How to start independent sleep training?

[Jouena]

Hello,
I need help with teaching independent sleep - where do I begin and what to do if baby is not crying for PU/PD?
My baby is 5.5 months old, sleeps in his crib, sttn (9pm-7am roughly), but is incapable of putting himself to sleep, naps and all. Spends up to 20 min by himself then calls out for me couple times gradually escalating to out loud crying. It's been like this since he was 1.5 months old. He has never fallen asleep by himself.
I want to teach him to fall asleep independently but I'm confused. PU/PD is a technique to use when baby is crying. But it must be used as last resort when all other methods fail. What are these other methods? Shush/pat? I sing, hold his arms from flailing and he has a paci - these surely do not work as sleep training also my baby starts crying after 15-20 min. Should I PU/PD then? But what about the wasted 20 min? If I begin PU/PD after, I'll have an OT baby. If I put him in crib 20 min earlier I'll have an UT baby. Both cases feel like a lost cause from the start.
I'd really appreciate advice on how to begin! Unfortunately the book does not offer a coherent answer to my question
Thanks in advance!

[Bella89]

Hi Juena,
I am not sure if I would be able to help you, but I will try:)
So, to understand it better, how exactly does he fall asleep right now? Walk me through it. You come into the room, give him pacifier, put in the crib/hold in your arms/rock to sleep?
So shush/pat is a method used with newborns/first months because it uses sounds that they are used to in the womb. For older children you have PU/PD, but it is suppose to work with children up to a certain age as well. For older children PU/PD can actually disturb their sleep more than help. Here, you have to observe your LO if he gets frustrated and tired by PU/PD more than it calms him down that it would mean he is too old for it. My DS was PU/PD when he was 6 months and it worked, when he was 7 it was getting him frustrated.

I would say talk to him. Build a routine - we're going to bed now, close curtain, goodnight. I wonder what he expects from you now - presence/touch/song, what is his prop. Maybe if we find it we can g from here:)

Also, read through Tracy's interview. It helped me a lot:
Sleep interviews and member consults with Tracy

[Jouena]

Hello Bella- hope that is your name I always prefer to address by name even if it's a nickname instead of impersonal messaging
Our routine for every sleep is this: go into bedroom, change diaper, walk to window say good bye to the sun/moon, close curtains, here I start humming a lullaby, walk to crib, hold k rich for a minute, kiss him and put him down with "good night". Then I give him his paci, cover with blanket. Here he takes a minute to eat the blanket, wiggle around, drum his feet. When he settles I hold his hand or both - cuz if let free they flail, he takes the paci out and generally gets too involved in his hands that cannot fall aseep. Sometimes I hold legs too depending on his level of excitement and keep humming the lullaby all the time and putting the paci back when it falls out. Usually he falls asleep within 15 min.
I am his prop, no doubt. But I can't leave his hands out - he won't fall asleep. Can't a waddle either - we dropped the a waddle by 2 months as it was doing more harm - he got too frustrated and hysterical, needed his freedom.
What do you think?

[Katet]

jouena, I'm not sure you totally are his prop.  My DH just changed job & he's now the Accountant for one of our Cities Baby health networks & the do lots of work with sleep issues (including over night stays) so yesterday I had to visit DH at work to sort out a problem & we were doing it over lunch, he was running late & so I was sitting in the staff room with one of the specialty nurses & we got talking & I was telling about all my trials with my boys. & she said quite simply we are always telling parents  that with lots of babies you do need to invest 15-20mins every time to get them to  sleep it is only some lucky ones that can go in spend 2mins to wind the child down & then they go off to sleep, many of them just need that time & help to calm down.

The only other thing I'd say is that if he's ok in there for 15-20mins then maybe his A time isn't quite as long as it could be & he is happy awake looking at things then gets bored & realises he wants company, so maybe try keeping him up 10-15mins longer & spending a bit longer in the wind down stage before you put him down.

[Bella89]

Yes, Bella is my real name:)
I am with previous mama. Looking at your going to bed routine and other posts that you put up here, you're doing great! The only thing is, this is time for a little change and improve your EASY to accomodate your baby's growth:)
Work on increasing A time, like we suggested in other posts, and you will quickly see he will have less appetite for playing before sleep.
15 min at that age is really not bad. At 10,5 months I spend with my DS none-5min, but It was improving with time. Hopefully, in a year or so I would be like "Hey, go to bed little man:)"
Do you think that can be it? That you still have time for playing a little before nap?

[Jouena]

Ladies - thank you so very much for your time, attention and advice!
Simply hearing that i'm doing it great alleviates all my anxiety and solves all my issues
I will certainly work on increasing his A time to 2,5h and see if it helps with both my issues - short naps and independent sleep.
However, there are couple things I'd like to mention.
1. I don't know if I made it clear that the 15 min it takes for him top fall asleep I am holding his hands and the pacifier all the time. I know 15-20 min is exactly by the Book, but ideally he should take that time to fall asleep on his own, without me holding him. Or am I just being too idealistic and making up problems for myself with this one? after all, as Bella said, it happened gradually with her LO.
2.

