Really struggling with the end of the day

[LovelyLilyandJack]

My 4 month old is generally a good sleeper and if I read his cues properly goes down for naps without a sound and goes to sleep independently in his cot. He has 2 good naps in the morning but we cannot get the end of the day right which means that if he has a rubbish nap or wakes early in the day we end up with an ot baby by the afternoon and bedtime is a struggle.  Every day he resists his cn and we're winging it at bedtime which I wouldn't mind but firstly I am spending half an hour at the end of every day trying to settle him for his cn and then half an hour letting him sleep on me,  which I can't do most days as I have to do preschool pick up or look after my daughter.  Secondly it means bedtime is a struggle every day cos it's just messy by then

What I'd really like is at least to know what A time he needs at the end of the day so i know how to adjust it if need be and to get him sleeping in his bed for the cn.  I can't apop him as nothing really works except him sleeping on me in a quiet darkened room and I can't do that with my daughter running about!

Our day generally looks like:

Wu: 6.15
E: 6.30/6.45 bf
A: 2 hrs or slightly more
S: 8.15/ 8.20 - 10.30

E: 10.45
A: 1hr 45 - 50
S: 12.20 - 2.20/2.30

E: 2.45
A: pd after 1hr 45 or 1hr 50 ish, normally fights it for about 30 mins until I Apop.  He'll try to settle himself but just can't drop off.
S: 4.50/5 for 30 mins

A: 1hr 45
E: 4/5 ozs at 6.30
S: in bed by 6.45 but fights it til 7 / 7.15 then drops off soon after that.

He can only make 3 hours between feeds at the end of the day so today I've just thought he could need a top up feed before his cn so might try that tomorrow but otherwise I've tried all different A times and am stumped!  Any suggestions on what to try next?

[jessmum46]

How long have you tried for the A time?  He could well be UT and fighting because of that.  If you can easily APOP though I would just do that - the catnap will be gone in a month or two Will he sleep on the preschool run?  The other thing I'd try would be a slightly earlier BT - he has quite a long day so may be a bit OT at BT with nearly a full A after the catnap xx

[LovelyLilyandJack]

I've mostly tried 1hr 45 to 2 hrs ish. Sometimes he just doesn't look tired so could be UT - if I can't rock him to sleep fairly easily then he usually is UT and we've definitely had that a few times.  Other times he's definitely seemed tired and has still fought it.  It's a bit tricky APing it. He stays awake a long time in the buggy and sometimes wakes after 10 mins.  Because it's a good 20-25 minute walk to preschool it's normally a rush to get back in time for bed with my daughter dawdling,  especially if he only sleeps 10 mins and I want to get him home to bed! I haven't tried it for a while though so next time his nap falls at the right time I might try that. It's much nicer doing that than listening to him screaming at home! Unfortunately I can't easily AP when my daughter's home though - he can't switch off with her around so will only sleep in my arms in his room.  I can't even feed him to sleep in the sitting room cos he comes off the boob and peers around! 

We could manage a slightly earlier bt but cos his cat nap often ends up being quite late I'm often keeping him up so his cn doesn't end up being too close to bed.  What do you think the shortest A time between cn and bed could be? I think you're right about him being OT though - he's started doing 2x2hr naps again this week and even though the cn has still gone wrong and he's still resisted bt,  he's settled quicker this week than last.

[jessmum46]

I think the A between catnap and bed depends on both the A before and the length of the catnap.  So if he has a long A, 2h plus beforehand, I would say probably 1.5h after a 40 min nap and maybe 1h15 after a 30 min nap?  You could even wake at 15-20 mins and he'd probably go down again within the hour.  But if the A before is short, then he will likely handle a bit longer afterwards.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

That's really helpful,  thank you.  I'm always fishing in the dark a bit at bedtime cos he loves his bedtime wind down and shows no sleepy signs at all.

Still not sussed his A times in the afternoon and think he could be gearing up for a shift in A times again.  He did quite long A times yesterday cos he resisted his first nap and had a very long first A time,  followed by a slightly longer second A time than usual cos he had his jabs just before and still only did a 40 minute nap on 1hr 45 in the afternoon. Today he's done between an hour and an hour and a half on both naps so far on his usual A times. He's got to do a 2 hour nap to get him to bedtime now which will be interesting!

Actually he does take a decent third nap if he doesn't take good morning naps normally.  Do you that points to him needing a slightly higher afternoon A time if he does a good nap after 1 or 2 bad ones on his normal A times?

[jessmum46]

Yes it could do, though it could also be that he's just crashing  . I think it's worth trying a longer A to see what happens if you get a decent morning again x

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Will try that tomorrow and see how we go,  assuming morning naps go ok.  Will keep you updated! 

[jessmum46]

Good luck!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Well something worked tonight but not sure what....!  Today went:

Wu: 7.25
A: 2 hrs 15
S: 1hr 30 (we woke him to ensure we could get a decent second nap)
A: 1hr 50 as he was rubbing his eyes but in retrospect he had a rash on his lower lid so think it was that
S: 1hr - 1hr 10 - he woke
A: 2 hrs 30. Pd at 2 hrs 10 after no sleepy signs at all.  Fought it but started yawning after 10 minutes and would have had a decent nap if we hadn't woken him.
S: 40 minutes (we woke him)
A: pd at 1hr 40 at 7pm
S : Don't know cos he went to sleep himself without a sound! 

