DESPERATE Please explain sh/pat and help with EASY for almost 4 months old

[AMJ]

Somitimes it's hard to tell if  there is a# 2. But I feel so guilty not changing her diaper .

 " Is she crying after E at night and you're having to shh/pat her back to sleep? Do you think she is just more aware that you're all in the same room and that might be why she doesn't want to go back to sleep?
If she's just fussy after E at night, just let her be and see what she does."
Yes she starts to cry after sometime when I place her in a crib. We moved out of the room now and sleep in the next room. She looks at night clock, night light. I had to cover the night clock but I need the night light to see.
 "Are you still having to shh/pat her mid naps or is she ok during the day and puts herself back to sleep after 45 mins? "
No i didnt have to sh/pat her for the first to naps at all fora while. just had to do it for CN cause was lying there and whining and screaching and then sometimes crying for 20 min or more. so i didnt want to get her OT and skip the CN sho sh/pated for 30 min and she slept for 30 min.

"With regards to E in the morning, I think its normal... especially if she's taking full feed, that means she probably needs it. Mine wakes twice at night now - 11-12 and again around 4-5am. "
Oh I don't mind feeding her its just she wouldn't go back to S. so I sh/patted cause wasn't sure how to manage her day if she WU at 6:00. Or if I leave her just to lay there and whine etc and she doesn't fall back asleep and its 7 am, do I count that hr as A or S?? Very often it takes me 35 min to sh/pat once she closes her eyes because she keeps waking tossing turning opening her eyes and jolting so usually after 35 she's asleep. Plus the time it takes to quiet her down with sh/pat.
I also started sh/patting her during E since its before S for us so this way she gets sleepy because as I said before it became so difficult to put her to S.

[Layla]

Sorry I haven't replied earlier... J has decided to change the routine (again) so we're kinda in an overtired cycle at the moment and she was up at 5.30am this morning and had to wait until 9am before her morning nap . We've had a yucky nap day yesterday and today and she went down for the night at 6.30 pm so fingers crossed she sleeps well tonight!

But I feel so guilty not changing her diaper

Don't feel guilty! I put lots of bum cream and we use H*ggies nappies, which are super absorbent so touch wood there hasn't been any leaks or bum rashes yet

She looks at night clock, night light. I had to cover the night clock but I need the night light to see.

This made me giggle a little. I had to put duct tape over our monitor light because she too would stare at it at night and then I realised she was staring at the little light and had to cover it. At night, I don't use the night light in her room (white noise machine comes with one) but I do put the lamp on in my room (which is down the hall) and I keep her door ajar and that way just enough light comes in for me to see her, pick her up, sit on the chair, feed and then put her back in the cot after I burp her.

With regards to the catnap, it is before this nap that we usually have the longer A time (2hrs 15mins) or thereabouts.. do you think she might need a little more A time before this nap? I can't wait for the catnap to go!!!

[AMJ]

maybe i'll do the same-just turn on the light in our room too

i'm not too sure if she needs more A time before cn. i guess i should experiment. but she does end up staying up about 2.5 hr or even 3 because she won't go down. we alway end up shush/pat her for about 30 min while she screams her lungs out. and then our nights are bed cause she is OT. last night she woke up 4 times. and i cant tell if she is hungry or not until i try to feed her. so she took only 1 full feed.
 
"I can't wait for the catnap to go!!!" amen to that!!!! i hate cn!!!!!!

[Layla]

maybe i'll do the same-just turn on the light in our room too

yes, or just somewhere else in the house that will bring in enough light for you to see (if you don't want to wake DH)

i'm not too sure if she needs more A time before cn. i guess i should experiment. but she does end up staying up about 2.5 hr or even 3 because she won't go down. we alway end up shush/pat her for about 30 min while she screams her lungs out. and then our nights are bed cause she is OT.

You could try an extra 15 mins and that may mean she'll settle better for the catnap (sometimes it can take longer to settle because they're not quiet tired enough and need more A time) OR I wonder if you'd be willing to just BF her to sleep for the catnap and hold her for 30/45mins instead of putting her down and risk waking her and then doing shh/pat for 30mins.

