Low sleep needs or wrong routine?

[TB9]

I'm back!

So if you want to do this gradually I would start with trying to get first nap of the day in his cot. 

Make sure his second bf of that A time ends 30min before he is due for nap (you may eventually have to move it to end 45min before S, but you can do it gradually)

Do normal wind down, put him in crib, use shh/pat (or whatever works for him) if he gets upset.  If he isnt upset, dont do anything, just leave him be.  If he is too upset that even shhh/pat doesnt calm him then pick him up to calm him.  With dd2 it worked well if I put her up on my shoulder and did shhh/pat until she was calm.  The key here is you dont want to be using shhh/pat to help him sleep, you just want to be using it to calm him so he can put himself to sleep.  Also, the more you can calm him in the crib, the better.  I always saved picking up for when she was really upset and i couldnt calm her in the crib.  In the beginning I did feel like I was letting dd2 cry it out, but the important difference here is that while he may be crying you are there with him the whole time, he isnt alone crying and you are doing what you can to calm him

Keep an ear out for his mantra cry and dont bother him while he is mantra crying.  It means he is trying to soothe himself to sleep.  I would often stay in the room, or stand just outside the door in case the mantra cry escalated and dd2 needed me.  But I would stop shhhh, and at most just have my hand on her.

How do you feel about trying to extend naps?  At 5.5 months I didnt really try to bother (for my sanity) but if you want to try to extend if he wakes at the 30min mark, you could do exactly what you did to calm him for naptime.

For the rest of the day, do carseat naps as you normally would if you want.  BUT make sure the rest of his Es are finished 30min before sleep times.

What do you think?

I should add that at this age I found naps very hit and miss, regardless of A times being perfect and LO falling asleep independently.  Please do not be discouraged if sleep doesnt sort out immediately, the best thing you can do for your little guy right now is work towards independent sleep, but not stress if naps are short or broken or otherwise imperfect.  I found with both girls at this age that things were a little out of sorts until they were established on solids, THEN naps improved.  Not that I would start early on solids to solve naps (because starting on solids introduces a whole new host of issues!) but it is something to be aware of, and realize that at this age it is normal for naps to be not that great 

If I missed anything hopefully the other ladies can chime in their thoughts!

[BusterB]

I will be back hopefully when dd2 is napping to help you come up with a plan hun 

Thanks so much! x

I would also love some advice about what to do for BT tonight if possible.... today has looked like this so far:

Wake Up & Eat @ 6am
A
S - 8:53 to 9:20
+ extension
S 10:12 to 11

E 11 (tiny feed)
A
E 1:15
S 3 - 4:15 (tried for 1 hour to settle him in cot, gave up and put him in carseat, but was a very fractious nap and he was crying when I got him up)

E 4:25 (he asked me for a feed)

He is now incredibly fussy and grumpy and keep rubbing his eyes... I notice he has very red cheeks and a red bottom too... so possibly a bit of teething adding to the grumpiness.... he wont let me put him down! 

[LovelyLilyandJack]

I don't know if I'm too late or if this is even very good advice but it sounds like that second nap was OT so I'd probably go for a 6.30 - 6.45 bedtime, depending on whether you think he'll fight it or go straight to sleep. But I've never been very good at that last A time

[BusterB]

Tinkerbell99 I just saw your long post! I didn't see it before sending my last message asking about bedtime!

Thank you sooo much for taking the time to write all that out for me, have just given it a good read. However, my issue isn't really getting him to sleep independently - especially for his first nap of the day. To be honest as long as the A time is about right, he goes off with minimal fussing for that one, in just a few minutes (took 3 mins this morning). I can't actually remember the last time I needed to intervene at all 

My issue is more about how to work around such a short nap as I can't resettle him. I spent the first 6 weeks or so of our cot nap journey not bothering for my sanity - as you mentioned in your post and then when I decided to try and tackle it, I spent hours using sssh/pat variations and PU/PD, staying in the room for ages etc - all to no avail. I am happy to keep trying in the hope that one day he'll surprise me, but i'm really confused about how that will affect the routine, if indeed my LO is LSN?