I'm thinking either he likes having a bit less day sleep (lily was the same and wouldn't cn after a certain time and would hold out til bedtime instead) OR he likes a much longer A time before that third nap than I thought and possibly a slightly shorter A time before bed than I've been giving him OR he's been in pain from teething cos he's clearly been teething today so we did every drug and remedy we had before bed tonight. His teeth have been bothering him for a while but it was much worse today hence all the drugs! But maybe he'd needed it for the past few weeks as well?

If I can replicate similar A times tomorrow I will,  but will make his second A time at least 2 hours I think and maybe try and follow cues a bit for the third nap with a view to possibly extending them to around 2 hrs 15.  What do you think?

[jessmum46]

Great day!   I think it would probably be ok to let the longer naps run up to 2h, but if you find he goes down better after a 1h30 first nap that's fine   your plan sounds good x

[Buttonbobs]

Hi again just coming over now your other post has been locked. Katherine is giving you some fabulous advice and I'll be here too if you need.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Haven't had much chance to implement my plan for the afternoon yet cos he's started doing the odd short nap again so we're always adjusting A times to get better naps later in the day, but I think he might need an A time increase overall again...  This morning I put him down just over 2 hours after I got him up for the day (and 2 hrs 10 after him waking) and he was so grumpy about it I stopped mid wind down.  He hadn't shown any tired signs by this point apart from cuddling in a bit, which he does about 20 minutes before he's ready to sleep usually.  Because he didn't seem tired and had a good 12 hour night (apart from a nf at 5) I thought I'd try him again in 5 minutes.  We did some very quiet walking around and he yawned once so I put him down again about 2hrs 10 after he was up for the day and he went down better, chatted to himself for 10 minutes and went to sleep.  He's just stirring now after a 1hr 25 sleep.

Do you think that sounds like he could do with a slight A time increase in the morning?  And should I take it from when I get him up rather than when he wakes?  I think if I can get his morning A right then I'll have a better idea of what he needs for the afternoon cos he generally likes morning and afternoon A's to be similar and the one in between a bit shorter.  It's looking like he prefers up to 2hrs 15ish though which seems quite high for his age but we've been plagued by 40 minute naps since he was 3 months old which have always been resolved by upping his A time a bit so maybe he's just on the high side of average? 

We're going on holiday in a couple of days so I'm hoping I can at least figure out what normal is before we go so I know how to adjust if he's having a catch up day while we're away.  If he has a day of bad naps (inevitable), should I reduce A times slightly the next day to let him catch up do you think, or just stick to his normal routine and just give him the opportunity to sleep?

[jessmum46]

I would agree sounds like a slight A increase is in order.  If he is awake but quiet (as in you wouldn't know he was awake without a monitor) then I would count A time from when you get him up.  If he is awake and playing/chatting/fussing I would count A time from when that started

If you get a day of bad naps, I would be prepared to put him down up to 15 mins or so earlier than usual (especially for the first A) and take it from there.  Enjoy your holiday!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Thank you!  Will try upping that first A.  I need to watch his second A time when I do though cos he's just gone down OT for it at 2 hrs A time which he'd need if he'd been UT for his first nap but can't manage it when I'm stretching that first A by the looks of it.  He's always been like that.

If you don't hear from me for a while it's cos everything's gone haywire cos of the holiday but it's good knowing roughly where he is on a "normal" day (if such a thing exists!).

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Back again...  wasn't planning on coming on here during our holiday but we're having such a hard time with sleep I'm getting desperate!  He's still fighting every nap and is doing short naps which he won't resettle from and nights are getting worse.  I just don't know what to do with him   He's waking earlier for feeds and we've had several nights of two feeds.  Last night it was just one but it took an hour and  a half to get him back down.  I'm shattered.  We haven't even gone anywhere with him cos the weather's been so hot we've mostly stayed in, though he has just cut his first tooth and probably therefore has another on the way.

Yesterday we just followed cues and he didn't yawn or anything til about 2hrs 10/15 A time, but then fought his nap til he'd been up for about 2hrs 30.  He napped 35-40 minutes (probably 35 minutes as probably OT).  He then basically did OT naps all day so we AP's a bit and got him into bed 1 hr 15 after his last nap (with a 11.5 hour day) and he settled to bed well which is unusual at the moment!  But then he cried out about an hour after going to sleep and resettled himself, had a df at 11 which he always wakes up when we start, and woke again at 3 for a feed.  He then just wouldn't settle.

I'm sure my supply is quite low at the moment as in the night and during the as he's been crying when I finish a feed, but he's draining me and getting frustrated that I don't have enough milk.  He was doing the same in the night, but then I also think it may have been is teeth as eventually I gave him calpol and nurofen and fed him again and he settled eventually but had been up for an hour and a half by the time we were done.  He then slept til 7.

This morning he looked tired at about 1hr 40 so we put him down at 1hr 50 and he fought it again.  I went in (my husband was with him) at about the 2 hr mark and it distracted him and he fell asleep 10 minutes later after 2hrs 10 A time.  He woke again, chatting away, after about 35-40 minutes again.  My husband's just trying to resettle him now.

I just can't figure out what's going on?  It doesn't help that other people have been putting him down and getting him up and they don't mark the time as well as I do so I'm not sure if he's doing OT or UT naps.  His mood is good but he's a chilled out happy boy so that probably doesn't indicate much.  Anyway, I need a bit of a plan cos I'm sooo tired of listening to him cry before and after every nap and these more frequent NWs and long NWs are exhausting.  I'm also finding it really hard to relax about taking him out cos he doesn't nap well in the buggy and I feel like we're starting from bad sleep to start with.  Though I think I'm just going to have to get over that or I'll go mad! 

ETA: Sorry,  that was a bit of a sleep deprived rushed ramble!  Hope it makes some sort of sense!