8 mth old - constant night waking and sleep troubles

[Jmb2008]

Bec - i was looking back at the easy you posted and was noticing it was a shorter A before bed.  Is this usually the case?  Though i guess dependent too on how long naps are?

Yes, it does depend a little on how long naps are, but I'm going off my own experience that if I get two good long A times in first up, DS only needs a shorter A to BT - he's had the long A times to play and get 'tired' enough, he's had the restorative naps and he's had a 12hr day and his body just seems to want to sleep at that point.

Right, thanks for expanding on this, Bec. I meant to say more about that, but I realized I accidentally let DD sleep 1.5 hr for her nap and needed to go wake her. I agree.

I wish I could say I accidentally let my DD sleep for too long 

[becj86]

When I do lay her down though, she often does stir and settle, so doesn't she know at that point that she's settling in her bed?

Nope! She needs to be in bed awake enough that she can look around.

What tends to work best with spiriteds?  I'm thinking maybe pu/pd as if I try to sing/ssh pat through it she will just work herself into the corner of the crib and get madder.  ?

Often, PUPD is too stimulating for spiriteds and never works for them. Frankly, I have a spirited and the only thing that works consistently is gradual withdrawal - this concept of putting LO down less and less asleep each time and settling them the last bit in bed.

So, if she freaks out, I pick her up, calm her, say phrase, then lay her down and ssh-pat.  And repeat until she settles and goes to sleep?  I see another big tantrum coming...

If you're shushing/patting, or similar when you pick her up, you're actually doing shush/pat.

Are you feeling confident in your routine now? It helps if she's just the right amount of tired when you're doing this step - not OT or UT... I don't mean you should stop but maybe this is a time to lock in a routine that works for her just to help you along a bit.

EW can be UT or OT - depends... I think we need to see her EASY again

[Jmb2008]

Ok, so what you're saying is that I should be patient and let her settle into what we're doing right now?  Oh, patience.  I see what you mean though.  I could be more confident with her routine (especially with the EW) and give her more time to adjust as well. 

I guess gradual withdrawal is kind of what I've been doing, right?  As following her mood, like this morning, I can once in awhile get to that drowsy/awake lay down.  So I will continue to do that.  And if it's a fail, just pick her up and try again.  I am confident in doing that.

Here's yesterday:

Awake 7ish, heard at 7:17
E - 7:20, 8:30 solids
A -
S - 10:12(down drowsy, ssh-pat 5 min, helped settle 3 times in first 30ish min then left so I could sleep) - 11:27? (she woke happy)
E - 11:30, 12:30 solids
A -
S - unsettled, closed eyes 2:47. 2nd try in crib 3:00 (ssh-pat 3 min, helped settle few times) - 3:25 (woke 2 min after I left room).  She was very upset, not wanting to be awake.
E - 3:30, 5:00 supper
A - (skipped bath)
E - 6:27
A - to bedroom, diaper, pjs, stories, 7:00 to dh
S - 7:08

She was quite happy today it's only midnight now so we'll see if she decides to be awake tonight....

[becj86]

Yes, I think what you're doing is progressing along the right path, it just takes some time but I think you are confident in the knowledge of when to push it and when to stay with the status quo from one sleep to the next. Once you've successfully pushed to the next level of wakefulness for a few sleeps, that becomes the status quo and so on until you can put her down, say your sleepy phrase and walk away and she goes to sleep

I'm reading this as a 5hr stretch 7pm til midnight - yay!

[Jmb2008]

Nope, no yay . Horribleness. Not a good night for self settling. This has been our night:
Dh on duty 7-10, and in that time had to lay down 4 times, the last time with 3 tries.  He doesn't stay in the room to pat like I do.
From that point, in crib 10:01-11:30 ( with help for 40 min)
E - 11:32-11:50 (I was dozing-oops)
In crib 11:52-1:57
Settled at 2:06, in crib 2:14-3:48
E - 3:50-4:08
she was sort of awake. I had to change her, so she woke up completely.
Settled 4:55, crib 5:00-fail
Really wanting to suck, settled 5:20, in crib 5:35-? Hoping she stays till 7

She is usually quite dependent on the patting to stay down.....  Though I'd rather have her in the crib patting her butt than having to hold her

[Jmb2008]

Would a change in the day help with the EW?  Last night she was only awake 45 min before starting to settle back to sleep, which is a definite improvement though it took awhile longer before I could get her in the crib.

[becj86]

Would a change in the day help with the EW?

Quite possibly. What's your EASY look like now? Routines can vary quite a bit at this age but sometimes there can be tweaks you can see when you're not sleep deprived, happy to have a look for you. Everyone needs some external eyes for these things sometimes.

