Author Topic: Overexcited 28mo! UT or OT? (Read 3036 times)

labrodyk · « **on:** February 23, 2015, 09:29:02 am »

Hi lovely ladies!

My low sleep needs 28mo DS is pulling my hair out at nap and bedtime today. Both times he has been ridiculously overexcited, running around like a crazy person, squealing, throwing things, laughing uncontrollably, refusing to put on pyjamas and refusing to listen or do as he's told.

Today's nap took him 30mins to fall asleep and he's done the same at night but hopped out after 30mins because he heard me outside his room and asked to do a wee (he didn't do anything).

Our day looks like this;

A: 6-6.30 or earlier and can lay quietly for AGES so it could be any time really. GroClock set for 7am but has recently been getting up before the sun to ask for the toilet but doesn't always go. Will go back to bed until sun comes up.

Nap: 1pm for as long as he will sleep but no later than 2.30. Usually only sleeps 1hr 10/15min
BT: 7.30 and usually asleep by just after 8pm

I can't quite work it out! He's a very active kid but the over-excitement is pretty full on and my gut is saying he's OT particularly from waking quite early but nothing I do (capping the time in bed during the day at 1hr Max helped and I thought it made things worse).
He has a pretty good wind down but I just can't get him calm lately.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

Many thanks!
Laura

jessmum46 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 23, 2015, 13:50:37 pm »

Hi hun, I see things haven't changed much from where you were up to on your previous thread. I still think this is related to the nap being on the way out, I think I said to you before my DD was totally done napping by 28/29 months so if he is LSN I think more than likely the nap is your enemy right now. If he hates capping would he manage alternate/1 in 3 no nap days? Might make him more tired for the other days? Or would he take a nap earlier in the day (in the car? Stroller?) and cap it to 45 mins, then a long A to bedtime? He should be easier to wake if the nap is earlier on. What do you think?

Buttonbobs · « **Reply #2 on:** February 23, 2015, 19:51:41 pm »

Hiya lovely, I have to say I agree with Katherine hun, I think we're back where we were a little while ago. My DD had also given up her nap completely at around 28/30 months. I do feel that your DS has possibly been UT for quite some time, resulting in those earlier and earlier WUs. Yes he may be OT now but the way out of that is to reduce that nap.

My DD didn't cope with nap capping so we kept the nap long and for as long as we and she could cope with let her nap when she wanted to, but not otherwise. This did mean we had to accept the reduction in her night sleep. There did come a time where the shortness of the nights was leading to more OT than was acceptable to her, and I needed my evenings back. So we cut the nap on more days.

You mention that when you've tried NNDs before your DS has become unbearable. How many days have you tried this consistently? I think with DD it was definitely harder for her at the beginning, when she was used to taking the nap, I had to really work to get her through to early BT without too many tantrums. But after a while (a week to two weeks) she had got used to there not being a nap and the nights just lengthened.

It is some months now since you first started getting earlier wakings again, so I think it may be time to try something a little more drastic, like cutting the nap (and if not every day it would be worth trying every other day or more often to have NNDs if you can manage).

I know this timeframe and the 1-0 is so hard, and OT is unavoidable, but I do feel that when things have got to a point where you're not happy nd he's not happy changing something is worth a try.

((Hugs))

labrodyk · « **Reply #3 on:** February 23, 2015, 21:01:21 pm »

Oh ladies thank you for replying so quickly. NND and 1-0 has been going through my head for MONTHS and only lately have we had more of them.

Our problem is that come as early as 2pm he's begging to go to sleep and the more I push him the more exhausted and upset he becomes. Last NND; he couldn't walk, talk, put food to his mouth and was as white as a sheet and purely exhausted. He cried from 3pm in my arms until I put him to bed at 6.30 after no dinner and he was asleep before I left the room (and consequently woke and cried about 6 times through the night as per other NND or crappy sleeps). So I just have this gut feeling that we're not quite at the nap drop stage although from your responses I could be wrong...

I might try pulling the nap back just 10-15mins and have him in bed at 12.45/50 and let him sleep. I always set his gro clock to 2pm (1-2) and he's sleeping barely an hour on his own. I tried the pram but he wouldn't. The car we can do but only when hubby is home as I don't drive.

The early waking isn't TOO bad but it does make him a little crazy. Today he cried out at 6.20 and he came running in to me at 7am.

