16wk old boy - easy with 40 min nap

[butterfly_x]

Hi. I need help implementing a good routine for my 16wk old boy.  He doesn't take longer than a 40 min nap, he doesnt feed very well either (started with being distracted and now I think its a supply issue - perhaps due to preferring bottle and having formula later)

This was todays schedule. . 6am awake - I try hold him off till 7.30am to feed.
7.30am breastfeed
9am nap
10am Breastfeed
11.30am nap
1pm feed
3pm nap
4pm feed - followed by 3oz expressed as a topup.
6.30 bath with 3yo sister
7pm feed and bed (he is often too sleepy and grumpy by then)

I cant get him to nap long and I feel lost with nap scheduling. I also notice his poos have been on and off green in colour

I am thinking of doing a routine more like this..

Wake up 6am - smallest feed possible or even dummy to pass him off till 7.30
7.30 feed change and up
Nap 9am - 9.45
Awake 9.45 till 11.15
Nap 11.15 till 12
Awake 12 till 1.30
Nap 1.30 till 2.15
Awake 2.15 till 3.45
Nap 3.45 till 4.30
Awake 4.30 till 6pm (feed + 3oz expressed)
6.15 bed bath and formula instead of breast (6oz in bottle and see what he takes)

What do you think?

[Sarah - Enfys' Mum]

At 16 weeks, he's probably starting to get ready to move to a 4 hr routine. If his naps are 45 minutes, he probably needs a bit more a time. I'd start with 10-15 minutes more, very low key, and see how you get on.  I'd start with the first a of the day, and if you get a better nap, then you can increase the other a times as well.
What do you think?

[creations]

Hi Welcome to BW
Just wondering about the feeding. Did you want to reduce BFing and introduce formula or is it because you think you have a supply problem?  There is a big growth spurt at 4 months so if you exclusively BF it may seem LO is not satisfied because he needs more feeds to up your supply.  At the same time babies this age can now start to feed more efficiently, so taking less time for a feed, and this might have you thinking he is not feeding for long enough and not getting enough.  Any of this sound familiar?

Has he ever taken a longer nap than 40 mins? It may be that he needs help learning to continue to sleep (transition from one sleep cycle to another) to get a longer nap.

There's a sample routine here for the 3.5 and 4hr EASY which you can adapt to suit your LO's WU time
Time to Transition - 3hr, 3.5hr or 4hr EASY

[butterfly_x]

Thank you both for your replies.

Creations - I don't really want to give him formula however sometimes its easier if I quickly breastfeed him and then get my husband to top him off with bit of formula to get him through. My husband prefers I give him a topup at 7pm feed as he believes he would sleep longer but I know this isnt always the case.

I did believe I had a supply issue starting however I now know differently (nnot feeling engorged or needing pads is normal right?) Everything you said does sound very familar.

Sarah - I don't think my boy would go 4 hours.  He seems to want to feed every 2 hours this week. I would give him more A time but he gets overtired and just cries when put down. Today has been much better and he is dead on 16 weeks today. I did think he couldnt transition however today he took an hour plus nap!

This is how today has gone so far. ..




E 7.15- 7.45
A 7.45 - 8.15
SY 8.15 -  10.00
   
E   10.00 -   10.30
A    10.00 - 11.15
SY   11.15- 11.50

E    12- 12.30   
A    12 - 1.15                               
SY  1.15  -

As you can see so far he has started to nap better. He has never been like this. Only difference is I have swaddled him.

[Sarah - Enfys' Mum]

Swaddling works wonders .
Sorry, I should explain better - not all bf babies can manage four hours between feeds ( mine doesn't at five months) but you can have a 3.5-4 hour nap routine and fit the feeds in around.

[creations]

Great the swaddle helped! 1hr 45 nap is excellent

I'm actually not great help with bf but if you need help with increasing supply or any questions you could post on the BF board or I can ask someone to pop in here for you? I have nothing against formula (mine was formula fed from 4wks when I had to stop bf) but think it a shame to put your bfing at risk by topping up with formula if that's not what you really want.

Agree with regards to naps moving even if the feeds can't go longer. Mine had to be fed every 3hrs until 6 months but the A times all continued to increase.

What time did he wake in the morning? Was it at 7.15, same time as when you fed?  Seems like a super short A time but some times GS can make them extra tired and the nap was good.