I've attached a link for you to look at re: 3-2 nap transition and there is also a support thread for other mums who are going through the transition if you want to have a look at their posts to see what works for them...

All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months
Anyone want to talk about the 3-2 Nap transition? Part 2

[AMJ]

Thank you for the links!!!!!!!
And of course I wouldn't mind holding her during the CN but isn't it can start a bad habit of AP? I used to do this at 2 months old.

I was also wondering when should I stop shush/pat and start pu/pd instead??how do I know when to transition and how to do it?

And she is still NW 3-4 times after BT. Don't know what to do about that

[Layla]

I think you'll find that most mums here use a bit of APOP (accidental parenting on purpose) to achieve the catnap as it can be otherwise quiet tricky! So I wouldn't worry about it... and I think I may have mentioned way earlier, for us all naps after 4pm when mine was younger were in a sling and it didn't affect how she would fall asleep at other times.

With regards to shh/pat, you do it as long as it is working. Are you still having to shh/pat her for naps though or is this for the night wakings? Do you think the night wakings are related to her catnap being too late and a later bedtime? When you mentioned in the past her waking at night (9.30pm i think) she was breaking out of the swaddle... could this be why she is waking? I never really did pu/pd as I only had to do the shh/pat method to teach how to fall asleep and at night I just feed and back to bed and if its a wake up close to when she last ate, I do the shh/pat. Here is a link to the pupd method How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)

Did you want to post your EAS (last couple of days)?

[AMJ]

For a while I only had to shush/pat only for NW but yesterday I had to do it for both naps.

I don't think her CN is late though. It's usually between 4-5but if she is fighting it then it happens letter of course.
Regarding breaking out of a swaddle we now use a miracle blanket so she can't get out anymore. Wwhen I will receive Zipadee zip in the mail I will start to wean her from swaddling.

Another thing is we can't seem to fix is EW. She is waking up now at 6:30 and I think this might be due to many days being screwed up so she had an early BT so she is used to EW. I'm trying to moove her BT but so far she still wakes up at 6:30. And if she is happy I just usually let her lay there but then the whole day shifts and again we are back to early BT. It's like a vicious cycle.

[AMJ]

Here are our last couple of days:
Aug 19 2013

6:24 WU cooing pooped. Left in the crib
6:45 get up
8:00 E
8:30 S

9:45 WU A
11:15 E
11:55 S

12:35 WU cooing
12:45 sh/pat for 30 min

1:35 WU A had a burp
2:15 E 10 min
Tried putting to S early cause was rubbing her eyes but didnt work
3:00 E
3:20 in crib whining
Sh/patting for a very long time.
4:15 CN

4:45 WU A
E on and off
5:50 E
6:45 BT

7:25 WU crying sh/pat
7:50 S

9:00 WU whining crying
9:10 E
9:45 S

1:00 WU
1:10 E falling asleep non stop
1:50 back in the crib

4:25 WU whining
4:36 E
5:10 S

Aug 20 2013

7:07 WU me A
8:03 E (5+5+20)
9:10 S

10:40 WU on her own A
11:45 E on and off
12:30 S

1:42 WU crying shush/pat till 2:00
2:00 get up -burped A
2:03 E 7 min
3:11 E
3:40 in the crib started shush/pat at 3:50
4:15/20 CN

4:40 WU A
5:50 E
6:40 BT

7:30 WU self soothed

10:45 WU E
11:45 S

3:10 WU cooing then crying
3:25 E
3:51 S


Aug 21 2013

6:25 WU cooing
7:00 get her up
7:25 E 5 min
7:40 E 35 min
8:20 in the crib cooing a bit whining
8:30 / 8:35 S

9:06 WU whining started to cry
9:17 star shush/pat
9:24 S/ shush/pat till 9:57
10:08 WU crying

10:15 out of crib A
11:15 E on and off till 11:50
12:05 in the crib whining
12:10 S
12:42 WU whining self soothed
12:50 S
1:20 WU crying shush/pat till 1:55