I guess I just don't know what the lesser of the 2 evils is. I'm 7 weeks pregnant too so I can't be consoling an OT toddler on NND at the moment as I'm mostly sitting in the bathroom!!

Thank you for the support.
xx

labrodyk · « **Reply #4 on:** February 24, 2015, 09:35:39 am »

Would you be concerned about the time to fall asleep at night considering he doesn't tack on?

I did put H down earlier today about 12.45 and he fell asleep at 1pm and woke at 2.30 when I poked my head in his room. He just gets so excitable after a bath and he goes goes goes, I can't get him to calm down. He was in bed at 7.30 but I checked on him at 8.05 and he was sitting up in bed. He hadn't said a word so I just kissed him and retucked him and said goodnight. Was asleep when I checked again at 8.30.
Is this something I need to fix so he gets more overall sleep or not much of a concern if he's happy enough?

This morning he called out at 6.20 but stayed in bed until 7 waiting for his gro clock sun so I guess that's better than usual.

jessmum46 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 24, 2015, 09:57:39 am »

I'm guessing the long nap meant he was UT at bedtime. But 1.5h nap and 10h night isn't too bad. Any shorter night though you will be in the OT zone that Naomi mentioned above. Really I think your only options here are NNDs or capping.

Buttonbobs · « **Reply #6 on:** February 24, 2015, 12:49:33 pm »

I agree that 11.5 hours overall isn't bad. That's about what E was getting before we dropped the nap, she ended up sleeping more overall once we went to NNDs.

You mention that bath get's him excited, any chance you could do baths earlier in the day so he can have a real play. It's an activity that can be really good relaxing wind down for some LOs, but not others. Or if that's not practical, have you tried adding some lavendat bubbles to the bath?

labrodyk · « **Reply #7 on:** February 24, 2015, 21:29:33 pm »

When I was capping the nap to 40-60mins (1-2 in bed) the nights didn't extend at all so it does make me wonder why I was doing that as his mood was clearly affected and he was getting LESS sleep overall.

Bath time - it's hubby's only time with him so I'd like to keep it where it is but some lavender or sleepy bath stuff would be a good idea! Thank you, I'll get some!

With the bad weather here recently, we haven't been having our big play/run around outside after dinner and I wonder if that hasn't helped! He used to have almost an hour of running and carrying on in the garden then bath, milk, books, teeth and bed. Might try and do that today if weather holds out and see what happens.

Thank you!

labrodyk · « **Reply #8 on:** February 25, 2015, 10:03:18 am »

Ok ladies, I conceede defeat!! You've been right all along and NND have to be in order. How the HELL do I start this 1-0? H always appears so tired and I second guess myself and put him down.

I thought I'd try an earlier nap today at 12.40 but spent 40mins getting him to stay in bed then asleep 1.30 but woke him at 2.30. Took another 45mins of taking him back to bed from 7.30 and not asleep until 8.30!

Do I offer rest time? Movies? How early is bedtime? I'm so in the dark

Buttonbobs · « **Reply #9 on:** February 25, 2015, 22:00:18 pm »

Oh bless you - no defeat concessions needed!!

This is not a battle honey, although I'll agree it often feels like it

I do think trying a NND or two is a good idea. I personally couldn't work out how quiet time would work for us as DD was either asleep or wanting to be with me, and it was far easier to stop her from dozing off at an inconvenient time if we were busy.

As all LOs are different, they all approach the 1-0 differently, but you might want to have a look at the nap dropping support thread and see if anything there sounds like it would suit you to try. When E first dropped her nap it was summer so we just headed out into the fresh air a lot and then would come back for bath and sleep prep early enough that if she dozed off she'd be ready for bed. I also tried (when I was at home) to do a main meal at lunch time so it didn't matter so much if she was too tired to eat much at tea.

When we first went without the nap E went from a day like this:

WU - 7ish
Nap - 2.30/3pm until 4.30/5pm
Bt - 9.30/10pm (yuck)

To WU - 7ish and sometimes later if we weren't waking her to go out
Bt - 6.30/7ish.

Others swear by going for an 11 hour day on a NND. It is a bit of trial and error, which I why I went for E being ready for bed earlier than she needed to just in case she needed sleep earlier than expected.

Does that make sense?