[butterfly_x]

Hi Sarah.
Thank you. When you say 4 hour nap routine do you mean he has a nap every 4 hours? I read on here for his age it is supposed to be 1.5hrs between? He did well on this too. Could you write up a sample off what you mean? Sorry I am new to EASY and dont find it as 'easy' 

Creations - he is def. On a growth spurt. He wanted to feed loads before bed! Its been a while since I cluster fed. Ive learned alot off this board in one day! I now know his hunger cry which helps me greatly. I think I might drop the formula top up (2oz at 4.45pm before catnap) and he wanted breast at 5.45 so fed early - bathed then fed again at 7pm both breast and 2oz formula. I just like the idea of him being a little fuller. 

As for the A extending... he did really well on 1.5hr today so should I be upping it and may cause him overtiredness? He woke at 6am but he was on and off awake all night.  The best night sleep hr has was after his cranial osteopathy session on thursday (he slept 7-1 & 1-6) he loves a 6am start but I don't! !!!

This is today's schedule. ..
E 7.15- 7.45
A 7.45 - 8.15
SY 8.15 -  10.00
   
E   10.00 -   10.30
A    10.00 - 11.15
SY   11.15- 11.50

E    12- 12.30   
A    12 - 1.15                               
SY  1.15  -  3

E      3- 3.30
A      3- 5
E      4.45
S.     5 (catnap)   

E - 5.45/ 6pm cluster fed         

A- 6.15 bath
E/S- 7pm feed bed ( &  top up)

[creations]

The 4 hr EASY (Tracy called it the 4/4) really means to feed every 4 hrs with naps between, however if LO can't go 4hrs between feeds we still call it a 4hr EASY because the A times increase. No it is not 4hrs awake time.  More like 2hr. If you are at 1.5 hr you would increase in steps, here's a link with sample times
Time to Transition - 3hr, 3.5hr or 4hr EASY
Don't know if you've seen this page, Tracy did say EASY can be hard!
When EASY seems hard
and just in case you haven't got enough to read there are heaps of useful links here
Starting EASY - all you need to know and more!

What time did LO wake up this morning? Was it 7.15am?

[Sarah - Enfys' Mum]

Creations says it much better than me .

[butterfly_x]

Thanks for the links and explanation.  Very usual.

Well he woke up LOADS last night
Not for hunger,  for the dummy. He cant sleep without the thing! He woke up at 4am for a feed last night. He went to bed at 7pm, I unfortunately disturbed him at 9.30 and he wouldn't settle until fed. Sigh#

Today he woke up at 7.15! He had a nap at 8.30 till 10.15 and fed him at 10.30am. We are doing activity now till 12.

[butterfly_x]

Il look at extending A today.

I now have another issue Imerging.  Think he might have silent reflux. When I disturbed him at 9 last night he was flinching and crying hard. Dummy wouldn't work which is wgy I ended up feeding. He seems to bring a bit if milk up after feeds (not immediately but shortly after) I also sometimes hear him gulp loudly when feeding like when you have a fast let down. He was doing an unusual cough earlier this morning too. This ones gonna keep me on my toes!!!

[butterfly_x]

Todays naps haven't gone too well...
4am Feed

E       7-7.30
A       7- 8.30
S/Y   8.30 - 10.15
                                                               
E       10.30- 10.55
A       10.30- 12
S/Y   12.- 1.30

E       1.30-  2
A.      1.30- 3.00
S/Y    3.00-  4.00

E        4.15- 4.45   
A        4.15-  5.15
S/Y    refused nap. 

[Sarah - Enfys' Mum]

That fourth nap is always hard. I always did apop for that one. I'd give it 20 minutes, and if she hadn't fallen asleep, I'd get her up, and do early bedtime.  And if I tried even five minutes early....  No way!
If you think he has reflux you need to get that sorted before you can work on his sleep. Xx.

[butterfly_x]

My husband isn't convinced its reflux as he doesn't cry for long. I dunno if its that either but the arching back and flinching had me puzzled.

Sorry what did you mean by apop?
He is 100% growth spurting. Had a few fussy feeds before bed and then he crashed.

[Sarah - Enfys' Mum]

Apop= accidental parenting, on purpose. It means "get him to sleep by any means necessary" eg swing, carrier, car, pram, rocking. 

It probably still wouldn't hurt to have gin checked out. (I have no experience with reflux at all, just saying.)

[creations]

Todays naps haven't gone too well...

I think it felt worse than it looks (always feel terrible when there's been a refusal because the crying and holding get to be such hard work)
1hr 45 nap, 1hr 30 nap these are great!
1hr nap, not that bad
nap refusal will be because it was such a short A time.

