How to create a routine for 3w boy?

[Martini~]

Dears,

I am trying to work on EASY routine from 4th day of my 4w LO life. I guess it is working quite well however my boy sleeps a lot and maybe that's why it is working out.

My schedule looks like that:
1. Feeding: 7, 10, 13, 16, 18:50/19:10 (with activity means bath between).
2. Routine works well between 10 and first night feeding.
3. Naps 1,5-2h without waking, time to get asleep 15-30min but probably because I still miss the right moment to lie him down.
4. I almost always wake him for feeding as he would take longer naps then 2h and I guess too long naps are not good during day.
5. My LO normally goes sleep at 19:30-20 and sleep well until first night feed. It usually is quick and lasts 30min, he goes sleep well afterwards (not always but oftenly). Then he wakes up for second night feed and...

Here are my questions:
- If he wakes up at 5 or later for feed should I wake him again at 7am to start the routine?
- Even if he eats at 4 or 5 he has some problems with sleep after 6... I usually keep him in bed until 7 with some help of dummy but he is not sleeping great during that time. Is it ok?
- When I feed him at 7 he is usually after feeding he is happy for small activity but I guess he tires up quickly, and then has problems with going into a nap & sometimes wakes up only after 45min. What could be the. Reason for that...?

I am more about schedules not routines so deciding what to do is a big problem for me:/ so all good advice is welcome. Maybe that's how it should be or maybe I should adjust to me baby more...?

Thanks for help!

[creations]

Sounds like you are doing great!

- If he wakes up at 5 or later for feed should I wake him again at 7am to start the routine?

It's up to you. I know in the early days I would have left mine to sleep because I would have wanted the extra time in bed myself, however mine rarely slept until 7 so I didn't have that option. If you leave him to wake naturally it may be only a short time after 7 which would be fine, if he sleep very much longer it's going to change your routine for the day and perhaps you wouldn't be happy with that. It's fine to wake him at 7 regularly every day and is what Tracy advised.

Even if he eats at 4 or 5 he has some problems with sleep after 6... I usually keep him in bed until 7 with some help of dummy but he is not sleeping great during that time. Is it ok?

This is fine. So long as he is happy/relaxed it is a good habit to teach him that the day begins at 7 and not before. If he is crying though he needs responding to (which you are are doing).

When I feed him at 7 he is usually after feeding he is happy for small activity but I guess he tires up quickly, and then has problems with going into a nap & sometimes wakes up only after 45min. What could be the. Reason for that...?

Well, he is very young so it is not so easy for me to say why he short naps for his first nap. He might be a little UT (under tired) if he has good night sleep and naps, or it could just be he hasn't learned to sleep longer for this nap yet.

I think with a baby you do need to have some flexibility but it's all about balance between what you need and what baby needs.  There will be times you don't get it your way at all, like when he is teething and awake almost all night!  However babies love routine so actually so long as you find a suitable routine for your LO then it will also be great for you as you will know just where you are in terms of naps and feeds and what to expect in the day.

hope this helps.

[Martini~]

Hi Creations,

Thank you for help and advice. Have more questions as the time goes by and Frank is already 5wo but it doesn't mean it is easier:).
1. After couple of days with wakings at 2-3am and 5-6am (small feed) and me waking him at 7am, he set himself a new routine. My boy now sleeps 7-8h without feed at night! From 7:30/8:00 till 3-4 am. Then he wakes up close to 7am for first day feed. So it works almost great for me. He still cannot sleep well between 5:30-7:00 but he doesn't cry, only moves very dynamically in his bassinet. I guess he has some stomach problems as he makes a massive poo:) at 7am just after feed, when the last one is done on 1-4pm last day.
2. My first big problem is still a first nap. For last 3w there are two scenarios:
- he is very fussy but awake until approx. 8:40 when he finally settles for a 1:20 nap; I thought that he is so fussy as is OT, but when I settle him at 7:50-8:00 he settles wel but... Sleeps always only 45min and then wakes with massive cry:/ cannot stop crying for 30-50min and then he goes for another short nap (20-30) probably tired after hour-cry or... Like today he cries 30min and then he is happy and alert (from 9:30-10:00).
3. Last week he had an afternoon drama... 6 out of 7 evenings he is crying for about an hour from 5:30 till 6:30pm. Sometimes he sleep in-between for 20-40min up to an hour in good days. Some days he doesn't sleep at all, only crying.
4. What is amazing he totally calm down after evening feed and bathtime and settles very well to his night sleep. I see that when he is sleeping min an hour or so before bathtime as we are successful with settling him down, he goes for his night sleep without even out assistance. When he doesn't sleep at all in the afternoon, it goes worse but still he settles in max 20-30min. And he never ever wakes up before 3-4am.

