Seem to be Slipping Backwards with EASY and our w/4 mo, 3 wk. old

[ccg01]

Could really use some advice as we're concerned this may not be working for our baby and are contemplating other methods. We read the Baby Whisperer Solves All Your Problems and many many of these posts. Started putting our DS on EASY on Dec. 29. (Using the 3 hr to 4 hr transition schedule from the book.) He had been sleeping through the night from about 6 weeks to 3 mos. and gradually, probably due to our feeding him at night and also not really teaching him to sleep, was waking several times most nights and also had a very erratic nap schedule.

Implementing the program was skewed a bit by his first cold, which occurred about 6 days into the training and left about a week later. (So we've now had nearly a week of this with a healthy baby.)

The good progress:
Morning naps are now pretty regular (although lately he's having a hard time staying awake for long enough for the As) in timing and length
We've cut out middle of the night feedings, he doesn't try to nurse or cry for a bottle now!
We have had a handful (four? five?) nights where he slept til 6:30 or 6:45 (we've claimed this as a decent time, as it works well w/work schedules)

The bad:
Afternoon naps and some morning naps are still requiring extended PU/PD (as in 40 minutes plus at times)
He's only slept all night a few times. Usually waking once between 1:30 and 3:30 and then again around 5. We wait to go to him, but have wound up needing to do PU/PD to some extent most of the times.
Some recent days, the routine has been all over the place -- including one day where there was an entire extra ESA cycle. BTW, we have remained home for all naps, etc.

Here's his routine as it looked today.
Woke at 4:36, babbling in crib. Seemed to quiet, woke again at around 5:20. When he started crying at 5:30, did Pu/Pd to get him back to sleep (2 different times).
E 6:45 Wake
A 6:48-7:00 nursed
S 8:17-9:47 (pu/pd 9:33-9:47)

E 9:58-10:15
A 10.16-11:10
S 11:12-12:35 (pu/pd 12:10-12:35)

E 1:08-1:27
A 1:29-2:40
S 2:42-3:50 (pu/pd 3:14-3:50)

E 4:14-4:35
A 4:35-6:45 (bath at 6:35)
E 6:45-7:05
S 7:25 (and then needed a bit of settling help -- crying at 7:30)

DF 9:45 (sometimes he wakes early for this) planned. I really can't stay up later for this feed and still function at work...

THANK YOU in advance for any suggestions!!!

[rebecaq]

Hi hun and welcome to BW 

All in all things aren't as bad as they seem. So please take some comfort in knowing that and that I'm sure things will smooth out soon. 

Stating EASY at 4 months can be more challenging than beginning before. For 4 months your ds (dear/darling son) has been taught that things are done erraticly and to be fed at night. So when you begin to implement EASY he becomes confused.  It's absolutely normal that he resists and becomes upset and even more erractic. But trust me, if you stick to it and commit to your new routine 100% things will improve soon. 

I noticed when you posted your routine that you wrote down the exact times of everything. This leads me to believe you are watching the clock, and EASY isn't so much about watching the clock    It setting up a predictable E-A-S pattern for your ds. So if one day his nap is 15 mins shorter then that's ok, you just go to the E part of the routine and so on.  Lots of mommies tend to get worried if one day their ds has a 3 hour nap, they worry what that will do to their "schedule". And that's the biggest misconception about EASY, it's not a schedule, it's a routine.  So if something like that happens just roll with it and go on with your day    Obviously there are days when naps are short and our babies tend to be cranky, but we can't all have good days right?   The main goal of EASY is to have a good day to day with the occasional very good and not so good days.

Have you taken the Know Your Baby quiz?  That can shed a lot of light on how to tackle problems.

For the most part I think your EASY routine looks good and he seems to need help extending his naps. He's waking pretty much at the 45 min mark, which happens more than you think. Try Wake to Sleep which worked for us very well.  If you continue to have trouble after trying wake to sleep and PU/PD then stopping by the naps boards may be a good idea. The mods there can offer you tons of help and support.

MY questions for you are:

What is his total milk intake?
What does his A time consist of?
Do you have a wind down routine for naps and betime?

Hope I've been able to help you a bit

- Beca

[ccg01]

Beca,

Thanks for the encouragement and advice! First, to answer your questions...

