he's always slept through the night and how content (sometimes) he can be by himself in a bouncy or chair, makes me think angel too haha! He's never fought the swaddle... Soothing him is pretty simple. Over stimulation hasn't seemed to "bother" him just do what it does after awhile, or other arms like grandma etc don't upset him. His cries are mellow but can escalate if not tended to (that's all babies isn't it?) Again, shh pat works to get him to relax- but more BC it alerts him. He jolts often and less is more has worked for him w/ sleep but tends to drift off seemingly easy unless it's during the late hours which can take awhile to settle or he keeps waking... But that's typical I think of late hours? Haha so I'm unsure!! Could I get the link to the quiz? I'll post my results!

Yes he spits it out or we take it out and he's just fine. Seems to use it just to relax... Spits it out within 5 mins or less. We take it out before he lays too and he's been ok? So far.

Weaning swaddle wasn't a big deal for our first either. Well as I mentioned above, he sleeps in a swing. Resembles a car seat b/c the reflux and discomfort. After I made the switch he slept 10x better. I've actually tried belly sleep as I know most babies prefer it but it's not recommended as you said, but he wasn't a fan it seemed but the incline has worked. I think around the 2.5/3 mth mark I'm going to attempt morning naps in the crib first- see how he feels? Have him play in the crib etc it we can find a little time... My son transitioned the same way to the crib but closer to 4-5 months and he was on meds for reflux and bad colic- he did well?

Let me ask, if he's waking after 30 mins per nap... What could it mean? It's OT w A times or that doesn't apply much to his age? ...I kno 6-8 weeks things change... Naps are good then bad but lately more bad.

Also, with short naps, as soon as they wake, would u nurse them? I always wonder if he's waking out of hunger (again, I always consider it as he's tongue tied) or just attempt to soothe back to sleep? I usually rock w paci again.. After offering him to feed just in case- or if it's a growth spurt... How would you go about the short naps and feeds?

[FPT23]

I got a mix of Angel, Textbook, Touchy! (I found the link!)

[trimbler]

Hey, sorry slightly off topic but just noticed this and wondered if you're booked in for tongue tie division, or have you decided not to go down that route? My DD had a subtle TT but having it divided made such a huge difference to her feeding, she turned from a reluctant feeder who struggled to latch, tired easily and struggled to gain weight, to an enthusiastic feeder with much improved latch and better weight gain