Author Topic: Help with 3 year old night wakings  (Read 2308 times)

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Offline Laalaalaa

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Help with 3 year old night wakings
« on: February 12, 2015, 03:42:36 am »
Hi all,

I'm really going someone can help. My daughter will be three in 2 weeks time. She has always been a bit of a difficult sleeper but after doing gradual withdrawal when she was almost two, we had some success at full nights sleep.

We moved her to a toddler bed in August and that is when the fun started! She would not stay in the bed and after a couple of weeks of trying to resolve it, we ended up taking the path of least resistance and letting her come into our bed in the early hours of the morning. Around the same time, we somehow got back into the habit of staying with her whilst she fell asleep at bedtime. I have no idea how we let that one slip!!

Anyway, after 5-6 months of cosleeping, we decided we needed our bed back as none of us were getting good quality sleep. So, we started by telling her that when she came into our bedroom, we'd be taking her back to her bed. Rather than do it too suddenly, we decided to take it slowly (after all it's our fault for letting her in our bed for so long!) So, for the first two weeks, we took her back to her room and gave her lots of. Cuddles and attention before putting her back to bed.

That went well and she quickly realised she wouldn't be coming back into our bed. So we moved on to trying to get her to sleep independently. We used rapid return. That worked really well for bedtime and we  can now leave the room before she's asleep and she falls asleep on her own.

But....... three weeks after starting rapid return and we are still getting two night wake ups. One at around midnight and the other at 5am. She has developed an aversion to my husband and really fights him if he tries to get her back in her bed so as a consequence it has pretty much 100% been me doing this and I am so fed up. Some nights she will go back down straight away but at least once a week sometimes twice (like tonight) she will be awake for 2-3 hours and will not go back to sleep. I try to behave like a robot so I sm not showing her any attention but it's hard because she constantly tries to talk to me and asks me questions. She uses my hair as a comfort so I bought a silk scarf for her to cuddle. We also bought her a special cuddly toy to see if she could make that her comfort object. I have put a drink, torch, book and biscuit in her bedroom in case she wakes but she still comes in to our bedroom to ask me to give whatever she needs to her (I take her back, refuse and say she can get it herself). The only time I really give in is to let her use the toilet because although she is in night nappies, I want her to get into the habit of using the toilet instead of the nappy.
 
I am really at my wits end for what to do next. On nights like tonight I can feel the anger rising and I end up getting cross with her which doesn't help anything. Or I end up crying because I am so tired.

Has anyone had similar issues? What worked for other people?

Please help!

Offline Truly Blessed

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Re: Help with 3 year old night wakings
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2015, 12:38:05 pm »
Hello Hun,

First of all we all fall into parenting practices that we regret, so don't beat yourself up about that! ;) To my mind the co-sleeping issue has gone, so I would leave that behind, you have handled it really well getting her back on track, so well done, I agree with all of what you have done and think you made good choices. I have just answered a thread which is almost completely parallel to this one! I will post the link at the bottom in case you haven't seen it, I am sure you can support each other and be kindred spirits lol. I will ask the same questions of you though:

What is her current sleep routine  ???

Is there anything happening personally that may be affecting her  ???

As a matter of interest to you the 3 year developmental leap was the worst for us  ::) we had several weeks of awful behaviour and sleep, but it passed, as it always does.

I'll wait for your reply and then hopefully we can come up with a plan.

Vick.x.

Re: Bedtime stuff and night wakings, 3-year old



Offline Laalaalaa

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Re: Help with 3 year old night wakings
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2015, 23:13:10 pm »
Hi Vick,

Thanks so much for your reply. It's good to know we're not the only ones going through this! We had another bad night last night so I really want to sort it out for everyone's sanity!

She usually wakes at 6:30am which is also when my husband's alarm goes off. She hasn't had an afternoon nap since about July/August because we realised it was causing major issues at bedtime. Any nap, even 30 minutes delayed bedtime to 9:30/10pm.

Bedtime routine starts at 7pm and she's usually asleep by 7:40pm however on days when she's has a bad night before, I start the bedtime routine at 6pm with bedtime by 6:45pm. She will also sleep in a bit later the next day (7am - 7:30am)

There haven't been any major changes recently. The only one was moving from a cot to a big bed last Auhust and that's when the sleep problems started.

Hope that helps?

Louise

Offline Truly Blessed

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Re: Help with 3 year old night wakings
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2015, 12:20:59 pm »
Hi Louise,

I'm so sorry for the late reply, we have been away visiting our new Granddaughter :)

How are things

It's interesting that the problems started when she moved from her cot, and not unusual. Can you tell me does she tack sleep on in the morning if she has an early night  ??? Without a nap it is the only way to counteract OT, so if you think you can achieve a longer night this way I would give it a try, even just until she plays catch up. It should think OT has kicked in by now and is responsible for the NW, it may have built up over time since she dropped the nap. When DS dropped the nap, he had an 11 hour day for a few weeks and slowly lengthened to 11.5 then eventually 12.

Thoughts  ???

((HUGS))

Vicki.x.