A typical day's milk and formula is about 29 oz. He also gets two breastfeeds of about 15-20 min. each.
A time usually is spent playing w/his toys on the floor, or playing w/Daddy (who is with him during the day). If he's starting to get tired, A time might be being carried.
Bedtime routine is bath, breast & bottle, diaper change, lights off, short lullaby while he's swaddled, holding for a few minutes and into crib. Usually takes him a few minutes to drift off. (less than 10 most nights once in crib)
Nap is diaper change, lights down, swaddle, holding and then crib.

Good observation about the exact times -- partially due to digital clocks! But we are trying to follow recommended EAS times as we get him started... do wonder what we do when he has shorter naps and feeds -- keep him up til regular bedtime or not? (we do watch for his sleep cues) And when you say 100%, is that following the pattern? Or keeping to the overall 3.5-4 hrs.?

We had noticed the 45 min-ish nap pattern... worth trying WTS as this much ou/pd is physically wearing out our backs! Will try the quiz as well -- I had taken it a few months ago and thought him to be mostly textbook.

Do you have any suggestions re: the remaining night/early wakings? Are those likely to sort themselves out? Last night he woke at 1 but went back to sleep with a couple pick-ups/put downs and a bit of shushing... back asleep in about 10 min. and then woke at 5:48, babbling to himself quite merrily!

Again, many thanks!!

[rebecaq]

Hello again 

How has today been going for you?

He gets a great amount of milk! And his A time also seems appropritate for his age. I was wondering, has he hit any milestones? Scooting or crawling? Things like that can throw babies for a spin and cause all sorts of nightwakings and short naps. Hee hee hee, my ds used to crawl asleep and bump his head on the rails of the crib and wake him up in wails! Silly silly boy   
Your wind down routine also sounds good to me. 

I think it's great your want to follow the suggested EASY times to get him started. Remember that all babies are different and I think it's best to set up their routine according to their cues.  Another example with my ds. He's an extremely spirited baby, well toddler now  .  So when I was reading BWSAYP I got very worried and started preparing myself for rough times with sleep.  But lo and behold he slept more than usual, and beleive it or not that would FREAK me out!!  It was one of the sleep mods that told me I was a spaz and to take advantage of the loads of "me" time.  So when we made the 2-1 nap switch and Santiago would nap for 5 hours I would just get lots of housework done instead of fretting. So if your ds has shorter naps and shorter feeds and gives you sleepy cues early then follow his lead. Although, if he was a short nap and feed day and seems to be able to stay up to regular bedtime then do that.  When I say to stick to the routine 100% I mean to not switch the pattern to say an ESA pattern. And I think staying within the 3.5-4 routine is the way to go with your ds's age.

Textbook baby! Lucky you!!!

As for the early and nightwakings, I say wait it out a little bit. It may just be a reaction to the routine change. Does he take a paci? That's a great tool to keeping him calm until 6:30 or so.

I hope to hear from you soon!

- Beca

[ccg01]

Thanks again for the advice and the support! Well, last night was a rough one. He woke at 1:40 -- only took about 10 minutes to get him back to sleep (pu/pd)... BUT he then woke again wailing at 2:15. Took over an hour to get him back to sleep w/pu/pd and some shushing. He was really worked up and every put down brought more crying. Really wondering if we're doing something wrong w/that technique as we're now 20 some days in and still using it for most naps and nights?? Two things of confusion -- at his age does he go back into the crib the instant the crying stops or do we hold til he calms, too? And, is it only w/an escalating cry that we pick up or is a flat cry (not the fussy mantra crying) something to pick up on, too? We've tried both approaches, which may be part of the problem... it's somewhat confusing trying to figure out the finer points of the technique.

He woke up for the day this morning shortly after 7.

Today we had a better pu/pd session at his first nap (which was fairly early, as he seemed quite sleepy), it just took 20 minutes and then he was out for a good nap again. He is falling asleep the instant we pick him up in pu, though, we wonder what, if anything, that means...

Also, since starting EASY, we're giving him that dreamfeed. Wondering if that is perhaps affecting his night sleep patterns, as he tends to wake during the DF, which means his first bedtime sleep cycle is around 2 1/2 to 3 hrs... which is about the same time we see the next night waking.

Sorry for so many questions!

As for milestones, he is scooting backwards a lot more over the last few days and also sitting up better (supported). Also babbling some new sounds. Has never been one for the pacifier, spits it out promptly and repeatedly!!!