Buttonbobs · « **Reply #10 on:** February 25, 2015, 22:01:43 pm »

Oh and anther thought, I do understand you wanting to retain bath time for DH, but this transition won't last forever and once he is settled on no nap his days will lengthen a little anyway, so even if you have to do bath earlier for a bit and DH misses it, he'll soon be able to enjoy that time again (and there's also weekend baths)

Good luck

labrodyk · « **Reply #11 on:** February 26, 2015, 08:16:20 am »

Naomi, you really are a star! Thank you for your amazing advice

So we successfully made it through the day with very little drama. Big thanks to hubby who got H out of my hair mid-morning and did some shopping (hubby said H was really good for him. - typical!!). He was a tad grumpy when they got home at 1.30 but I had a hot meal waiting like you suggested and he scoffed it all. Then I just said we'd watch a movie today instead of nap time. He didn't even ask for a nap all day.
Big thanks also to my parents who made an appearance shortly after 2pm for the rest of the afternoon. Coupled with some water play and dinner out at a restaurant we made it home for our last toilet trip, chucked his nappy and pj's on and put him to bed just before 7pm. . Had we been home he really should/could have gone down at 6.30 after a proper wind down but nevertheless he was asleep by 7.05!

Now, should I brace myself for an early morning or nightwakings? That's what we usually get

Also, how do I approach tomorrow? Offer the nap alternate days to NND or push through with no nap?

Please guide me 'oh amazing ones'.

Thank you again,
Laura

jessmum46 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 26, 2015, 12:48:05 pm »

How was the night? Well done for going for it!

labrodyk · « **Reply #13 on:** February 26, 2015, 19:46:41 pm »

Hi Katherine! Thanks so much for your support.

I made a rookie mistake last night and forgot to 'lock' the groclock so just before 6.30 H came and asked to do a wee but then threw a serious tantrum because he'd turned the sun on. He's back in bed now quietly but doubt he'll go back to sleep. I've taken away the monitor so if he woke it was nothing serious because I didn't hear it. perhaps he woke around 6 so 11hrs ONS but I can't be sure. He has a tendency of laying quietly for a LONG time....Pretty annoyed with myself to be honest!

How do I handle today? We are going out (first scan for new bub!!) so a car nap is likely even if it's not intended.

jessmum46 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 26, 2015, 19:51:44 pm »

That's not a bad night at all for a first NND, well done

. What time are you out and about today? When DD was nap-dropping she would doze off at around 3pm and we'd let her have 20 mins, any longer she was awful to wake but that just took the edge off a bit. If you're out in the morning however I would maybe let him have 45 mins or so? Then a good long A before BT should stop too much silliness x

labrodyk · « **Reply #15 on:** February 26, 2015, 20:29:44 pm »

Thanks

We're out in the morning and then having lunch so he may doze off when we leave around 2ish? Then again, he may not. We were going to head somewhere else if he did, just long enough for a little nap of 20mins or so but I'm scared of it falling too close to BT. 7.30 is our usual with a decent bed nap, 6.30/7 for no nap but perhaps even with 20mins he'd need 7.30?

jessmum46 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 26, 2015, 20:39:55 pm »

We did our normal BT on a 20 min nap...I'd have him ready early-ish say for 7pm and then drag out the routine a little if it seems he may be UT x

Buttonbobs · « **Reply #17 on:** February 26, 2015, 23:12:40 pm »

Well done for that first NND - sounds great

and I agree with Katherine here ^^^

labrodyk · « **Reply #18 on:** February 27, 2015, 09:06:20 am »

H fell asleep at 2.35 in the car and waking him at 3 was like waking the dead! It was dreadful, took me 10mins of shaking him, turning the TV up and practically screaming at him. He was pretty damn grumpy tr rest of the afternoon...

As for BT, he was in bed at 7.30 but hopped out after 20mins but he went straight back. Asleep after 8pm.

What do I make of that?

jessmum46 · « **Reply #19 on:** February 27, 2015, 09:31:11 am »

I found any longer than 20 mins J was horrid to wake. I think you have to catch them whilst still in light sleep otherwise they are a bit 'too' rested and realise just how tired they feel. Not sure if that makes sense but it was what we found.