I think what I need is an outline of an EASY, for when he only takes a 30 min 1st nap - where should the feeding be and where should the following nap/s be and for how long? I presume this routine would require a CN? Or as a LSN could he handle a long A after a good lunchtime nap in the carseat?

I especially need some guidance for where bedtime should come following last nap, as we seem to be coming unstuck there a bit at the moment and it's affecting our nights. As I know he only sleeps for 9.5 or 10 hours a night I am understandably keen not to make it too early - unless people are really positive it is going to lengthen his sleep - everything i've seen of him so far suggests otherwise, but you are all way more knowledgable than me on this stuff 

Is the other option a CN and a later BT, to ensure he gets enough sleep and enough A?

So would it look like this;

w/u 6:30am (being optimtistic here as I think 5:45am EWU are about to return!)

E 6:30
A 2hr 45 or 3hr? Or even longer to try and get a better nap?
E are you suggesting that I do a sml feed here 30/45 mins before the S?
S 9:15 or 9:30 for 30 mins

E 10
A when we were on 2hr30 he could easily do a full A even after a short nap - so do I try for 2hr 45/3 again?
E another sml feed at 12ish?
S 12:45 or 1 in carseat for 1.5/2hr?

E 2:30/3
A 4 hours? or CN

Bath ?
BF ?
BT ?

If you could edit this where necessary and help me fill in some of the blanks here I would be very grateful indeed!

LovelyLilyandJack - thanks very much for the bedtime advice, I was totally loss as to whether he needed a really long A or not. But 6:45 is our normal time, so I aimed for that and he was snoring by 6:50. He fell asleep feeding but I did my best to stir him by winding him before going into the cot and he did a big yawn and reached for his lovey, before starting to snore, so I think it worked He did the same last night though and then woke up and cried for almost 2 hours, so i'm not going to hold my breath just yet!

[TB9]

However, my issue isn't really getting him to sleep independently - especially for his first nap of the day. To be honest as long as the A time is about right, he goes off with minimal fussing for that one

So this is telling me that A time probably *is* right, but he is unable to put himself back to sleep because of that second feed being too close to S.  Being completely honest, I think you have a big prop issue right now and he actually isnt sleeping independently, which is why part of the plan includes moving the Es

[BusterB]

So this is telling me that A time probably *is* right, but he is unable to put himself back to sleep because of that second feed being too close to S.  Being completely honest, I think you have a big prop issue right now and he actually isnt sleeping independently, which is why part of the plan includes moving the Es

But the feed being close the nap has only happened for the last week or 10 days.... for the 3 or 4 months prior to that he was being fed first thing and then napping between 1.5 or 2.5 hours (depending on his age) later with no additional feed.... and I was having exactly this issue, every single day, so unfortunately I don't think the feed is a prop either... there is something else happening here 

[TB9]

If he went from sleeping 1.5-2.5hrs for naps, then went down to short 30min naps then I would say it is probably routine related.  But regardless of what was happening in the past, right now I would say there is a prop issue, and you wont be able to figure out if he is waking ut or ot from naps until you remove the props, yk?

[TB9]

Just a thought, your low supply could have been causing short naps in the past, it may not have been ut or ot at all.  This parenting thing is so complicated isnt it 

[BusterB]

Just a thought, your low supply could have been causing short naps in the past, it may not have been ut or ot at all.  This parenting thing is so complicated isnt it 

Complicated doesn't even cover it Tinks - I am so confused by it all!

Believe it or not I had over supply until after we had been on 4 hr EASY for a couple of weeks, so in the past there was definitely no issue there! I think my LO was so upset by the sudden drop in supply as he had previously been so inundated and had gotten used to it

But I 100% agree that feeding could be a prop now, so on your advice I have stopped feeding him so close to sleep time already and will stick with that going forward, thanks again for all your input, i am very grateful.