2:05 WU me A
3:00 E on and off till 3:55
4:05 CN

4:30 WU A
5:15 E on and off till 6:45
6:50 / 7:00 BT

9:04 WU
9:18 E
9:50 S

12:25WU cooing crying
E
1:34 S

3:31 WU cooing
3:36 self soothed

[Layla]

I wonder if she might need more A time again since for some of those naps (i think the pm nap) she is waking up and cooing, which is generally an indication of needing more A time as she might not be tired enough to sleep past 45mins. How would you feel about adding an extra 15mins to her pm A time to see if she will sleep longer? In order to shift her bedtime later/wake up later, you would have to start with the morning nap so add 10/15mins to her morning A time so that the morning nap starts a little later and then do the same with afternoon nap and catnap. Or if you think 15mins is too much then start with 5 mins and add another 5 every 3/4 days or so.

For the night wakings, the rule of thumb is to feed at night at the same intervals as during the day (so 3.5-4hrs) but if she's up at 9pm, then you would try and resettle her. Does she seem to eat properly when she wakes at night? Do you think the E before S is confusing her or does she go down awake when you put her down for naps? For naps, after you put her down in the cot, do you have to shh/pat or are you able to leave her awake and she puts herself to sleep? Did you want me to get someone else to have a look at this thread to see if they can help you change the E to S part of the routine?

Fwiw things aren't always smooth with us either - my lo was taking 3 very short naps a few days in a row and I was putting her down at 6pm and she would sleep till 7am about 3 days ago and yesterday I had to wake her from naps (1.5hrs into) to protect catnap and bedtime. Bedtime was 7pm and she woke at 5.30am this morning . I attempted to feed and back to sleep but my 8yo came into the room to tell me she had a nightmare and there was no more chance of going back to sleep  . Today she stayed up until 8.45am (school run, can't help it) and slept 1.5hrs and is now sleeping for 2hrs for pm nap (i'll wake her in a minute) and fingers crossed she'll take a catnap and not wake up at 5.30am again tomorrow! Its never ending and just when i think i have it figured out, she changes on me

[AMJ]

Thanks for the reply!:)

"I wonder if she might need more A time again since for some of those naps (i think the pm nap) she is waking up and cooing, which is generally an indication of needing more A time as she might not be tired enough to sleep past 45mins. How would you feel about adding an extra 15mins to her pm A time to see if she will sleep longer? In order to shift her bedtime later/wake up later, you would have to start with the morning nap so add 10/15mins to her morning A time so that the morning nap starts a little later and then do the same with afternoon nap and catnap. Or if you think 15mins is too much then start with 5 mins and add another 5 every 3/4 days or so."

So I should add 10/15 min to the first A (to shift BT and morning WU time) and at the same time add 15 min to the second A time but keep the last 2 A's the same (2 hrs)? And if that fixes EW then go back to 2 hrs of first A?

"For the night wakings, the rule of thumb is to feed at night at the same intervals as during the day (so 3.5-) but if she's up at 9pm, then you would try and resettle her. Does she seem to eat properly when she wakes at night? Do you think the E before S is confusing her or does she go down awake when you put her down for naps? For naps, after you put her down in the cot, do you have to shh/pat or are you able to leave her awake and she puts herself to sleep? Did you want me to get someone else to have a look at this thread to see if they can help you change the E to S part of the routine?"

Of I see that makes sense. Some time she has a full feed sometimes she falls asleep fast but after gulping rapidly. E before S might be consisting her and every time it's different. We had few days that she was going down awake but sleepy and she was able to put herself to sleep but now she is back to falling asleep on the breast. I don't have to shush/pat her for naps to get her to sleep eel only for CN sometimes.
I actually had a thread in Feeding forum and I was advise to gradually move her E in 10 mins increment back. It worked for few days and but today we couldn't do it.