Do you have any ideas what is wrong with his nap in the morning and No-Nap in the afternoon? Is it a wrongly working routine?
If he wakes up after 45min, can he be UT? But would he be crying then...?
He also never wakes up by himself at 1am, I always wake him up. Maybe he is missing one longer nap a day?

[creations]

Great to hear he's started sleeping through the night (5hr+ between feeds)
1. I don't think there is much you can do about his squirming and dozing in the early hours if he's working on a poo. Gradually as they get older they are able to go through the night without pooing, it just sounds like he's working on that if he is waiting for a poo until he gets up in the morning.
2. I would try for a nap at 8.15am if he is getting up at 7am.  It looks like your two scenarios are to nap at either 8am (prob too early) or 8.40 (prob too late).  When mine was older he would cry after waking at 40 mins from an UT nap, not tired enough to transition alone but too tired to be happy.  Not all babies wake happy from an UT nap if they still feel very tired.
3. Could you post your EAS time in this format
WU 7.00
E 7.00
A 1hr 15
S 8.15 - 9.45 (1hr 30)
E 10.00
etc so I can have a look at a real day or a couple of days to see what may be happening with the afternoon/evening naps. I would need to see the full day including any NWs from the night before or if he is dozing or fussing before the 7am WU.  Thanks.
4. Sounds like he is getting a bit OT if he doesn't get his nap before bath time. You're still able to settle him for BT although it takes longer to calm him from the OT, it sounds like he is very happy to be going to bed. It could be that an EBT would work well on the days he doesn't nap so well before his bath so that he is less OT for BT.  I'll look at your full day and let you know what I think.  I'll also be able to see that capped nap at 1pm if you make a note of it by that time on your EASY.

[Martini~]

Hi,

Firstly maybe some words about my LO. He was a great sleeper from birth, first 24h ate 3 times.... Then in his first 2-3 weeks I had to wake him for every single feed, and encouraging him to make a feed longer then 5-10min as he was sucking very shortly. That's why probably he is get used to be active after nursing. However after tiring him much with long feeding, he got problems with going into sleep again and settling him took 45min to 1,5h. His 4th week was better, only 1 feed a day could be difficult. And not after 5w, he is quite active during every feed.

Almost from the begining we have 7 feeds a day, as he sleept 5+ hours after his last feed of the day at 7pm. As I was waking him up during the day every 3h, I decided to let him sleep during the night how long he wanted. He was waking hungry for his night feed what made me less stressed (during the day I was very stressed if he ate enough, waken from his nap).
We haven't done cluster feeding & dream feed - mostly because feeding him after 3h was difficult, not to mention shorter periods of time like 2-2.5h.

And now our EASY:

WU 6:30- 6:50 - by himself

E: 7-7:30 - lasts about 30minutes, both sides, he is still quite lazy
A: 20min - he yaws just after feeding, difficult to catch his right A time
S: 8:00 or later depending on his WU, 45min nap or longer if I manage to resettle him after 45min nap (sometimes successful)

E: 10:00 (by himself as his first nap is short; sometimes 10-15min later if I managed to resettle him for short nap before 10)
A: up to 11:00 (then about  (about 15-30minutes to settle him)
S: 11:15/11:30 - 13:00

E: 13:00 (almost always waken by me)
A: up to 14:00/14:30 - we start stroller walk at about 14:00, he is calm and settles very well but he chooses his moment by himself
S: 14:30 - 16:00 - in a stroller

E: 16:00
A: up to 16:45 - he is getting fussy very quickly
S: 50% NO at all and 50% 17:30/18:00 - 18:45... depending if I manage to settle him for a nap what takes min 45min to 1h

E: 18:45
A: Bath 15min
E: 19:15 - 19:30
S: 19:45/20:00 - settles well (about 15-20minutes but without much crying)

NIGHT FEED: 4 am (today 2 am, I guess he may go through 6w GS).
5:00/5:30 - 7:00 very light sleep, sometimes needs some resettling like prop, correct the swaddle, rock him in Moses

WU once again:)

[creations]

Where is he sleeping?  Are all naps in his cot apart from the stroller walk at 2pm?

[Martini~]

Night in Moses near our bed, first nap mainly in the same Moses. But during the weekend he sometimes sleeps in his crib. Ten 2nd nap in his crib in his room, 3rd nap in stroller, 4rd nap also in his crib.