If you'd done that 3pm nap a bit later giving a 1hr 45 A the nap might have gone longer.

BTW I just discovered some of the timings seems to have a typo in that 3.5hr EASY I linked you to. The point though is to focus on E every 3.5hr and fit naps between. It's ok to have some A before E if the naps are shorter.

I would keep an eye on that possible reflux.  Back arching can sometimes mean they want putting down so they can sleep (esp independent sleepers) but a combination of symptoms needs to be checked out.

[butterfly_x]

Oh I see. Thanks sarah.
Yeah I did apop as I put him in bouncer and used vibration mode to see if he went to sleep but he wasnt having it. I ended up just pushing him through to 7.

Thanka for your help.  Its really appreciated. 

[butterfly_x]

Thanks creation.
I will do a 3.5hr tomorrow and see how we go. Il post it up for you to take a look at. I have my MIL here tomorrow so it probably will go up the wall (we wont get into that but if you have one you will know what I mean, 😀)

I hope he takes well to the 3.5hr on a potential growth spurt.  We had cluster feeds tonight and He awoke again at 10 and wouldnt settle so gave him an unexpected quick feed. I dunno if im falling into a trap doing that but heyho. Whatever works eh!

I think doing a 3.5hr easy will end up easae

[butterfly_x]

Just another quick qu...
If I do a 3.5hr feeding schedule do I want to start extending the morning nap start time by 15 mins as per the transition?  Or should I just do 3.5hr feeds with 1.5 A time? Sorry for all the qus.

..........................

So far today (Tuesday)
2   4    6     AM FEEDS

E        6
A        - 7 45                 
SY      8 -  9.30
                                   
E        9.30
A        - 11.15
SY      11.15 -  12.45
             
E        1.00   (wanted feeding at 12.45)
A       12.45   - 2.15 

[butterfly_x]

Follow up on boys latest antics.
2   4    6     AM
Tuesday     
E        6       
A        - 7 45                 
SY      8 -  9.30
                                   
E        9.30
A        - 11.15
SY      11.15 -  12.45
             
E        1.00   (wanted feeding at 12.45)
A       12.45   - 2.15   
SY     2.15 -     3.30             
                     
E         4.30  / 5 (2oz TU)
A         3.30- 5.15
SY       5.15 - 6.15 (didn't fall asleep till 6pm)   

A.       6.20   bath
E.       7         breast & book
S        7.15-30    took ages to settle

E 10.30     then woke up every 20/30

So.. he didnt do well at the 5pm catnap. I struggled to get him to settle him till 5.50/6pm so he slept for all of 10 mins. I have him a bath which he cried through mostly. Then when fed at 7pm and put down he took 30 mins to settle and finally fell asleep.  He has aince woke up and I fed him at 10.30. Had to resettle 6/7 times since then.

So do I need to sack off the catnap if he doesnt go down by 5.30 say and just do an earlier bedtime?  Maybe miss bath and just feed n put to bed?
I feel like we've def hit the 4 month sleep regression even though I technically only had him sleep through the two nights before. Im gutted. He was napping well and slept lovely all swaddled up and now this. Talk about bad luck. Sigh#

How long does this bloody spurt go on for? Im on day 2 and already going mad. 

[creations]

So do I need to sack off the catnap if he doesnt go down by 5.30 say and just do an earlier bedtime?  Maybe miss bath and just feed n put to bed?

Sounds like a great plan. You might also start the WD for CN maybe 10 min sooner if he is ok with that, it gives you a bit of time to get him settled to sleep and he won't be too tired for it (OT towards the later part of the day could make him harder to get down perhaps), although I know some LOs scream blue murder if you approach the bed room too soon so it depends on his character too. But yeah, if he woke at 3.30pm and you ditched the CN from him not settling I'd get on with BT immediately, say S by 6pm if you can, I know it's hard to fit in though, he'll need taking out of the room so he knows nap is over then start BT WD.

I know that day must have felt rough because you were working so hard to get that CN and then had so much disturbance in the night, but like I said before the other naps and most of the day look GREAT! Honestly you are doing a great job and getting good naps there.

A GS would usually last a few days. The 'regression' or transition to 4hr EASY can take a while. Their sleep is changing at this age and we see a lot of 4 month olds having disturbed sleep. you should be out of it by 6 months if not before.

(sorry for delayed reply I lost my internet connection)

[butterfly_x]

Thank you so much for your support creations