"Fwiw things aren't always smooth with us either - my lo was taking 3 very short naps a few days in a row and I was putting her down at 6pm and she would sleep till 7am about 3 days ago and yesterday I had to wake her from naps (1.5hrs into) to protect catnap and bedtime. Bedtime was 7pm and she woke at 5.30am this morning . I attempted to feed and back to sleep but my 8yo came into the room to tell me she had a nightmare and there was no more chance of going back to sleep  . Today she stayed up until 8.45am (school run, can't help it) and slept 1.5hrs and is now sleeping for 2hrs for pm nap (i'll wake her in a minute) and fingers crossed she'll take a catnap and not wake up at 5.30am again tomorrow! Its never ending and just when i think i have it figured out, she changes on me "

It must be hard to try and accommodate your baby's routine with 2 older siblings in the house!!! You are doing great! And omg your LO stayed up from 5:30 to 8:45 and still had good naps, amazing!! And I know it feels like you figured something out and for a few days everything goes smooth but then they change everything on us. This was hard for me at first since she is our first but now I'm rolling with the punches and learning lots as I go. I never thought this is what it take to be a mom and although it is extremely hard and it Adlai so amazing and brings me so much joy!!

[AMJ]

Oh yeah so what I think I noticed is her morning naps started to be 30 mins (OT?)and afternoon naps are 1 hr (UT). So should I decrease her morning A to 1 hr 50 min and I will increase her afternoon A to 2 hr 15 like you said.
When does it get easier? Or doest it at all? She woke up 3 times tonight. The last time she was wide awake and after pooped. It took awake to shush/pat back to sleep.
How long does your NF and E during the day take?

[AMJ]

Ok so I don't think naps are 30 mins in the morning and 1 hr in the afternoon. It's actually all over the place and I don't see a patern. This was our day so far:

Aug 23 2013

7:00 WU A
8:15 E on and off till 8:55
9:00 in the crib
9:10 S self soothed
9:40 WU crying. Self soothed twice but kept waking up from jolts. Shush/pat from 10:00 to 10:40

10:45 WU crying A
12:15 E
12:45 in the crib self soothed
12:50 S
1:30 WU crying and same thing as the morning- putting herself back to sleep but keeps waking up. 1:45 shush/pat till 2:15

2:15 WU A

Sometimes it's 30 mins sometimes its 35 or 40. What confuses me are the 30 min naps cause I thought that means she is OT. Should I still increase the A's?

[Layla]

Is the miracle blanket much different to how she was swaddled (sorry never swaddled my lo so don't know the difference). Do you think she's just getting used to not being in a swaddle anymore and waking herself up from jolts? 30 min naps do usually mean overtired so in that case maybe leave it at 2 hrs A time for now. I am stuck and running out of ideas... do you think the swaddle/miracle blanket is getting in the way . She may be overtired in general (because her naps and nights have not been great last couple of days) but still under tired to take a good nap? You could try leaving her morning A time as 2 hrs and maybe add 5 mins to pm A time to see if that makes a difference? Because she is having E before S, do you think she's waking herself up due to discomfort (maybe she hasn't burped well after E)? Could you try to move the E away from S a bit and start introducing a different nap routine (we change nappy, read a few books, put the white noise machine on and i walk around the room with her)?

[AMJ]

The miracle blanket is a swaddling blanket only is it much harder to get out if it so she is swaddled for naps. Here is a link to give you an idea.
http://www.miracleblanket.com/

For the past couple of days we did end up finishing E 10 -15 min before S so she had a good burp so I don't think it's that.for wind down we cuddle, listen to lullaby and I walk with her as well.
I'm so confused its just doesn't make spence anymore

[Layla]

(((hugs))) I've asked someone else to look at the thread to see if I may be missing anything. Don't be afraid to use a bit of AP for the catnap and I had to do that yesterday and BF her to sleep and held her for 30mins until she woke. I really don't want to suggest more A time in case it backfires but around 5 months, the A time is around 2-2.5hrs (again don't push if not comfortable). J is an angel baby and she was 2 weeks overdue so that may be why she is ok with the longer A times