Overtired - confused

[Sungrl]

Hi there,

My DD is almost 9 weeks old.  I have recently gotten her bedtime between 8 and 8:30pm (she needs to take medication at 8pm at the EARLIEST) and she goes down with no crying at all...just a bit of singing and patting and she's off to sleep.  During the day the past few days, she seems like she is ALWAYS overtired.   I've read and reread the signs of overtiredness in Tracy's book and my DD seems to wake up with these ques.  When she is nursing she is rubbing her eyes and pulling her ears and she's just woken up!

Is it possible for a LO to get overtired and have it carry over into the next day?  Some days it seems like Zoey will be tired before she's really even had any A time...overtired even.  What can I do about this?  Can a baby catch up on sleep?!?!

Our routine varies so much from day to day because she often seems very overtired all day and I just feed her and spend her A time quietly winding her back down for sleep!!!  Some days she only gets 40 minute naps, but lately I do whatever I can to get her to sleep longer.

Today went like this...

E: 5:00am  - she was awake during this feed (not usual) and it took about 30 minutes for her to finally fall asleep

E: 8:00am
A: 8:15 - 8:40 -  she was displaying signs of being overtired already at this point - crying, pulling ears, rubbing eyes
S: 8:45 - 9:25  - most days this nap is the long one (1.5 hours) but today I could only get her to go 40 minutes
A: 9:30 - 10:00 - I put some soft music on and sat her in her chair and after 15-20 minutes she displayed signs of being overtired again
S: 10:00 - 11:00

E: 11:15
A: 11:30-12:30 - again she was very fussy and crying after only 30 minutes of A time (laying on her back with Mommy) - moving her head back and forth, rubbing eyes, crying... so I swaddled her at 12:00.  It took until 12:30 to get her to fall asleep
S: 12:30 - 1:45 (I had to hold her to get her to sleep this long, she woke after 40 minutes)

E: 1:45
A: 2:00 - 3:00 went to run errands, she cried basically the whole time!!
S: 3:15 - 4:00 was again crying a very overtired cry by 3:00pm

E: 4:15
A: 4:30-5:00 - she was very unhappy and still pulling ears and rubbing eyes by 5:00 so I just swaddled her rocked her and tried to get her back to sleep but she cried until 5:45
S: 5:45-6:30

She kept drifting in and out of sleep until around 6:45

E: 7:00
A: 7:15 - 7:45 - just got her in her PJs (usually will do massage but since today she was so fussy I didn't even try) and played some very soothing music while I held her and slowly danced with her.  She was finally happy and content during this time.

8:00pm DH and I gave her her medication and I swaddled her and did out night time wind down.  By 8:15 she was asleep.

I am wondering if she might have an ear infection because she was so fussy and kept pulling on her ears??  Also, she seems to get very upset if we go out to run errands and is fussy the whole evening afterwards, or she will come home and sleepfor 1.5 hours!  I guess she's touchy...

Shannon

[owelley]

Here is a link I found on symptoms of an ear infection.

EAR INFECTIONS

It might be wise to go to the doctor just to be sure.  If there is no sign of infection and she's perfectly healthy, You could try increasing her A times by tiny increments.  MAybe even just 5 min at a time and work on increasing her nap time.  I read somewhere in the book that the amount of time you lo sleeps is the estimated amount of A time afterwards and with 40 min naps, she is tired even less than an hour after waking.  How often is she taking her medication?  I was wondering because maybe you could move the times back by an hour that way she'd have her last dose at 7pm and bedtime soon after.

[samijoe]

sungrl-
i don't think it is an ear infection really.  the pulling at the ear thing happens for many reasons...mostly overtiredness and teething.

i think you need to make your routine more solid.  she does seem to be overtired and yes, overtiredness can be cumulative for some babies.  little Zoey should be able to do 3hr EASY no problems...are you breastfeeding??  maybe your milk supply is low...have you tested??

just some things to think about.

[yaya]

hi sungirl. My DS was always overtired at that age! I felt like his A times were very short and on BW I was told that this was totally normal. It may be agrowth spurt so shes extra tired and yes, they can catch up on sleep. I would get her to nap as much as poss these days to see if that helps and use shh pat to get her back to sleep at 5am (which is a bit too early for a wake up
HTH and let us know how uget on!