Offline Laalaalaa

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Re: Help with 3 year old night wakings
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2015, 23:00:52 pm »
Hi Vicki,

Congratulations on your granddaughter!

Things are ok here. We had three good nights in a row (1-2 wake ups but straight back to bed) followed by one bad night (up for 3 hours!). I think you're right about her being overtired. When she's had a really bad night, she usually sleeps in later but this only catches up about 1-1.5 hours. Then I put her to bed about an hour earlier. But even so, she still doesn't end up having as much sleep as she should.

By tacking on a morning sleep, do you mean a nap after she has woken for the day? She doesn't do this unless we're in the car and even then it will only be 20-30 mins. Do you think i should be trying to get a morning nap out of her to combat OT? She's in preschool three mornings a week so it won't happen then but I can try to do that on the other 4 days.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks!

Offline Truly Blessed

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Re: Help with 3 year old night wakings
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2015, 22:30:02 pm »
Hi Honey,

Congratulations on your granddaughter!

Thank you :)


By tacking on a morning sleep, do you mean a nap after she has woken for the day?

Sorry, no I mean if she has an early night does she sleep on in the morning.

Do you think i should be trying to get a morning nap out of her to combat OT? She's in preschool three mornings a week so it won't happen then but I can try to do that on the other 4 days.

Personally I wouldn't Hun, I think it would probably result in BT resistance and a shorter night :(

If she does 'tack on' I would try for an early night after an 11 hour day and see what happens.

Thoughts  ???

((HUGS))

x.



Offline Laalaalaa

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Re: Help with 3 year old night wakings
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2015, 21:00:26 pm »
Hi there,

We've had another few good nights with only 2 wake ups but all she does is come into our room and I carry her back to bed and she goes straight back down. A couple of times she has asked me to stay in her room while she goes to sleep which I have done but I don't want that to become a habit. Obviously I'd prefer it if she STTN but I'll take this current situation over the long NW!

She does tack sleep on after a bad night and I put her to bed early that night so I guess that is all I can do when she's had a bad night? Maybe as you say I'll make sure she has an 11 hour day max on those days.

I'll keep you posted!! Thanks for your help
xxxx

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Re: Help with 3 year old night wakings
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2015, 21:06:28 pm »
Hi Hun, that sounds like big improvements :) Try not to stress too much about staying with her, sometimes you just need to, to get the most sleep out of a LO, this was a big lesson for me to learn, once an IS they can always go back once back on track. As a rule of thumb with APOP, I learned to try doing it as little as possible to start with, so for eg, leaving the room, then if upset, speak from outside the door, then if needs be, open the door, and move towards what is necessary and needed one stage at a time, then you can be sure you're doing enough but not too much, if that makes sense  ??? I hope things continue to get better Sweetie.

Keep me posted.x.



Offline Laalaalaa

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Re: Help with 3 year old night wakings
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2015, 08:24:17 am »
Well last night wasn't such a great one. She was asleep by 7pm but then up at just before 1am for an hour and again at 5:50am until WU time of 6:45am (we have a gro clock).

My back was really painful so I couldn't pick her up and had to rely on her getting back into bed herself. I then tucked her in and left the room. As expected she protested because she has got used to me staying in the room. The first WU was ok and she didn't cause too much fuss, just took a while to settle. Second time around wasn't quite as much fun! I guess she must have been more awake as it was so close to normal WU? Anyway I could feel myself starting to get cross so I sent my husband in, which prompted tears and tantrums. I don't know why she is so clingy to me at the moment.

After numerous returns to her bed, the sun finally came up on her clock. I think maybe next time I should do some APOP for the 5am wake up. The only problem is that when I have done it before she wakes up after 20-30 min to find me not there and comes back to get me so we end up in the same boat (lots of getting out of bed and no sleep for anyone!)

Early night tonight I think!

One thing I was wondering about was the 11hour day because with the wake up time she had today, that would mean bed at 4:50pm which is way earlier that she would ever normally go. Looking back, she has only ever slept 11-12 hours max even when she was still napping so should I go with a 12-13 hour day?
x

Offline Truly Blessed

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Re: Help with 3 year old night wakings
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2015, 09:49:20 am »
Morning Honey, ugh I feel for you so much, NW are my nemesis, it is so difficult to be at your best and most patient, and I have BTDT many times  ::).

So here's the thing. My feeling is that you need to make a choice between the route of the most sleep, or trying to keep her in her own bed with IS as much as possible.

But first of all can you tell me when and how she dropped the nap  ??? Did she start the usual BT resistance meaning the day was super long, which is what tends to happen. I know you mentioned before whether you should try and get a morning nap out of her.

One thing I was wondering about was the 11hour day because with the wake up time she had today, that would mean bed at 4:50pm which is way earlier that she would ever normally go.

Unfortunately you're right with an EWU it is a big risk to do BT this early, so unless she pulled a super long night there is a good chance it could backfire. If she was younger and this was a different transition I would be more confident, but there is no way of knowing whether this would work right now, it really is a matter of 'suck it and see' :/.