[Martini~]

Some more comments:
- I guess we are currently (from yesterday night...) going through the growth spurt as he is hungry all the time, woke up dozen of times during last night & seems to be more alert of everything
- I think I will try to increase his A time to 1:05-1:10. After couple of last days I think he is ready. For last days out rutine is working but he has been waking from almost his every nap.
Is wind down a part of A time? As I wrote in General Sleep Issues, I never managed to do proper winddown... Instead of calming him down, he seems to me more alert after swaddling...:/.
- You asked/suggested different time for settle LO in the morning. The case is that I never now how long settling will last, so I never now how long his nap will last... generally I would like his all A times to be about 1h, then about 15min to settle and sleep for about 1:45 but it doesn't happen too often.

I start to think about him as a Spirited baby... He is dynamic in his movement, loud when playing and especially in last days interested in everything around him! Probably it will make settling a routine even more difficult.

[creations]

Yes wind down is counted as part of A time. A is everything from the moment he is awake to the moment he sleeps. I know it can be hard to judge how long it will take to settle for sleep, just do your best. He's still really young so there is likely going to be a level of unpredictability for a while yet and actually although things don't seem quite right at the beginning and end of the day you are doing great to be getting those good naps during the day.

Other than him being young and possibly spirited there is nothing jumping out at me with your routine so I'm asking if any other mod is available to have a look, see if I overlooked something. Bare with me it may be a couple of days. Meanwhile continue with the additional feeds through the growth spurt - GS can also throw routine off as some LOs are more tired.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

If you are in a growth spurt right now I would go by baby's cues for feeding and sleep as they need to feed more and sometimes sleep more during a growth spurt. Up until now have you been watching his cues or just going by the clock? Either way can work, but it depends on the baby, they change so often during the first weeks and months that it is often simpler to go by cues and judge the time approximately as they will not usually conform to what you want (most especially if you have a spirited one!).

[Shdef]

If you are in a growth spurt right now I would go by baby's cues for feeding and sleep as they need to feed more and sometimes sleep more during a growth spurt. Up until now have you been watching his cues or just going by the clock? Either way can work, but it depends on the baby, they change so often during the first weeks and months that it is often simpler to go by cues and judge the time approximately as they will not usually conform to what you want (most especially if you have a spirited one!).

Yeah, this! If you are breast feeding, the milk supply also needs to adjust according to LO's needs.

You could take note as to when he gets tired after wake-up and then either start wind down later or earlier. I swaddle DS as well, and he is more alert for a while, so I hold him until he is tired again and then put him down. The swaddling itself wakes him up, but he does sleep better when he is all snug

A-times and naps change very quickly at that age. At 6 weeks, my DS had 12 hour nights and only two very long naps. Now he has 13 hour nights (with feeds) and four VERY short naps. In two weeks it will all be different again. 

Don't stress AT ALL, just try and keep EAS going and go with his cues, don't let him scream or get worked up in any way if you can prevent it.

[Martini~]

Thank you girls for you advice. F is now 6wo and we are still facing the same problems, but it gets better I guess.
Our EASY is as posted before. First nap is still strange, he sleeps roughly for 1:30 but this nap is often disturbed. I know now how to resettle him (magic White Noise) so we manage to have those naps longer, but still I feel like I am doing something wrongly.

Would have some questions, if you manage to help me, I would be so much grateful!

1. We settle him for night sleep at 7:15-7:30pm and he generally is asleep within 10-15min. He wakes for a NF once! at about 4am and then sleeps till 6:00-6:30 where he start to fuss. It's not hunger as I tried couple of times feeding but he is not eating very eagerly... Instead of feeding, I can resettle him to sleep longer. The question is what is the best time to start the day for him if he eats his last meal at 7:00-7:15pm? He is a great sleeper and takes about 11h of night sleep & additional 6 during day. The other argument is that he IS hungry usually before 10am, so even when waking later, I could get on track with him.

2. For how long nap during the day I should let so not to disturb his night sleep? Quite often his nap between 11am-1pm could be longer... we managed max of 2:15, as I wake him afterwards. At 1pm he is not really hungry and it's a nightmare for me to wake him for feed.