Bedtime could have been UT or OT, it's very hard to tell at this stage. My gut would be OT but you never know. We in the end went with set BT 7pm with a nap and 6.30pm without and just pushed through, that was generally with a 6am or later WU x

labrodyk · « **Reply #20 on:** February 27, 2015, 09:52:22 am »

I think he entered deep sleep the second he closed his eyes today - he was absolutely out cold!

How are the rest of the days coming supposed to go. I don't drive so I can't do car naps without hubby and he's not here at rest time for the next 10 days straight. Do I offer a NND every second day, every third or less consistent than that? Not sure where and when these quick naps are going to happen or at what time....

With these shorter naps, 7pm is probably a better bedtime and 6.30 for NND - thank you.

labrodyk · « **Reply #21 on:** February 28, 2015, 01:03:35 am »

H woke at 4.30 SCREAMING this morning and came running into my room. His nappy had leaked through and he was very wet. I changed his nappy & clothes and put him back to bed. Not sure when he fell back asleep but was awake when I checked on him at 6.30.

Today he's VERY grumpy and upset. I have the most horrific morning sickness so thought I'd just put a movie on and hope for the best. Maybe he'll drift off.

I feel so bad having him be so miserable

labrodyk · « **Reply #22 on:** February 28, 2015, 05:52:39 am »

Ok wow, total grump. Told my sister at 4pm "I'm really tired". Tonight is likely not to go anywhere near as well as the other day. Am aiming to have him down and asleep by 6.30

jessmum46 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 28, 2015, 06:56:36 am »

Allow that catnap if he needs it to make BT xx

labrodyk · « **Reply #24 on:** February 28, 2015, 10:04:43 am »

Where and what time do I offer that catnap if I don't have the car? He could have slept for hours today - he was fired from the minute he woke.

Buttonbobs · « **Reply #25 on:** February 28, 2015, 12:49:13 pm »

Well if he looks absolutely shattered, try and let him have a doze (no more than 20 mins) shortly before he looks like he can't cope and perhaps let him doze somewhere other than bed (so the sofa or in his buggy) and see how you get on.

With E I could let her CN anytime up until about 4pm for it to not affect BT, and in a way it was better for us to have it happen later as she too was v grumpy after the CN. I used to view it as a top up to give her just enough energy to have a bite to eat, get through bath and stories and go back to sleep. But others I know have to have WU a good deal earlier in order for BT to be preserved. So itMs a bit of trial and error really.

IIWM i would probably try for a later CN and then middle through the grump to BT, and if that didn't work, just try EBT - perhaps 5.30pm?

labrodyk · « **Reply #26 on:** March 01, 2015, 10:19:55 am »

I tried to get him to doze today when we got home at 2pm but he wouldn't despite being tired. I have him a little TV time for an hour and then he seemed to perk up when hubby got home at 3. Was almost 40 degrees here today so we played with the graden hose, had an early dinner and started bedtime routine. Was in bed about 6.25 and asleep 6.30.

He is most definitely tired but today wasn't as bad as the day before. How long will it take for him to adjust? I forgot got chance his clock this morning so he was up and ready to get up at 6.30 but his sun didn't come out until 7. I changed it tonight to 6.30 so will see how he goes.

Thanks for helping ladies, I really appreciate it.

Buttonbobs · « **Reply #27 on:** March 01, 2015, 14:28:01 pm »

I would say that any changes at this age take a good week or two to settle, but it does sound like he's on the way to getting it.

labrodyk · « **Reply #28 on:** March 02, 2015, 04:12:16 am »

Ok, so today was really bad and he's been having meltdowns from pretty early this morning. I set the groclock to 12hrs Max so we've been up since 6.30 making it a very long day. Tired and wanting a sleep in nowhere but his bed from about 10am. Finally got him to nap for 20mins on the lounge at 2.30 but was a complete angry mess when I woke him. Screaming and begging to go back to sleep.

I feel really bad and I'm second guessing myself. I put yet another movie on from 1pm but noway was he falling asleep although clearly exhausted. This is so hard, he's just not happy

Buttonbobs · « **Reply #29 on:** March 02, 2015, 08:49:16 am »

This is unfortunately a tough transition for LOs who don't manage OT well - as some of it is inevitable. Stick with it mama, you'll get there.

