is cio the only way to go?

[Aishi]

I have tried EVERYTHING with my 4 yo ds to get him to sttn but if its not ew it's long nw's. I've changed his routine, broken props using wiwo or gw, used a reward chart, talked about needing sleep out of the moment etc. Nothing works for more than a few days...

His BT is set at 7.30 and he had been waking at 5/5.30 a few weeks ago. I used w2s and wu shifted to 6-7 for a few days. However the other night he had a nw at 11 and came to my bed. I took him back and he sttn till 7. Same thing last night but he wouldn't go back to sleep. I did wiwo from 11-1 and he just got hysterical. He wanted me to co sleep. In the end I put his nightlight on and he woke at 6.45 this morning.

Ive let him have his nightlight on before when he went through a phase of being scared of the dark about two weeks ago but he would then either have long nws or wouldn't go back to sleep after an ew cos the light kept him awake. That's when I used GW and now we're having nws.

Hes 4yrs2mo and its been constant ews or nws and I've just had enough. Nothing works with him. He needs at least 11h sleep otherwise he gets cranky and ot.

Any other ideas besides cio?

Tia xx

[HenaV]

You know CIO isn't the answer Aishi, you've been on BW for long enough to know there are better solutions right? I have no experience of this age BUT am just wondering if it's an age thing. You been tweaking within an inch of your life but could it just be a matter of riding it out?

I hope someone comes along with some btdt advice soon but here to hold your hand in the meantime xxx

[*Liz*]

I still get a lot of NWings with my 4 year old. She can STTN, and does, but gets a lot dreams and night terrors which then leave her upset/ fearful and unable to sleep. What I find really tough though is that she throws a wobbly and won't speak or accept help, so then I end up with several tantrums to deal with instead  .

I doubt a simple CIO would even work at this age TBH. I mean, they would just get out surely?!

I'm currently using a reward chart to see if it helps. I think she needs to be a little bit more independent at night, and only call if she wants something. I think the shouting may be a habit. Obviously if she had a NT that wouldn't count (and she wouldn't know anyway!).

My other thought is putting a baby mattress on the floor in my room she can sleep on instead, I have my doubts as she usually rejects comfort, but I may try.

It's hard  .

I can remember a phase with DS where I had to teach him to do things himself eg get the water cup himself, find his bear himself and slowly that did deal with the call outs. But he has consistently STTN since age 4 really.

Both mine have night lights, I have worried about them for years, DD won't sleep without it and won't have the door shut. She will often sleep until 7 or 8 even in summer so I just don't believe it can be light sensitivity. If we are away from home without lights, they both wake crying.

And really, at this age it isn't about not waking is it? It is about being independent when they stir in normal NWing moments. And that is what our kids are not doing  .

[Aishi]

Sorry Hena I didn't explain myself very well. When I say CIO I don't mean leave him upset but when hes screaming and shouting cos he's mad at me for not co sleeping.

Liz I don't think its a phase if it is its a life long one so far! Lol he actually is independent at nws- hes been able to find his water cup, use the potty, put his blanket on since he was three so I know its not that...

[becj86]

So why is he waking? Do you know?

Does he need his mummy cup filled? L wakes more if I work more... He actually STTN more consistently when I had a full day just with him each week. Not sure if that feasible for you, of course, or if that's even the issue but the long NWs or EWs requesting cuddles have always been him wanting more contact with me.

[Aishi]

Idk Bec. Im a sahm mum so its not normally a problem but I was busy and didn't spend much time with yesterday. That was a one off tho...

He does ask me to sleep with him at nws and gets angry when I say no and do wiwo

[Hedgehog17]

I don't think him yelling at you 'cos he's angry is the same as CIO - I mean he's 4yo, can express his feelings and thoughts, and isn't a helpless infant!

If he's having a tantrum because you won't do what he wants, then it's a tantrum, not CIO 

I think he'll likely get bored of tantruming after a few nights and accept that he stays in his bed from 7.30pm to 7am (if that is your prefered times, and the BT rule). If you give in sometimes and let him co-sleep, then he'll keep tantruming, as it sometimes gets him what he wants 

The other option is to co-sleep until he doesn't want to anymore 

Unfortunately it's one of those things where there is no middle path - either he co-sleeps or he doesn't, and it's tough either way 

[*Liz*]

Certainly isn't a phase here either. It's a very longstanding issue  .

I would say reward chart to reinforce and treat as a tantrum instead really  .

[michaeljacknnugg]

Having had similar issues with DS being up early for many years, I wonder if the problem that you need to address is not his sleep but what happens when he wakes. If you keep reinforcing his callouts by responding to them, I'm guessing that they will keep happening.

I would decide what is acceptable for you and what's not, and then sit everyone down and explain the new rules.

Unfortunately some kids don't sleep as much as they need to (and I know how painful that is,, I have one too) but all we can do as parents is to provide the right conditions for sleep. I don't think tweaking at his age is going to achieve much and really as long as you have him in bed at a decent time most nights then you are doing a fabulous job. Any more and you'll drive yourself crazy trying to control something that's out of your control.

[Aishi]

Hmm plenty food for thought.

I def don't want to co sleep. That was a really hard prop to break!

wiwo it is then. So i tell him the rules beforehand, reinforce his reward chart and ignore any call outs if they're unnecessary and take him back to bed silently when he comes to mine. If he's tantrumming, ignore. If he gets upset, quickly comfort and continue with wiwo even if he starts shouting again?

The only thing with this is that dd is nap dropping and won't use white noise. I don't want ds waking her :-/ I was thinking gabout telling him that if he leave him room I will lock his door and just hold it closed so he can't leave. That way the noise will be a bit muted. Is that going to be traumatic?!

[Aishi]

Thinking about what u said MJN I think you make a good point. He's going to wake when he does and I can't make him sleep wo bt shenanigans and drama. So I think I'll let him have a nightlight on if it keeps him in his room and tell him that if he comes out of his bed before the sun comes out be that due to nw or ew I will turn his nightlight off as a consequence. And just do wiwo at that point.

That's fair enough isn't it?

I've just left his room. He asked me to co sleep and as a compromise I told him he can have his nightlight on. He's quiet still so let's hope this works. Now I just need to stop stressing about him not going back to sleep for ages at nws or having an ew :-/

[deb]

At about the same age with Natalie, we eventually set up a sleeping bag in our room at the bottom of our bed and gave Nat permission to go there if she woke in the night. She'd often wander over around 3-4AM and then go back to sleep, and she'd be so quiet that we wouldn't know she was there till we ourselves woke in the morning. Might you be open to something like that? The deal was that we needed to keep sleeping, so if she came in she had to be quiet, and she kept that.

[Aishi]

I would be ok with it but I don't think ds would comply but once I allow him to do that he will keep asking to do it but still won't go back to sleep yk? He's very persistent like that...

[michaeljacknnugg]

I think you have a good plan! I would probably have some kind of consequence for waking his sister in the night/early morning so that he worries about it, not you.

[Buntybear]

Aishi, Olly comes out with odd requests like door open, or a light on these days. TBH I tend to go with it as what harm can it do? It is giving them some control and if it helps him sleep - so be it.

Are you in the UK? We have been having some funny nights what with the light evenings and the heat. He is in bed at least 30 mins later than he was before the clocks changed. BT used to be lights off at 7.30 - now I aim for 8 but it is often later.