3. I still struggle with ideas for his afternoon. From 4pm till BT he sleeps about 30-45min and I cannot resettle him for a longer nap. Additionally he is so fussy:( not crying as hell already as I found white noise & manage to settle him for a short nap, but still it's not a great A time.... Currently from 4 till 6 we manage like below:
E 4pm
A 4:30-5:15pm (20-25min of being active & another 20-25min of WD in his crib - he is crying when we do something more then that, but when I settle him, he just lie in his crib with eyes wide open)
S 5:15-6pm/ 45min max!
A 6-6:40 but generally very fussy time
E 6:40pm - 20min
A Bath 15min
E 7:15 pm - 15min
S: BT - 7:30
Maybe I should feed him just after his catnap, allow him for low-stimulating activity finished with bath which he LOVES:) and then feed him at 7:15pm after bath once again? Longer pause between feeds should allow him to take more food?

4. General questions about A times. Should every A be the same in time like 1-1:15h at his age?

I would appreciate any kind of advice!

Ps. Creations, I opened topic in General Sleep Issues about white noise & learning infants IS. I know that you have some experience with ST, so could you please help & give some wise advice:)? Thank you so much in advance!

[creations]

I think I would be tempted to increase the first A time a little (maybe 10 mins) and see if that nap can move a bit later, then at the end of the day bring everything earlier making bath time much earlier and possibly allow a slightly longer bath if he enjoys it, but mainly bring it earlier to bring BT earlier.
If the last A time is too long and he is fussy and unhappy I'd just get him into bed for the night, say 6.30 to 7pm.

I wouldn't have him sleep much beyond the 2hrs nap from 11 - 1pm.  Do you think this nap is going so well because he is in his cot on his own room perhaps?  Just wondering because mine used to sleep in the travel cot in the living room for naps but at 10 wks old he made it very clear he wouldn't sleep there any more and wanted to be put in his night bed.  I know they seem young so have an opinion but mine certainly had his own ideas and preferences at that age.  What if you tried all naps in his cot?

Not every A time needs to be exactly the same length, you'd be looking for roughly that as a guidance but some show a preference for a shorter first A time (with the others a bit longer) and some for a longer first A time (with the others a bit shorter).

[Martini~]

Oh God, what a morning! I start to hate them:/. They ruin my day and any routine I have in plan:(.

Today he WU at 7:20 (with my help). I have extended first A to 1:15-1:20 so put him down at 8:35 and he drifted nicely and quickly at 8:40. After 15 min from putting him into bed, I turned off white noise. At 9:05 he woke, I resettled quickly. Then he woke at 9:15 and I couldn't resettle, he just wasn't sleepy enough. I took him out of the crib at 9:40 and we had small activity, he was happy. At 10 I gave him food, and from 10:20 to 10:30 I did small activity but he was so sleepy (he was awake from 9:15-9:20 without a proper nap before!). He drifted off quickly but woke up at 11:05, 7min after turning off WN. Thanks God, shhh/pat & WN once again helped as he was crying when asleep. Turned off WN. At 11:15 he once again woke up and I am still trying to resettle. He is lying in his crib, no cry, eyes closes/eyes open, jolting every couple of minutes... I only keep my hand on him to HTTJ and WN is on. Does it look like UT or OT?

Regarding the routine, I cannot/don't want to make everything earlier during the day as bath is done by DH and that's his only moment with DS. I thought about waking him later as he can sleep until 7:30 or maybe even later if I don't wake him. But I am not quite sure if that's a good idea as my last idea is that he is sleeping too long at nights so then he doesn't need so much sleep during first nap. On the other hand, he cannot cope with activity longer than 1:15-1:20 as is too young for that.

You may be right that he sleeps well in his crib not bassinete so I now make all his naps (except from one in a stroller) in crib. However he sleeps during night in bassinete and he sleeps well.

I have also problem with his eating, as he eats NF at 4:00-5:00am (he takes a lot here!) and then he is not hungry at all at 7-7:30. But he is hungry at 10 and I guess sometimes like yesterday he woke up close to 10 from his nap because of hunger. If he doesn't eat properly at 7:00/7:30 I usually try to feed him once again at 8:00-8:30 but I am not proud of EAEAS routine:(. Maybe I should try DF...? Or maybe I should give him pumped milk from bottle at 4-6am with approx 3oz/90ml or even less so to make him hungry at 7/7:30? He is already eating only 6/24h - 5x a day (i treat as one feed milk before/after bath) and once at night but he gains weight very nicely (+240g/week - from yesterday).

Oh God, what a day. 11:45 and I am still sitting in his room and he jolts every 10min. He he is asleep I guess for good 29min but it's not a deep sleep I guess:(.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

What are you using for white noise? Is it possible to leave it on but at a low level instead of turning it off? We keeps ours on for the whole sleep. Is the room darkened?