Just one thing, as your gro clock was set for 7am before, I'd keep it at that no matter what time he goes to bed. After a no nap day he may tack on and surprise you - and he may need more than 12 hours initially during the transition. My dD had never tacked on before but did during the 1-0.

labrodyk · « **Reply #30 on:** March 03, 2015, 09:19:20 am »

Thanks again Naomi! He most definitely does not handle OT well.

So far, no tacking on which is making things quite hard. Awake from shortly after 6 each morning. Nap today was at 2.24-2.44 on the lounge again. Tried to get him to sleep during movie but he ADORES TV so that doesn't seem to be happening. He also detests being woken and cries and holds onto me for ages. I have a nice snack ready when I wake him but he's a real demon. He does perk up eventually but is quite overexcited and I suspect overtired. Is in bed at 7 and asleep by 7.20.

Should I be looking at offering a big sleep every second day or will that not work?

labrodyk · « **Reply #31 on:** March 03, 2015, 19:24:12 pm »

Today is going to be a long day - he woke at 5am crying/calling out then up out of bed crying from 6.10. Got him to go back to bed but he was quite upset. He settled pretty quickly but isn't falling back to sleep.

He's clearly not getting anywhere near the sleep he needs based on his mood

particularly since he says "mummy, I'm REALLY tired" about 50 times a day!!

Buttonbobs · « **Reply #32 on:** March 03, 2015, 22:15:02 pm »

Oh bless him, and poor you. It will take him some time to adjust to the changes, keep going if you can for a few more days.

I can't see that he will do well with some NNDs and some long nap days, I'm not sure that will be enough to help him lengthen his nights, which I really believe is what he needs to get over the OT.

Hang on in there sweetie, we can reassess in a week. (((Hugs)))

labrodyk · « **Reply #33 on:** March 05, 2015, 08:32:08 am »

Sorry Naomi, I know we said evaluate in a week but I'm really worried about my little boy.

Went to playgroup today and everyone kept commenting how pale he looked and the massive black circles under his eyes. He absolutely collapsed on the lounge at 1.15 and I woke him after 20mins. Had meltdown after meltdown from about 5pm and was in bed at 6.35 - asleep in 10 mins.

It seems like with a long nap or a short nap our wakeups are the same and I don't think if that he's ever going to extend those nights. I can keep trying but I just feel that H is getting more and more tired by the day and little tasks are becoming really difficult. Eating, not getting to the toilet when he's normally amazing, uncoordinated playing and just says he wants to go to bed all the time.

Just looking at H you can tell he's really struggling and I feel useless and completely at a loss of what to do. Part of me just wants to let him sleep and work out something that works for him, so long as he's happy although I've never been very good at that.

Buttonbobs · « **Reply #34 on:** March 05, 2015, 20:55:49 pm »

This is difficult for us, as honestly I do want to say to keep pushing on through, children do eventually (when super super tired) actually sleep. I do think you could be just round the corner from it clicking and getting to him adjusting to the new pattern.

But, and this is the main problem, we aren't with you, we don't know your DS, and we can't see what you're seeing. At some point you must follow your mummy instinct, and I wouldn't want to tell you to ignore that.

Looking back at our conversations about your DS's sleep over the past months (possibly almost a year) he has never really been that well rested and perhaps my view that he actually is quite LSN and needs less (or no) day sleep is correct. Perhaps the cat nap is actually more trouble than it is worth. But I don't know.

What do you want to do?

labrodyk · « **Reply #35 on:** March 05, 2015, 21:38:10 pm »

Thanks Naomi, It really is so hard because I see him and his behaviour and it's so easy to second guess myself. DH is clearly of the belief that he needs a really good nap in the day based on his mood.

He was awake at 6.30 again when I checked him but clearly awake for some time before that as he woke at 4.30 crying but eventually self settled.

I don't know what to do but my gut is saying that he needs a big sleep. His nights aren't lengthening. I'm going to have bedtime shennanigans but I don't know what is worse. Not being able enjoy him and get through the day, or an hour of fluffing around and hopping out of bed.

Thank you so much for the continued support. xo

Buttonbobs · « **Reply #36 on:** March 06, 2015, 09:06:43 am »

Can you hold out for a few more days - you've managed so far with this and it was be a shame to take a backwards step without havering seen if this could really help. Whatever you decide, we're here for you xx

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Author Topic: Overexcited 28mo! UT or OT? (Read 3036 times)