waking before df

[frankiesmom]

Hi, what do I do if ds wakes before the df?  He is 15 weeks old.  On a 4 hour EASY.  Hopefully he takes two 2 hour naps at 9 and one at 1 and then a catnap at 5 and in bed by 7:30.  He used to get a bottle of formula at 10:30 from dh but now he is waking up anywhere betwen 9:30 and 10:15.  Pat/sh does not work to get him back down and if we try to give him his bottle then he freaks!  He will bf but I am thinking it is not really from hunger.  However, he is really not bf well since I started solids for his reflux and he rarely eats before he goes to bed.  He just rolls off my breast, arches his back and cries.  I think maybe he is overtired, but even if I try earlier he won't eat. So, I have been bf him when he wakes before the df and then he is waking like clockwork between 1 and 1:15 and 4:15 and 4:30.  He bf for about 5 minutes and then goes right back to sleep.  I know he doesn't need these feedings, but I don't know how to fix it.  I know the 3 problems (not eating well during the day, waking up before his df, and night wakings) are all related, but I don't know which one to tackle first or how to do it. 
Do you think if we gave him his df earlier and then slowly pushed it back to 10:30 that might work?
I would love any other suggestions.

Thanks, Kim

How old is your child? 15.5 weeks
What’s his/her daily routine? 4 hour EASY
7:30 wake, bf
8:30 pears
9:30 sleep
11:30 wake, bf
12:30 cereal
1:30 sleep
hopefully 2 hours, sometimes 45 minutes
3:00 wake, bf
5:00 catnap (30 minutes)
6:30 bath
7:00 bf
7:15, 7:30 bed

What’s nap routine? change diaper, look at changing table mobile, swaddle with arms out (we are weaning), sing, put down awake, burrows head into mattress
How long are naps? 45 minutes to 2 hours
What's bedtime routine? Time? same bedtime routine except no swaddle as we did not see any improvement when we tried to reswaddle
Do you bottle or breastfed?? bf except for df
How much? or how long? he rarely eats for longer then 10 minutes, often only 5!
If breastfed.. one side or both?? (at each feed) one side
How many wakes per night? 3
What’s your LO like when waking at night? How long is he/she up? goes right back to sleep after waking, doesn't get crazy upset, burrowing head into mattress, eyes are often closed, may actually be a mantra cry but will escalate if I let him go.  Patting seems to agitate him and if I pick him up, he really screams, so I know he is trying to get back to sleep
When you go to him/her is she fussing or crying? Or is it a mantra cry? see above
What have you tried to settle??see above
What do you do for A time and how long is it? alot of talking to, laying on his gymboree, some tummy time, some carrying around b/c I am chasing my 2 year old.  A time is 2 1.75 to 2 hours, may be long for his age, but I have tried less and it just doens't work
Are there developmental issues such as teething or milestones? maybe trying to roll
Have you introduced cereal? Why, how much, and how many times a day? (for LO’s under 6 months) yes, 2 times a day and in his df bottle b/c of his reflux (on prilosec)
Do they have a prop? If so what is it? no
Do they have a lovie? no

[Jaime]

hi,

a couple things jumped out at me from reading your post:

How much? or how long? he rarely eats for longer then 10 minutes, often only 5!

I have been bf him when he wakes before the df and then he is waking like clockwork between 1 and 1:15 and 4:15 and 4:30.  He bf for about 5 minutes and then goes right back to sleep.

do you feel he is getting a full feed in those 5 minutes (day or night)?  i.e. do your breasts feel empty?  if so, sounds like he's a really efficient eater.  if not, you may want to post on the breastfeeding board to get some tips on how to extend those feeds.  if he's not getting a complete feed, he's getting a lot of fore milk (which might possibly be contributing to the reflux) and not as much hind milk (full of fat & feel full stuff).  keep in mind too that one feed a night may also just be normal for now.

How old is your child? 15.5 weeks
What’s his/her daily routine? 4 hour EASY

does his daytime sleep seem to be okay?  he's kinda young to be on a 4hr, especially cause he is bf.  possible, though, but i wonder if he's just not getting enough calories from your milk in the daytime, and that's why he's feeding twice at night. 

as far as the df goes (since that was your original question!), seems to me i remember reading that if they started waking for it, you should give it earlier, in hopes that they will start sleeping longer, and you can eventually phase it out.

kinda out of my league here - never did a df or solids before 6 months or dealt with reflux - just wanted to throw some stuff out there!   

[frankiesmom]

thanks for your help. I know, the bf thing bothers me.  I already posted on there about that.  Believe it or not, alot of people said that their lo's only ate for 5 minutes. My breasts do feel empty after he eats, so maybe it is enough. 
As far as the 4 hour EASY, I thought it seemed too much A time for him too, but he really was not eating at 3.5 hours and if I shortened his naps to 1.5 hours, his third nap was always 30 minutes and then he refused a 4th nap, so this seems to be the best solution for us. 
2 nights ago, he woke at 2 and ate well and then woke again at 4:30. I did pat/sh for an hour until he went back to sleep. I knew he didn't need to eat again.  He was happy as a clam when he woke at 7 and then ate really well in the am and all day and took great naps. 
Can you tell me more about W2S, b/c I really think his 4 am feed is a habit.  I have done it for naps before, but from what I read, you do it an hour before they usually wake.  And does the waking have to be at exactly the same time?  It is usually between 4 and 4:30, so could I wake him at 3?

One last question, how did your nights look without a df?  I feel like the df is starting to disrupt him.  My first lo, did great with it.  But last night, he woke when dh tried it and he freaked out and then wouldn't take the bottle so I had to bf him and then he was super agitiated when going back to sleep.  It can really be hit or miss with it and sometimes I think it is causing more harm then good.

Thanks,
Kim

[Jaime]

One last question, how did your nights look without a df?

LOL - you're probably going to shoot me.  hmmm.... from about 3 months on bedtime was 8pm in our house.  it just worked best for all of us.  with dd, i would cluster feed around 4pm, 6pm & 8pm, and that would hold her until the morning.  she did not fall asleep while eating, and i would then swaddle her & put her to bed.  when she was little there was only tracy's first book & i never really understood the concept of a df, and this worked for us anyhow so there was no need. 

with ds, i HAD figured out what the df is, and we tried it too, but it just didn't work.  i think part of it was that he was just a natural night-owl at first, and a df encouraged further NW.  that was no good, for sure!    the other issue was that i was full-time pumping for him.  so he would eat around 3-4pm, then take 2 larger bottles at around 6pm & 8pm before bed.  he did pretty well at night too. 

df does not work for all babies. 

Can you tell me more about W2S

sure!  that i have done, with success!     we had a 4am habit too.  (seems like all 4 month old babies got that memo  )  while he wasn't hungry, he was sure angry that he was up.  usually, a waking within a 15 minute interval is habitual, though if you feel he's not hungry, it's likely habitual.  what you do is go in about an hour before, during that really deep sleep, and stroke their head or tummy or whatever.  it needs to be enough so that he stirs, but doesn't fully wake.  the idea is that you bring him out of that deep sleep into shallower sleep at 3am, so that at 4am he's back in deep sleep & not as likely to wake up.

now, i was too lazy to get up at 3am, so i experimented with doing it around 11pm when i went to bed.  believe it or not, it worked.  not sure if it was a fluke or if it will work for everyone, but thought i'd throw that out there too.