The only other thing I'd say is that if he's ok in there for 15-20mins then maybe his A time isn't quite as long as it could be & he is happy awake looking at things then gets bored & realises he wants company, so maybe try keeping him up 10-15mins longer & spending a bit longer in the wind down stage before you put him down.

I really don't know if the problem is in extra 15 mins. He is not exactly happy and awake, playing. He is sleepy, often even with eyes closed within 5 minutes of being put into crib, but if left alone, his hands are all over the place inevitably pulling the paci out which causes crying. Vicious circle, you see? Although the suggestion sounds perfectly logical and worth a try! Especially prolonging the WD
Thanks again for suggestions - gone to implement
Will surely report on the progress in a couple days!

[Katet]

Or am I just being too idealistic and making up problems for myself with this one? after all, as Bella said, it happened gradually with her LO.

To a degree (& with the value of hindsight) being a bit idealistic... yes there are babies that will be put to bed & fall asleep with no help, others not so much... As my friend said this morning (as we patted ourselves on the back as to the successes of our 12yo) What made us 'good' parents to the children we have is we choose to take the time to listen to what our children are telling us much more than what the noise around us saying. Both my boys weren't the best sleepers -  in hindsight I know why (health issues with DS1 & LSN with DS2) but the best lesson I've carried with me from those days is 'work with the child I have"... your baby will have so many ups & downs in life & meeting ideals will be rare. I agree the "books" may well be saying he should be able to ..." BUT they all develop at different rates & ever so gradually you will find if you take the time you can lessen that involvement & it will come, but I absolutely have to say being 12 years further down the track, worry less about things like that & more about enjoying the moment, because blink & it will be over & him going to sleep with no help isn't going to be the difference between him learning to read & write or having friends or any other things down the track it's just time you either spend with him or time you don't.

I think what you need to do is cut back the holding so if you are holding his hands 100% of the time then count to 30 & stop for the count of 3 or so & then repeat & gradually over time build up to 50% of the time & keep going... effectively wean off the holding.

[Bella89]

I think what you need to do is cut back the holding so if you are holding his hands 100% of the time then count to 30 & stop for the count of 3 or so & then repeat & gradually over time build up to 50% of the time & keep going... effectively wean off the holding.

I totally agree. There is such a thing like a gradual withdrawal of... you!! SO basically, you try holding his hand less and less, than you sit (or knee like a did) by his bedside, than you just stay in the room and it builds up a distance to let him do his thing.
Also, if you have to hold the paci in his mouth because he spits it out, is it possible that he simply doesn't need it or doesn't want it?

[Jouena]

Katet,
your words are precious!! -

worry less about things like that & more about enjoying the moment, because blink & it will be over & him going to sleep with no help isn't going to be the difference between him learning to read & write or having friends or any other things down the track it's just time you either spend with him or time you don't.

Since Jude was born I realised I have issues with setting my expectations too high and demanding compliance from him and myself I'm learning - he is teaching me - to let go of the unimportant (which is almost everything but my LO )And as much as a right routine is important, it's not more important than mommy-baby time.
I love the "gradual withdrawal" plan - exactly what I had in mind but did not know how to!
Re: paci - he is not spitting it out, he looses it and when he does he gets very upset. Guess he has not learnt to suck on it properly yet, poor thing
I also realised that I am holding his hands for no other reason than to prevent him pulling out the paci. Let's see how it goes! I'm optimistic
Promise to report back on results in a couple days!

[Bella89]

Feels to me like you know exactly what to do:) I keep my fingers crossed!!

It's easier said than done for most of us honey:( So... one nap at a time, one day at a time

[Katet]

Since Jude was born I realised I have issues with setting my expectations too high and demanding compliance from him and myself  I'm learning - he is teaching me - to let go of the unimportant (which is almost everything but my LO  )And as much as a right routine is important, it's not more important than mommy-baby time.

Honestly I think there is a lot of pressure on us & while I loved reading parenting books etc when my 2 were little they do also have the negative side that we set up expectations that our children "should" & I found with myself that I needed things like a good sleeper, well behaved child to make me feel like a 'good' parent. What I fined kind of ironic is that the less effort I have put into fitting my expectations & the more I've put into understanding my children & their needs developmentally and emotionally will drive their actions, they will throw food because they are learning to use their muscles not because they are being naughty, they will climb on furniture because their muscles need it, they will fidget at bedtime because they are made that way, it's not us doing anything "wrong" it's just our children haven't red the books & the books are a generalisation that are a guide, but not the rule book KWIM.