[Jmb2008]

I think the day does need tweaking, when she was doing a shorter night this didn't happen, though the circumstances are completely different too so who knows.  I think she was often unsettled at this time in bed with me too. 

This is today, which I think went quite well and had a happy baby, who is now officially on the move . When I left her with dh tonight and left the room she got upset and started pulling herself towards the door.  Uh oh.  Trouble on the loose.

I left the room about 6:20 (last lay down at 5:35) and went to bed.  I didn't hear her till 7:27 though I'm sure she'd been awake for a bit.

E-7:30, 8:30 solids
A - about 3 hrs
S - 10:16 (down drowsy)-11:30ish (woke happy).  I only helped her once at 10:56.
E-11:42, 12:45 solids
A - 3.5 hrs
S- 2:59(down just barely closing eyes) -4:04 (woke upset). Helped at 3:33.
E- 4:10, 5:45 solids
A -6:10 bath
E - 6:32 (she was very distracted, prob not too hungry since last feed was a little later)
A - to bedroom, pjs, stories, 7:00 to dh
S -7:35

[katie80]

Right, thanks for expanding on this, Bec. I meant to say more about that, but I realized I accidentally let DD sleep 1.5 hr for her nap and needed to go wake her. I agree.

I wish I could say I accidentally let my DD sleep for too long 

To be fair, she's almost 4 yr old, and I usually wake her at an hour on the days she naps, so it really was too long. But, she's not always been the best napper and I would have never thought I'd be waking her one day, so you never know.

Based on the EASY you posted for today, I think there's a chance she might be in a little UT/OT loop.  I'm not sure how this works with all the NWs, but to wake happy after 1 hr 15 min in the morning, seems UT.  Then, she did 3.5 hr A after not a full nap and gave only an hour, waking unhappy which sounds OT to me.  With another 3.5 hr to bed, I'm thinking she's still OT at bedtime and that's contributing to the NWs and most likely the EW.  I'd try to push her morning A by 15 min or so to see if you can't get a little longer nap right away.

[Jmb2008]

Uhh. This feels never ending. 

Ok, If I remember correctly, she had already reached the point of being quite upset and more or less demanding to be put to sleep.  Do I just keep pushing through that?  And she went down so nice foe her nap!  If I push past that, she will probably be a bear to put down.....

[katie80]

If you're not ready to push that one out, then I'd try to make sure not to let the middle A get too long if that first nap isn't full. That's where the OT is creeping in.

[Jmb2008]

Ok.  I see what you're saying.  I'll see what she can do tomorrow.  A full nap is 1.5-2 hrs right?  If she won't let me push her past 3 hrs for the first A, and only does 1.25 hrs S, then I'll try to put her down earlier for pm nap.  The problem then is a super long A till bedtime.  Which is the 5 hr A times we were having last week as she wouldn't go to sleep early....  In her perfect world I think her A time would be over 3 hrs though.

But first to get through the night

[becj86]

Which is the 5 hr A times we were having last week as she wouldn't go to sleep early....

She might surprise you If you get BT at the right moment, she may well sleep a long night.

[Jmb2008]

Ok, so I think our biggest stumbling block right now is our schedule.  We do have OT/UT issues and know this is interferring in her success!  I will keep working at her A time and finding her bedtime, and hopefully there wont be any more extended screaming sessions during the night and things will straighten out.  Also will try less stimulation during A times and see if she has an easier time staying down for naps.  We have had some mixed up days that have had her going to bed at 8, but no EW.....  So again thinking they are UT???

We seem to be continuing to make slow progress with what we've started.  NW haven't necessarily decreased, but how they go and how easy I can put her down seems to be getting better (most nights).  She knows what she wants and is still fighting me for the boob!   I continue to try and hold back with the shh-pat once in her crib to see how she does and that I think is slowly decreasing as well.  And laying down for naps she is going down after barely settled in my arms.  

DH has also been doing well with putting her to bed, and as it's the long weekend has continued a bit further with wakings and been ok . Yay.  Again, I need to remember that I never thought this day would come either .  And last night  she did a stretch of 12:13-3:40 in her crib, and I only helped her once briefly at  12:41!  Yay!  That seems to be the best stretch during the night.  Hopefully we will continue to see these bits of improvement and at the end of a month of this will be getting consistent longer stretches.  I can only hope

[becj86]

If you're starting to see patterns with her routine, you may like to post on EASY forum to get some pointers on tweaking there.

I'm glad she's settling easier and that DH is better able to help now - that was just a time thing for us when DS rejected DH for a while too.

There's definitely progress being made