early riser - earlier or later to bed?

[aidenmc]

Aiden's sleep has imroved so much over the last 2-3 weeks since he has finally gotten over teething his molars, and due to gradual removal. He still wakes 1-2 times in the night but settles usually with a pat. In the past he was up 3-6 times and would only BF back to sleep. Now DH can put him to bed and resettle him. I am so happy with these improvements but would love some advice on dealing with the early mornings.

THese days he wakes at around 5am give or take. As he usually hasn't had a night feed i will go in and feed him but he is wide awake. SOmetimes, like today, he will wake a little earlier (4:40) and still be somewhat tired but won't go back to sleep. THis morning I fed him and put him back in his crib. He led there for a while, chatting, fussing etc. I finally got him up at 5:40. Still very early to start the day.

I have not been able to get him to take more than about 10-10.5 hours of sleep at night since I can remember. His typical routine is as follows (he is almost 17 months):

5ish - wake, bf
7:00 breakfast
8:45 off to Montessori
12:00 home and lunch
12:30/1:00 nap - 1.5-2.5 hours (Usually about 2hrs)
5:30 dinner
7:00 asleep

THere are other activities and snacks in there as well. I know it is a very long time from wake-up time to nap, but I can't make it any earlier. I did toy with the idea of a quick captnap early in the morning but that has not been very useful (i.e. he won't go down, or if he does, it jeopardizes the afternoon nap. It doesn't get him extra sleep in any case).

He goes into his crib at about 6:40 with DH and it usually takes about 20-30 minutes for him to fall asleep (less with dh there, more with me).

ON the odd days where he wakes up later (usually if there is a longer wake-up, say he is awake for an hour at 3 ish) he does not fall asleep as easily for nap. Right now he is still nursing to sleep for that, but we will train him out of it during the holidays.

So I guess my main question is whether he needs an earlier or later bedtime. As you can see he gets about 12 hours of sleep, which is what he has been doing for months and months. If we do an earlier bedtime he may get more sleep but may not wake any later. If we shift to a later bedtime, it may be better for us (if he gradually shifts his wake-up time), but he will not likely get more sleep.

His mood is so much better now during the day. He is a different child. I just don't know whether he needs more sleep than he is getting.

[dmills]

This is probably not what you want to hear, but I would suggest just toying with his schedule a bit.  We have found that with our ds he wakes now about 6AM no matter if he goes to bed at 7PM or 10PM.  We always try to have the routine completed between 7 and 7:30, but every now and then something comes up.  He is now 26 months.  I did find that when he was younger and still in the crib, I could usually go in and tell him it wasn't morning yet and put him back down.  Sometimes he would cry and others not.  If he cried, I would wait a bit and do the same thing.  A lot of times I could get another 20 minutes out of him, but that was about it.  Hope this is somewhat helpful.

[imsmum]

I don't really have much advice to give other than i would not push back the bedtime.  My dd around that age was on a 7:30-5:30 night 12:30-2 nap.  Your ds is up for 14 hours (nap included) and I think if you do more than that you risk overtiredness at bedtime and night wakings as a result.  what you might want to try is pushing the morning bf back and not going in to feed him right away because his internal clock is probably programmed for a feed at that time.  when my dd was waking that early around that age I read that it was a bit develomental because that is the time that they transition from the lighter sleep in the second half of the night to that hour or so of deeper sleep right before wakeup.  Some lo's just seem to have difficulty with that transition around that age, but if there is a feed in there as well it probably makes things worse.  HTH   

[aidenmc]

THanks. I might try that tomorrow morning. Today's nap was only 1 hr  so I will actually go with an earlier bedtime tonight.

[Leosmama]

Hey Becky,

as you well know I'm in the same boat as you.  I'm considering delaying the first nursing till after the solid breakfast, but it's confusing to know what to do when they're waking at 4:45 or so.  I mean, if you don't want to get up at that time, what exactly do you do until breakfast?  Like you, I try feeding him when he wakes early and put him back in his crib to see if he'll go back to sleep, but no luck    Like Aiden, he'll just babble or fuss until I finally decide it's time to get up for the day.  It kind of feels like a no win situation - either feed them when they wake in the hopes that you can get them back down, or don't feed and have them be unhappy and frustrated until you get up.

I'm going to keep watching this thread to see what you do and how things go.  Good luck!

Jennifer

[aidenmc]

Hi Jennifer,

I thought you would find me here! I am feeling more and more like we have the same lo! The past couple of nights he has gone through without a feed but that early morning is getting tough! DH is putting him to bed now (hopefully he will be asleep by 6:30) but he was pretty energetic when he went in and started crying when I passed him over. That happened last night too which is strange. He hasn't done that for quite a while. Maybe he is overtired...