Looking back, she has only ever slept 11-12 hours max even when she was still napping so should I go with a 12-13 hour day?
x

If this is the case I would say she is 'low sleep needs' would you agree that is the true from the start  ???

So I definitely would steer clear of any co-sleeping in your bed, as she now knows that isn't going to happen anymore. However if I'm honest, because I'm so bad with NW and impatient with DS in the daytime when I am OT, I would be climbing in with her at those NW and shushing and comforting her to get her back to sleep. The reason is this. If you can rule out 'discomfort/pain' for those long NW then for sure she is OT. For me, combating the OT with APOP comes first, because when everyone has caught up on some sleep you are then in a better position to ST and put things right. Believe me this is a conclusion it took some time for me to come to, but it worked best in this household. I would hope that if you do that she will go back to sleep much quicker, because she wouldn't be getting upset at your leaving trying to use WI/WO etc. Of course you run the risk of her starting to need you when she first goes down, so I am just speaking from experience and not saying you should go this route if you want to focus on IS the most, it's just that you sound very tired, and like me you feel yourself getting cross, inevitably in the MOTN  ::) so I am thinking of the best way forward for you all, for now.

Forgive me if I told you this already, but during this transition I stayed with DS for several weeks at BT, because another BW advised me with some lovely words. She told me to think of it as a gift, rather than a chore. That one day he will be grown and he will no longer want Mammy to cuddle up with him. It really hit home, so instead of a long drawn out upsetting BT of over an hour, with WI/WO, some shouting if I'm honest  :'( DH also getting wound up of the back of it all, I lay down and cuddled him. He started to fall alseep in 5 to 10 minutes, and started to STTN. Then one night around 9 weeks later I had to answer the phone and when I came back he was asleep. That was the end of it  :o he had caught up and there was no ST required. I will always look back on that with some pride TBH, because previously I was so fixated on IS and not going backwards that I forgot what BW is in it's essence. It isn't just about IS, and teaching your little one to go it alone, it is also about being there for them when they need you most. I also believe that if a LO drops off anxious that they are more likely to wake up again, whereas if they are relaxed they sleep better.

Let me know your thoughts Hun (and those of DP/DH) and here as some big fat ((HUGS)) for you.x.

« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 09:52:08 am by Sammysmammy »



Offline Laalaalaa

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Re: Help with 3 year old night wakings
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2015, 22:21:51 pm »
That all makes lots of sense. I'm heading to bed now to catch up on the zzzzzs so I won't write a long post but I just wanted to thank you for all your support. Her BT was 6:45pm with no trouble so let's see what the rest of the night brings!

Night night x

Offline Truly Blessed

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Re: Help with 3 year old night wakings
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2015, 10:49:30 am »
Good morning Sweetie, I hope the night was better  ??? You are so welcome, here to support you for as long as you need me  :-*

x.



Offline Laalaalaa

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Re: Help with 3 year old night wakings
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2015, 20:41:50 pm »
Hi there,

Last night was better - still two wake ups but I cuddled her and she went back straight away for the first one. The second one was at 6am so I tried and failed to get her back to sleep but considering she was asleep an hour earlier than usual, I guess it was to be expected.

Tonight was horrendous. My DH put her to bed. She was already super tired so I suggested he do a v quick bedtime routine. I have no idea why but he let her watch cartoons on his phone after her bath, which whipped her into a frenzy. She finally fell asleep at 8:10pm (40 minutes after he put her down)

So, we'll see what I'm in for tonight.........

Offline Truly Blessed

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Re: Help with 3 year old night wakings
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2015, 20:44:49 pm »
Last night was better - still two wake ups but I cuddled her and she went back straight away for the first one.

That's great Hun.


The second one was at 6am so I tried and failed to get her back to sleep but considering she was asleep an hour earlier than usual, I guess it was to be expected.

She didn't get that 'tacking on sleep' memo then :( It's very hard at anything like WU time to get LO's to go back over.

I have no idea why but he let her watch cartoons on his phone after her bath, which whipped her into a frenzy.

This is EXACTLY the sort of thing my DH would do what is it with these Daddy's!? I hope tonight isn't too bad.x.



Offline Laalaalaa

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Re: Help with 3 year old night wakings
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2015, 07:36:00 am »
Hi,

I just thought I'd update you. Last weekend was DD's birthday as well as mine. So as a treat, she got to have a sleepover at her best friend's house (the family are very good friends of ours and it meant me and DH could go out for a meal ☺️) She was super excited and was told numerous times before she went that she had to be a good girl and stay in her bed all night.

Well, I don't know what happened but the sleepover 'reset' her! She slept from
7:30-7:30!!

Since then, we've still had NW but she has gone straight back to bed and I haven't had to stay in the room. And then last night she slept from 7:20-6:00!  I am thrilled.

This tells me that you were right - the problem was OT. So we need to really keep an eye on that to make sure we don't get back in that cycle again. I don't want to get all excited about just one full nights sleep but I feel really hopeful we can get back to STTN!

Thanks for all your support xx