ETA: have not heard a peep out of him since bedtime, so he was definitely tired enough at bedtime tonight & has obviously been very UT since the car seat napping was introduced  This is exactly how our routine used to be - nightmare naps and grumpy baby all day, followed by easy bedtime and early waking.... I will be going to bed early tonight in preparation for my 5:45am wake up 

[BusterB]

Ladies.. i could  you!

He slept through 7pm-4am!!!!   

I heard him cooing to himself at 4am and feared that his early wake up was going to be REALLY early... but picked him up and fed him and he was back asleep after 30 mins. He then slept until 6:15am!! Total of 10hr 45m

He only napped for total 2hr 30 yesterday, with an A of 4 hours inbetween - so it looks like causing a bit of OT yesterday seems to have really helped his night? I have been so desperately trying to avoid OT it seems I may have been causing more issues by pushing into UT all the time?

Does this definitely suggest he is LSN? Do they cope better with OTness?

I looked back through my log to the last time he had a fairly good night and it was another 2hr30 of naps day.... he had more NWs that time, but then he was a slightly younger baby

First nap today though - put him down at 3hrs awake, asleep in 5 mins but awake at 28mins..... any thoughts on that?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yay!  Glad you had a good night!  I don't know if it's a lsn thing but jack copes well with OT generally, in that he usually gets over it quite quickly as long as he gets a shorter A somewhere. He also does better on less day sleep (to a point,  obviously!). It's hard to sayIif your LO is lsn yet... I only figured it out with Jack cos his A times were so high and I started to notice that longer naps gave worse nights.  It may be that your LO is slightly lsn, or very,  or not at all!  I'll check in a minute what jack was doing at 5 / 6 months to see if that helps though as a comparison.

Wrt your short morning nap, is he generally happy or a bit clingy / sensitive / touchy after it? We have had UT 30 minute naps for sure so it's hard to say - I could only tell by how very happy he was afterwards. Though I agree - 30 minutes is usually OT.

[BusterB]

He has been very clingy and grizzly today actually, I've hardly been able to put him down!

Second nap was a bit of a disaster - we had to go out for a bit and he fell asleep in the car at 2hr30m A and woke up just under 30 mins later at home, rather upset! Was totally unable to resettle him as was UT I presume and he has been really whiny & clingy the last hour and a half or so - although having said that he seems to have turned a corner in the last few mins (after something to eat!) and is now playing happily and giving me huge smiles   

So he's had less than an hour of naps today and is very tired but definitely not sleepy at the moment - so i'm a bit stumped as to how to play it. I guess I wait for next sleepy window (could be as late as 4:15) and grab whatever I can in the way of a nap? This might mean a later BT though I presume, to get enough A time?

What would you do?

[BusterB]

Got him to sleep at just gone 4pm - but now i've no idea if I just let him sleep or whether, if he sleeps more than 30? or 45?mins I should wake him?!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

I think I'd let him have 30 minutes and do BT at 7 but I bow to tink and laylas experience on that if they're about. 

I just checked what jack was doing at 5-6 months and basically we were getting a lot of UT 34-38 minute naps and our best naps on around 2hrs 30 A time.  He was rapidly upping his A times though and was on 3 hrs by 6 months and 4hrs by 7 months 

I don't want to offer conflicting advice from tink so will see what she thinks about A times but I do remember I had to reduce A's at this age to get over an ot build up and then rapidly increase them to get through the 3-2. It may be that just increasing them would have done the same job though

[BusterB]

I just checked what jack was doing at 5-6 months and basically we were getting a lot of UT 34-38 minute naps and our best naps on around 2hrs 30 A time.  He was rapidly upping his A times though and was on 3 hrs by 6 months and 4hrs by 7 months 

This is very interesting, gives me something to go on and I definitely think we will be at 4 hours by 7 months... After saying he was grumpy etc earlier the last 90 mins of his last A he was a total delight, really smiley and interactive. Still didn't want to be put down, but I think he's teething.

I did wake him up after about 30 mins and now will aim for a 7pm BT as I instinctively that's what i'd have done I think... he is a tired grump right now and did not like being woken, but if it helps him sleep well tonight it is obviously totally worth it