I know I shouldn't be complaining about this problem, given that he will go 5-6 hours at a time and usually only needs a pat to get back to sleep. I am also seeing that the nap is falling apart. Today he slept only 1 hour. I know he went down a little too late given his wake-up time, but I used to be able to nurse him back to sleep. No way today. He has been gassy too though, so that may be playing a part in it. How is Leo doing? Are you still doing the dream feed in the early morning?

[aidenmc]

6:40 and ds still not asleep. Wondering if the earlier bedtime was a mistake. He really did not want to go to bed but it was only 1/2 hour earlier. He was up at 4:40 (less than 10 hrs sleep) and only had 1 hr nap. Go figure!

Was just reading the sticky on how someone got rid of the early mornings with a later nap and bedtime. I hate when DS resists sleep - and I know DH won't be happy when he emerges from the room

[Leosmama]

Hi Becky,

Yes, I do believe our babies must be twins were separated at birth!     I had the same thing with today's nap; Leo woke just before 5am, took a 30 min. nap in the stroller from 8:45-9:15 on the way to the ped's, then went to sleep for his nap at 12:45 and only slept 1 hour (and I swear that a.m. catnap was partly to blame).  I just got him down for the night; he fell asleep a little before 6:30 but he was wound up and it took him a good 30 minutes to settle.  We've also had that experience where if I hand him to dh for him to put him down, he gets really upset.  Gotta love that separation anxiety.

I keep going back and forth about whether to do the df.  I think I may try the 4am df again, but I'm concerned that that will only perpetuate this cycle of him always being hungry before it's time to get up.  But when I don't do it, he's awake at that ridiculous time anyway, and holding him off from feeding seems to make him pretty frustrated.  Also, with putting them to bed on the early side, I guess it only seems reasonable to get a feed in there, since 6:30pm - 6:00am is a long time.

Did you try nursing him back to sleep when he woke from his nap, and it just didn't work?  Or are you working on not nursing to sleep?  I thought about doing that when Leo woke from his nap today, but I had a new babysitter here and didn't want to be spending a lot of time in his room doing that while she waited.

Let's hope we both get a stroke of good luck tonight!

Jennifer

[aidenmc]

So this morning he woke at 4:17 and would not go back to sleep! Aargh! I am thinking about doing a dream feed or w2s at 3:30 or so. Not sure if it will help. So hard to know what to do at that time of day!

Jennifer. I did try to nurse back to sleep for yesterday's nap but he was too wakeful for some reason. He would not let me take him off the boob and after a few rounds of taking him off he woke up more and more. He then had a large burp, which I suspect is the cause of him wanting to stay on (he has always been like that...wierd).

Anyway, I definitely have an overtired boy now. It takes so long to get back on track when this happens, whcih is frustrating to me. I suspect he will wake part-way through his nap today because he will be so overtired. I just hope taht this time I can get him back to sleep.

[Leosmama]

oh, Becky, I totally feel for you.  I was all set to do the 4am df last night, and Leo woke up at 2:30!  At first I tried the usual patting his back and shh'ing, and when that didn't work, I changed his diaper and covered him back up with his blanket, but he was all squirmy and restless so I finally decided to get him up and nurse him.  Took a while, but he did fall back asleep at 4.  Then he slept till 6.  Thing is, I'm happy to start the day at 6, but not when my lo has a 1.5 hr sleep deficit from the night!  I know what you mean about how it takes so long to get them all caught up, and just when you do, it seems like something always comes up to throw everything off again.  I just wish it wasn't such a delicate balance.

I definitely recommend the df at 3:30 or so.  If you can get to him before he wakes on his own, you can really extend his sleep.  Good luck!

[aidenmc]

Hi again,

Yep things seem to be going from bad to worse. I made another post after he took a 1 hour nap again! He hasn't napped this poorly since I can remember! I tried to get him to bed at 5:30 but I started at 5:15 and only got him to sleep a full hour later! So, in the end he was only in bed less than an hour earlier than normal. I know he will wake early again and I am dreading it. I almost prefer when he wakes and has a feed at 3 ish, or even wakes for 1.5 hours in the night (which my guy does) because if it is late enough at least I know he will sleep a little later - even with a deficit! SO frustrating!

[imsmum]

On the w/e when he doesn't have Montessori I would move his nap and bedtime forwad at least 1/2 hour--bedtime even earlier than that if he only naps one hour.  If my dd has a crappy night or nap I do that for a day or 2 and she catches up on her sleep and we can go back to her normal schedule.