5 month old...never napped well

[sparklewings1984]

Yes that is kind of what I'm thinking as he seems to be LSN, he is currently getting by on about 12.5-13 hours total sleep which isn't enough I know, but feel like he can't be missing out on LOADS surely?

He currently is "in bed" for 11.5 hours at night but with his 2 or 3 feeds is only asleep for about 10.5.

His eczema is just starting to improve and for the last 3 nights I've done shh pat at BT and had success so far with that and he only cried for about 2 mins tonight before he calmed down and relaxed into sleep. Once his eczema is gone I'll tackle the naps again as currently he gets too angry and rubs his face raw which isn't helping it heal! He is also really wriggly because of the itchy patches on his body. Just hope it clears up soon!

[katie80]

Sounds like a good plan, hon, and well done for the work at BT. There's really not much more you can do if he's so itchy/scratchy.

[sparklewings1984]

Ok guys, bedtime still going well, managing to put him down very drowsy but stroking his head to rouse him a bit and then he usually turns into his side and then sleeps. Sometimes after I leave the room he has a little moan 5 mins later, which I think is just frustration at not falling asleep quickly, but not had any crying really for about 1 week.

NWs have also improved, now he is going approx 3.5-4 hours between feeds at night, so generally doing a feed at 10-11pm and one more during the night and then sometimes getting an EW at 5am... I'll come back to this later once we get into more of a routine and can decode why.

I'm starting naps back in the cot but he is still quite itchy and it causes him to scratch at his chin and wake himself up whilst settling. I'll battle through though, I think we might be able to do it this time!

[katie80]

Here to support you!

[sparklewings1984]

Ok quick question for now....at the min I'm getting EWs at 5-5.30am which could be due to OT from the day before or could be that his first A time needs extending.... until I get to a place that we can figure that out, would you say I'm best just to properly get up at that time with him or will that encourage the EWs even more?

Example - yesterday he woke at 5.20am and I took him into bed with me  (oops) and I sat with my eyes closed with him. Then around 6am he was hungry and I fed him and he fed to sleep and I kept him in bed with me and slept til 7.50am. So treated it like a night feed still amd eventually he slept. Then our A time was 2.5 hours and he settled for a 30 min nap in his cot VERY easily.

Today, he woke at 5.30am but wasn't due a feed and wasn't crying just chatting so I left him in the cot until he started crying for a feed at 6.20am. I thought to keep him up slightly longer as he had been in his cot for the first 50 mins, tried for a nap at 8.40am and he had a meltdown.

So many variables though, yesterday it worked out he had his solids at 8am and milk (bf) at 9.15am before his nap at 10.20am. Today he had milk at 6.30am, solids at 8am but hardly ate anything and then wanted more milk at naptime. The reason for the change was just because of timings of his NFs of milk, but I definitely think he eats his solids better when he hasn't had milk before. He never refuses milk  (he loves the boob too much), so thinking I'll try to always do solids first and milk later in his A time.

[katie80]

Ok quick question for now....at the min I'm getting EWs at 5-5.30am which could be due to OT from the day before or could be that his first A time needs extending.... until I get to a place that we can figure that out, would you say I'm best just to properly get up at that time with him or will that encourage the EWs even more?

I would try to AP him back to sleep if possible, either by feeding (he's not that far off a feed if he's feeding less than an hr after waking anyway) or rocking or something. No use starting in a hole when you're working on ST. Although, I will admit I've gotten into a feed to sleep prop in the early morning with both my boys, so I should put that disclaimer out there. To me, it was worth it to not have the EWs. My guess is that he's due an A time bump if you're working on 2.5hr and he's 6ish mo old?

Even though he does love milk, most BF babies do, I would hesitate to feed solids before milk at his age (unless medically directed), as milk is still more important nutritionally than any solids you will be able to offer. As they get closer to 10-12mo, that changes, but for the beginning months milk is still number one.

[sparklewings1984]

Hey Katie,

I seem to struggle keeping him awake for longer although I do think he could probably do 2hr 45 - 3hr. He is 6.5 months now. He is happy enough playing by himself early on in his A times, but then starts to get clingy after about 1.5 hours A time, or starts to grumble at everything. At which point if I bf him then he seems happy again. Makes me think he is hungry and that is why he is starting to get grumpy at that point.

I can't see how I'm ever going to get him to nap! I do think the solids first might help to sustain him, he is still only eating max 2 ice cubes twice a day, and then it means he is having his milk later in his A time and then not as hungry before a nap. His daytime feeds are slightly stretching out with the solids, now going 3-3.5 hours instead of 2.5-3 hours.

This baby is so hard to figure out...

[sparklewings1984]

Or is it quite normal that he just wants to be carried around for most of his A time? Lazy little guy! I usually find the first A time of 2.5 hours goes something like:
WU 7am nappy change and eczema creams on
E 7.20am
A 7.40am I have a shower with him in his chair in bathroom then get him dressed and take him downstairs and put into highchair whilst I do some tidying and get breakfast ready
E 8.30am solids
A 8.45am jumperoo, playmat etc until he starts getting grumpy and then I carry him around or put into the carrier and walk around the house with him

[sparklewings1984]

Ok he had a really solid 10.5 hours last night (a 1 hour NW at 3.30am that I ended up feeding him back to sleep) with a WU of 7.05am.