Additional question -- is it okay to use some calm A time after he wakes to stretch the time before the next feed when he's not acting hungry (otherwise, w/days w/short EA time, he is closer to a 3 hr routine)?

We are really hoping to get some sleep one of these moons! :-)

Thanks again for your help,
Beth

[shannonmomoftwo]

Hello!

I only have a minute, but my DS is 4 months and he didn't do well with the DF. Once we cut it out he was sleeping through the night a week later. It can throw some babies off. I would try it and see what happens. It might help! I will look for the update!

Good luck and hang in there.

[ccg01]

An update (will try to give more details about the routines soon, am at work and don't have it handy) -- we seem to have progress!

DS slept until 3:45 in the morning Sunday without an earlier waking. We listened, and as the crying sounded like a mantra cry (as best as we can tell, we are still learning) and didn't escalate, we didn't go in and he fell asleep on his own! He woke again about 2 hrs later, the pattern repeated and he fell asleep until 7. Whew!

Yesterday was a "short" day -- he seemed to really have a hard time staying awake for longer A times. We wound up giving him a catnap, the first he ever took w/out protest, before bedtime.

This morning he slept until 5:30, babbled and finally, after he started to get really fussy, we got him up at 6:10. My husband trying pu/pd, but DS seemed truly hungry. So... he was up earlier than we would like, not sure if getting him up was the right thing or not... but the last 2 nights are big progress, it seems.

It also seems he is on more of a 3 hr EASY right now. I guess that means we should work back toward the 3.5 to 4 hr EASY? Any guidance on when to extend his A when he is giving sleep cues and when to let him sleep?

Thanks again!
p.s. ShannonsMom, we'll watch the dream feed and see what happens -- it is fairly new for him as night feedings were an issue previously. Definitely something to consider!

[rebecaq]

BETH!!!  I'm doing a jig over here!! 

DS slept until 3:45 in the morning Sunday without an earlier waking. We listened, and as the crying sounded like a mantra cry (as best as we can tell, we are still learning) and didn't escalate, we didn't go in and he fell asleep on his own! He woke again about 2 hrs later, the pattern repeated and he fell asleep until 7. Whew!

A jig I tell ya!!! 

Good call on him needing 3.5 hour EASY rather than 4.  As soon as he's fully settled into his routine then you can start scooting him up to 4 hours 

Two things of confusion -- at his age does he go back into the crib the instant the crying stops or do we hold til he calms, too? And, is it only w/an escalating cry that we pick up or is a flat cry (not the fussy mantra crying) something to pick up on, too?

It's best to hold him till he's calm, but not falling asleep in your arms.  Sometimes they may ahve stopped crying but aren't completely calm.  And for the most part I go in when ds gives the "Momma get in here!!!" cry. If it's a flat cry I leave him there. Most of the time it's a way of them blowing off that little bit of steam they have left.

About the DF. I personally never did it because it would wake my spirited boy up. I would cluster feed him everyday and it was a good way to tank him up for the night.  So I would feed him at 5 and then again at 7.  If you see the DF is causing more harm than good, then clusterfeeding may be an alternative.

Additional question -- is it okay to use some calm A time after he wakes to stretch the time before the next feed when he's not acting hungry (otherwise, w/days w/short EA time, he is closer to a 3 hr routine)?

Absolutely!! 

- Beca 

[ccg01]

As a former Scottish dancer who really enjoyed the jig, I appreciate the enthusiasm and dance reference!!

So, fingers crossed....DS slept until 6 this morning! He babbled til close to 6:30. Had a dirty diaper and was hungry so we didn't try to get him back to sleep. So... much much progress. DH was also able to extend 2 naps slightly with shushing.

Thank you for the answers/advice!

Our new one: he is really showing sleep cues early each cycle... any suggestions on when to try to stretch him before a nap and when to put him to bed? We are thinking of working on just one A period a day to start. He's definitely on something closer to a 3 hr EASY now... although he can be stretched out to 3.5 or 4 on food (we know from earlier experiences), he's having a hard time staying awake for anything approaching a decent A time. Is this normal? He seems quite healthy, etc, plays normally, just gets sleepy fast over the last few days.