[yaya]

     stalking  me? a little bit lol!! Great idea abut giving meds in sleep, that would work to an earlier bedtime. Altho if u really cant, many babies go to bed later and while this is not ideal, it can work for u, need to respect DDs needs.

[Sungrl]

Thanks for the replies ladies!

Zoey won't go to bed any earlier than this... I've tried.   She was staying up until 11pm from birth to about one month, then I got her going down at 10pm...and finally the last week or so it's 8 or 8:30pm.  If I can get her to sleep at 7 or 7:30, she ALWAYS wakes up 30 minutes later wide awake and then she ends up being awake until 10pm so 8:00 - 8:30 is working.

She only takes the medication once and I can't give it to her any earlier because she was supposed to be taking it at 11pm and we've slowly moved it to 8pm.  I'm not sure if this is why she's now wide awake at 5am but I think it could be (it could have an affect on her sleeping).

I have tried giving it to her in a dreamfeed, but she recently started rejecting the bottle (awake or asleep) and so it ends up that she doesn't get the medication at all.  She HATES the taste of it and so I mix it with expressed BM and often give it to her in a syringe, but I couldn't do that in her sleep as it's quite a bit once combined with the EBM and she often chokes on it when she's awake.

I find it very confusing when on one hand I'm told to extend her A time and on the other I'm told that she's overtired and should go to nap at the first sign of sleepiness!  If I keep her up longer she will be crying and really overtired...is that the goal??   
 
Shannon

[Sungrl]

BTW - all days are not like yesterday with the short A times.  Today she's been better - able to go at least one hour before seeming tired.  Just when she seems overtired I though I should be putting her down for naps as soon as she starts looking tired?!?   

[yaya]

I would def NOT increase A times, shes seems to be tired as it is, ur doing great hun, its really tough when ur LO has certain needs or is unwell, in the end u need to find what works for u. My suggestion is get her to take many and is u can, long, restorative naps to catch up on her sleep. KEep working on yr routine till u find what works best. Plenty of babes go to bed at 8ish so if those are her needs, thats fine. I woul work on extending naps to start with!

[Sungrl]

samijoe - I am breastfeeding but I don't think my milk supply is low as I had oversupply for the first month or so of Zoey`s life.  She doesn`t eat a whole lot...maybe 3 oz at a time whether bottle or breast, but I can`t get her to take any more than that.  She normally goes 3 hours between feeds...but some days it`s a bit less and I don`t let her cry if she`s hungry.

Shannon

[binxyboo]

I would think I would do whatever was neccessary to make sure little Zoey was well rested until she matures a bit and biological nap rhythms set in or can be "trained". Shannon, I know you have the Baby Bjorn, but do you have a sling that you could wear her in. They are much easier to take off when she is sleeping and then you could put her down in her bed, with the sling as a swaddle/cover. I think if she gets better rested her sleep might naturally get better, and if it doesn't, she will be better rested and possibly easier to get on more of a routine then.

Any more piccies of that precious little girl to share?

[binxyboo]

I remember you had such a great start with nursing too, it's highly unlikely that you would start having supply issue now. I am sure her feeding is fine too!

[samijoe]

Shannon:
Just thought i would check your supply...as i had not been privy to all those other boards.  It's good to see that the feeding part is going well.

I definitely wouldn't extend A times at this point in time.  Please know she is overtired and it can be corrected.  You will laugh as you see it happening!!  We'll get little Zoey sleep trained in no time!!  You are doing great!!

I started EASY with my lo at 9weeks.  For the first week, whenever she looked tired I put her down for a nap.  For this one week only i made her sleep in her crib for naps (since she was so little i had numerous places for her to sleep throughout the house).  Then, i sat in the corner of the room where she couldn't see me...and i wrote everything down!!!

Boy did it help!  I knew everything about her wants and needs after that week.  I would suggest doing something similar and keeping a diary....

As Stacy suggested Shannon, all of us really can help you better if you stick to one thread.  Ive already repeated a few questions because i did not know they had been answered.  Us BW's will work our magic and try to help you if we can....but we need you to do your part in keeping us informed properly!