Tried him in his cot at 2hr 50 and he seemed massively UT,rolling around and chatting away. After 20 mins of this he seemed to start chilling out and rolled onto his side and sucking fingers with a bit of crying in between. He just couldn't get himself to sleep though. After 40 mins of trying I got him out of the cot and took him for a walk around upstairs for 10 mins and tried again but he was an absolute mess crying when I tried to put him back in the cot, by this point A time of 3hr 30, was yawning and rubbing eyes and cuddling into me.

After another 30 mins of trying  (4 hours A time) I gave up and cuddled him to sleep and he slept for 1hr 10 mins.

Now next A time he has been fed and changed and then went round to my friend's house and he was getting grouchy and yawning at 1hr 30 mins! I'm guessing he was too OT from this morning and the 1hr 10 min nap didn't restore him enough.

What do you think I should try tomorrow? 3 hour A time or longer like 3hr 15?

[sparklewings1984]

And again. Solid night of 10 hours with no long NWs except at 9pm I had to spend 45 mins resettling him. BT was 7.15pm, feeds at 10.30pm, 2am and 4am (wouldn't resettle easily so fed him back to sleep).

WU 6.35am nappy change and eczema creams
E 7.10am bf
A
E 8.30am solids. Wouldn't eat much, started to get grumpy, carried him around for a bit and at 9am tried a top up bf. He was trying to fall asleep nursing so took him off and sat him up to burp then carried him upstairs and he started to fall asleep on my shoulder...then woke up as I got to the top of the stairs. Walked round with him for a bit and he was yawning and rubbing eyes so tried him in the cot at 9.30am. He then sprung to life again.

Eventually after lots of screaming I have got him to sleep after 4 hours A time again.

In the end had to pick him up a couple of times to settle him as he was really screaming and rubbing at his eczema on his face. Then lay him down whilst still awake and the last time I did it he was whimpering to himself.

I'm so fed up with all the crying, nothing I do seems to soothe him so I end up just standing next to the cot watching him scream. It is making me think about doing controlled crying. Somebody please help and talk me out of this!

[sparklewings1984]

And I got a 30 min  OT nap. Trying to feed him back to sleep now...

[katie80]

Hi hon, sorry it's taken me so long to reply. Lots of (((hugs)))

I don't think you really want to do CC, but I know how frustrating sleep training can sometimes be and that temptation is there (my DS2 is such a screamer and I had a hard time getting him to settle that sometimes I felt like screaming in his face... it's really awful and difficult ). But, even though you feel like you can't do anything to help him, your presence is helping him know you're not abandoning him and will be there with him while he learns how to do this, even if you're just reassuring him with your voice. 

In case you need a little more encouragement not to go down the CC route, have a read through these links...
Re: Research on why 'cry it out' and 'controlled crying' is NOT recommended!
Cry it out (CIO): 10 reasons why it is not for us

If he's used to going down after 2.5hr A, I think jumping right to 3hr might be a little much.  An old and wise mod on here would advise to start with where you are (2.5hr A) for 3 days. If you're still getting short naps or it's taking him a long time to settle, than add 15min.  If things are still the same, add 15min more.  It's ususally a gradual process, rather than a big jump. 

I also think you need to remind yourself to have realistic expectations.  I know he's been doing well with going down drowsy at BT, but what you're describing is very normal for the first few days of sleep training at naps.  There's often a lot of crying and some missed naps.  But, if you stick with it and are very consistent, the crying will get less and the naps will get longer.  I know it's one of the least fun things to do, but it is always worth it in the end. 

More (((hugs))), hang in there... it will get better!

[sparklewings1984]

Thanks Katie.

You're right, I don't want to do CC and I know all the reasons why I don't want to do it. You literally described how I was feeling today, I swore at LO at one point during his screaming

I will persevere on with nap 1 every day. If I get a short nap am I ok to feed him back to sleep for now? Today he ended up sleeping a further 1 hour when I did this, woke up with no tears and was happy for his next A time. I took him out in the pram this afternoon and his second A time was 2hr 55 and he then did a 25 min nap and woke with a startle. He was then awake for 3 hours with an early BT as I didn't want to try and get another catnap in.

[katie80]

I will persevere on with nap 1 every day. If I get a short nap am I ok to feed him back to sleep for now? Today he ended up sleeping a further 1 hour when I did this, woke up with no tears and was happy for his next A time.

Totally your call. I always tried to resettle with PUPD during initial sleep training, as I figured they'd learn quicker that way, but if you'd rather get him the sleep, then you can resettle him however you choose.

[sparklewings1984]

Ok we are on a roll! I'm only getting 20 min naps still though. It could definitely be reflux or itchy eczema related still, or I'm wondering if it is him not wanting to independent sleep? We are now also using domperidone with the omeprazole for his reflux, and his eczema is almost cleared up after 4 weeks of trying different creams. It has been tough for me, he was so unhappy and itchy

Current wind down involves a nappy change, closing the blind in the nursery and then walking around carrying him until he does a couple of yawns and then I sing twinkle twinkle whilst walking to the nursery with him and cuddle him in there. He is usually crying a little bit so I stand holding him and cuddling until he stops and then lay him on his side in the cot whilst still bending over cuddling him. Sometimes he cries again and if he won't settle with me shushing him in the cot for a minute or two I pick him up and cuddle until he stops and then lay him on his side and cuddle him again. We are now down to it only taking about 5 mins for him to settle with on and off crying like this so I'm really pleased with that progress so far!

Any thoughts on the 20 min naps? I tried holding him through the 20 mins a few weeks ago and it didn't work, he still woke up and properly cried, but do you think it would be worth trying again now? I'll post yesterday's EASY when I get 5 mins to write it up.