[rebecaq]

That may be a growth spurt. It's very normal for 5 months and it would explain why he's been a little out of sorts in the sleeping department. Let him be for a few days and if he still gets sleepy quickly you can strech him out with the mellow A time you mentioned before 

Hee hee hee, now I wish I could really dance a jig, but compared to a former Scottish dance i think I'll make a fool of myself. How about some merengue or salsa? LOL That's more up my alley 

- Beca

[ccg01]

hi Beca,

Hope you still have your dancing shoes -- he slept til 6:05 this morning! Woke up babbling. We got him out of the crib at 6:25.

So... this morning's oddity, which has not happened before, and which we'd love your (& others') take on it....

E 6:30
A 6:30-7:45
S 7:45-8:20! He never takes a nap that short unless it is a catnap. This particular nap is usually 1 hr 20 min or so (for the last four or five days or more). DH tried pu/pd w/him but DS was wide awake, "talking," holding himself up and away looking around during the pu phase... no getting him back to sleep! 

DS had been showing his sleep cues, glazed look in his eyes, fussing, etc. for about 15 minutes before we put him to bed for the nap.

So.... thoughts? DH got him up after it was clear he wasn't going back to sleep and was in such an alert, happy state, but that sure is throwing us for a loop... what's the thing to do in a case like this or do we just go on & see how the day goes?

This is what happened next:
A: 8:20
E: 9:30
A: 9:50
S: 10:25-12:30 (had to wake him)
E: 12:30 - 10 oz formula!! (sort of supports the growth spurt notion)

Thank you!!

[ccg01]

Thought I'd share our update. Perhaps it will encourage others and as always, I'm happy to get any advice on the areas that still seem confusing!

At least at night, EASY seems to be working! (knock, knock, knock on wood.) DS has slept from bedtime (other than a brief waking at the dream feed) through til 6 or 6:30... for more than a week (knocking on wood).

We are pretty sure he had a growth spurt last week, judging from change in amount of food he took in (at least for the bottles, he's also breastfed part of the time)... and he's definitely making development progress -- sitting, making a "ba ba" sound and rolling back to front have all occured in last few days!! Big stuff coinciding w/the 5 months mark for him.

Naps are still hard to figure out. He's taking 1 hr to 1 1/2 hr naps most times, even w/pu/pd he's not seeming to go much past that range. He seems to wake quite happy, but is getting tired pretty easily, so he's pretty much on a (slightly longer than) 3.25 hr EASY. Also, he is tiring quickly after feeding after he wakes in the morning. On the plus side, most times he is going past the 45 minute nap monster and sleeping at least an hour (this is a change for the better).

Thoughts? Is this something that will sort itself out over time or do we need to actively work on a transition?

Thanks to all for the encouragement and to Beca especially!

[rebecaq]

Beth,

You are so sweet! Thank you 

Sounds like things have really improved! That's wonderful!!

I think since he's coming out of a growth spurt and probably still getting used to things it's not strange that he's on 3.25 EASY.  I recommend that you keep things the way they are the remainder of this week and then try scooting him up for 5 mins increments every few days.  This usually works wonders and will probably also help naps out. But don't worry about the naps too much. 1 -1.5 hours is good right now, especially after the 45 mins ones 

I'm so happy to hear things are going  well!!

- Beca 

[ccg01]

Beca,

Things really have improved. His naps are still a bit erratic (we get one that is only 30 or 40 minutes every so often), but much better in general. He's still on about a 3.5 hr EASY, although on days when he is cranky it can slip to shorter, days when he is happy seem to go a bit longer between feeds easily. We did have one night waking (took us over an hour to get him back to sleep, ugh), but really think, upon further reflection, that we went in before he'd finished all his own trying to settle efforts (thus waking him fully).

Just wanted to say thanks again!! (I'm sure we'll be back w/questions as he gets older) and I want to offer encouragement for those who are trying to get their LOs onto EASY. It is so worth the work!!! We now have a happier little boy who almost always can get himself to sleep. That idea was a mere dream a month or so ago!!!

Beth

[rebecaq]

Beth,

I am so pleased to hear that things have improved so much for your family!  We all have days when we're out of sorts, so don't stress too much over them. Last night Santiago woke and took about 7 tries to have him calmed and in his crib on his own.  Just goes to show ya! 

I'm so happy I was able to help you through this 

Hope to hear from you soon, but maybe not here on EASY but just around the site!

Take care

- Beca