Thanks,
Sami

[Sungrl]

Sorry I`m all over the place I just thought that since my post the other day was really about Zoey hating the car and not about sleep issues (although we did discuss them) that I should post here.  My main reason for posting here was to ask if being overtired can carry over a number of days and if I should just try to have her sleeping as much as possible when she seems overtired.  Anyway, we can stick to this thread.  Sorry!

Today Zoey had been much less fussy and quite happy for the most part.  We did give her a bath, which she HATES so that upset her but she recovered pretty well.     I do try and keep a diary...and would love to spend a week observing her, but we always have places we have to go with her...and this seems to throw everything off!  Tomorrow she has a doctor appointment (takes 25 minutes to get there) and then Friday we have to go to DH`s grandmother`s funeral.  Next week she gets her shots...etc.

I`m starting to think that Zoey is a touchy baby, which is odd because she really was a total ANGEL for the first 6 weeks of her life!  Now, she hates the bath (used to enjoy it), cries inconsolably in the car and is either very fussy or totally exhausted after outings (used to be very portable), and gets overtired VERY quickly.  Today she had been up for just over an hour and was happy as could be in her Papasan chair.  I was watching very closely for signs that she was tired, but she was smiling and quite calm and happy, not showing any signs ...and then the phone rang and in about 2 minutes she started to fuss so I was trying to swaddle her and stuff while on the phone (it was regarding my mortgage renewal so I had to take it) and she had a total meltdown within a couple of minutes.  It then took forever to calm her down and get her to sleep!!  Is it possible that she is now a touchy baby or is all of this perhaps just from being overtired?  The changes did seem to start when the 40 minute naps started...

So today has been like this so far...

S: Zoey went down last night at about 8:15pm. 
E: I was able to get her to dreamfeed at 10:30pm from one breast (she would not take the other side, was too sleepy).  She then woke at 2:30am and I fed her and she was right back to sleep.
E: Then Zoey woke at 5:30am and was wide awake.  I fed her and did the shh pat thing but she was not falling asleep!!
A: I changed her diaper and let her lay unswaddled on her change table (smiling and cooing away) for about 10 minutes until I tried again. 
S: By the time she was sleeping it was 7:00am!!!  This is not normal for her.  Usually she would wake around 5am and feed and go right back to sleep, but the past 2 nights she has been quite alert (today worse than yesterday).
S: She slept from 7:00am until 8:40am.

E: 8:45am
A: 9-10am
S: 10:10 - 10:50 - I tried to get her back to sleep but she would not go. 

A: 11:15 (by the time I gave up trying to get her back to bed) - 11:45
E: 11:45
A: 12-12:20
S: 12:30-1:15 She was crying when she woke up so I picked her up and did the shhh pat until she fell asleep again but when I tried to lay her down she woke and would not go back to sleep.  She started fussing so I finally decided to feed her a bit early.

E: 1:45
A: 2:00-2:30 (this is when the phone rang and the meltdown happened)
S: 3:00 (by the time I got her calmed down and alseep without waking back up) - 3:45 she has just woken and I am going to try to get her back down...

Thanks again everyone, I sure appreciate the advice.

Here`s a really cute one of her!!
Shannon

[owelley]

I'm really sorry.  I wasn't clear on my reply.  I meant to say extend her nap times first before trying to increase A times!!  It would be awful to try to increase now with short naps!!   

[albertasweetpea]

Hey Shannon - LOVE that picture of my sweet, darling niece!!  I think she looks just like ME!! 

Just wanted to mention that when Molly was little (first month or 6 weeks) she did sleep alot too, that's what babies do right?? Then we hit about 8 weeks and she started the short naps, not being able to sleep anywhere, being fussy, etc...etc... and I found BW. I read all the different types of babies and was sure, 100% completely sure that I had a Touchy baby. After a few weeks of blood, sweat and tears (OK, no blood but you catch my drift) we finally got the sleep training mastered and lo and behold, I had an Angel baby!!! 

You have heard us talk about her now, how easily she goes to sleep and sleeps a minimum of 12 hours a night. Definitely not a Touchy baby!!  Not that it would be a bad thing to have a Touchy baby, you just have to do things differently that's all!  Guess what I'm saying is just that I agree with Binxyboo who said that once she matures a bit and her sleep rhythms settle down, you will better be able to gauge into which category she falls.

Hang in there, you are doing a super job and we all know that Zoey is just a darling baby and has an awesome Mommy!!