We've lost our EASY at 5 months adjusted

[Kiwi_one]

DD3 has been our easiest baby since we got her home from the NICU -- doing a 4hr EASY with long naps (much higher sleep-needs than my other girls), getting to sleep independently, gaining weight (FF), and generally being happy and cruisy -- but recently our routine's gone to pot and the past two days have been the worst for her ever! With morning sickness due to kick in soon, I'd really like to get it under control before DH is flying solo in the evenings.

I think the last time EASY was working well our day was looking like this:

E   140ml
A  ~1.5hr
S  2-3 hours

E   140ml
A  ~2hr
S  2-3 hours

E  140ml
A 1hr
S 1hr

E  maybe not a full bottle
A 1hr
S - Bedtime
E  an hour later, 70-100ml or so, treated as a NF and straight back to bed

1x NF

She was going down, swaddled with the dummy, independently each time with perhaps a couple of replugs but no major trouble.

In hindsight, she'd had a lot more NWs for a while, then I think she shortened the first A to 1hr after we'd gone away over the weekend, and then suddenly started struggling to fall asleep at bedtime. She had a GS lately but that's definitely ended; she barely took 3 full bottles yesterday, although it improved today. I thought perhaps she was getting too much daysleep/not enough A time, so I've been attempting a more textbook 5-month routine the past couple of days and it's just made matters worse! Today looked like this:

NF  330 - 100ml

Up 705
E  730  - 110ml
A  - carried around for much of it to keep her happy, to stretch out the first A so she wasn't using the first nap to extend her night sleep
S   835-1045 -- capped as per my trial routine

E  1045 - 100ml
A  - library
S  1300-1430 (tried to extend by replugging but up at 1445. 90min is a short nap for her)

E   1445 - 140ml
A   carried for second half to keep her happy
S   1650-1735 (woke crying at 45min, whereas she'd usually only wake after 1hr)

A
E  1800 - 70ml
A
S  tried down 1820 as rubbing her eyes; quiet at first then the screaming started. 1840  - rocked to sleep to avoid a horrible OT mess tomorrow. Woke 1845, rocked again, S by 1855.

She's learnt to roll recently. No sign of teething. She's been back on reflux meds for a month after a fussy month off randitidine.

I'm not sure what the next step is. Should I go back more to our old routine, trying to extend the first A back to 1.5hr (so the first nap is a nap not night sleep) but give up on capping naps and making any other changes?

[Kiwi_one]

1 NF at 2:45am and then 3-4 wakings where I went in and replugged. Up for the day at 7am. Any suggestions? I can't keep this up.

[clazzat]

I'm a little rusty on 5m routines, but my first thought is that perhaps the dummy could be the problem. My ds was about this age when it started to become a prop, and I found that he was waking several times during the night and then naps started to suffer. We weaned it cold turkey - so hard! - and then he went back to sleeping the way he had been without any routine tweaks.

[Kiwi_one]

I did wonder whether perhaps the dummy was becoming a problem but I didn't think it would cause trouble getting to sleep at bedtime as an early symptom? which is why I was leaning more toward a routine problem or something else -- the developmental milestone perhaps, or maybe anaemia since she was prem.

We weaned cold turkey with DD1 at 4 months to allow us to do PUPD but I wouldn't think we need to sleep train Zelie when she has a history of independent sleep. Fingers crossed!

I stretched out the first A to 1:30 this morning and we got a 2.5hr nap which she woke from her usual happy self She only lasted 1:45 for the next A though before she was grizzly and screechy and doing lots of eye-rubbing.

[clazzat]

Maybe it is routine, then. I guess you're probably best to carry on and see how it goes.

The reason it could cause problems with getting to sleep at bt, though, is if she was ot from not being able to get through her naps properly. I guess they all present differently!

[Ima shel Alon]

It looks to me like you are doing great! Even though you are stretching her A times she is still napping well and that's very good, IMO. Usually when one tweaks the routine either the naps or the nights (or both if you are unlucky) are effected. I would try and stick to what you did in the past few days for a few more days and see if the nights are getting better.
I actually think that if you increase the A time gradually to prevent Ot then she would be able, slowly of course, to handle more than she handles now. And it does look like a lot of day sleep to me, but maybe I am wrong .

[Kiwi_one]

The reason it could cause problems with getting to sleep at bt, though, is if she was ot from not being able to get through her naps properly. I guess they all present differently!

Ah, right. It doesn't seem to bother her at transition times, so my guess is that it's not a prop issue. But time will tell.

Ima (sorry, I don't know your name!), it does seem like a lot of day sleep to me too but she's always been higher sleep needs than my other two so I can't be sure that it's too much for her. On the average day sleep page, I read the other day that at 4-6 months Tracy expected 2 x 2-3hr naps or 2 x 2hr naps + 1hr CN. My past experience is that those average sleep amounts are high but it does suggest that it's possible 5-6hrs day sleep is still some form of normal.

I pretty much came to the same conclusion you did -- try to extend A times as long as naps don't go completely to pot. She actually got off to sleep without rocking her in my arms yesterday (I hate using props!) but had been blowing raspberries first so I'm going to try a little more A-time before bed. Today so far:

~~Thursday 18th~~

Up 0730
E  0740  -- 140ml
A  - tried to encourage rolling
S  0900-1030  (woke at 1010 and didn't really resettle with dummy)

A  1030
E  1200 - 120ml
A  - pear late in A time
S   1255-1555

A  bath
E  1630 -- 70ml
A  - encouraged rolling
E  1700  -- 70ml
A
S   1745-_____

Hm, that CN just went over the hour mark so going to go get her and we'll see how bedtime goes in 1:15. She will have done 7hrs A and 5.5hrs of naps today.
 

[Ima shel Alon]

You are right, she could be high sleep needs and she could be doing well with so much day sleep, but I think that if in the next few days/week your nights are getting harder then it's maybe a sign, yk?
But like I said before, it sounds like you are doing great all ready! WTG

[Kiwi_one]

Yes, I'll definitely be keeping the amount of day sleep in mind. And the potential issue with the dummy.

Last night seemed to start off well but went downhill. Other than a little tummy time early on, it was a very low key last A of 1:10. She fell asleep within a couple of minutes (with white noise -- a recent addition -- and dummy) at 2000, woke after about ten minutes but went back off in a couple of minutes again. Then NW/NFs looked like this:

NW 2110 - replugged
NW 2120 - replugged.
NF 0115 - full bottle
NWs from 0545-0645 (she was resettling but never for long)
Decided to feed at 0645, I think she took a full bottle
More replugs till 0700.

And she's finally finishing off her night now.

I'm confused. It started off looking OT if anything at bedtime but then with the spat of early-morning NWs. She might have been holding off for another feed, I suppose, but does it suggest something else? I did try to leave her to settle without the dummy one time and she does try to mantra herself back to sleep. When I went in after nearly 10 minutes, the blanket seemed to be over her face a bit so she might have been able to settle herself if not for that. If it *is* partly a prop issue, I'd want to wean the dummy over the weekend but I also want to be sure before resorting to such drastic measures!

[clazzat]

Is she teething?

[Kiwi_one]

I don't think so.

What would it look like if they went down OT from the last A but UT from the overall day?

[clazzat]

Ot from the last a in this house has always shown as screaming 45 minutes after going to sleep and only settling with a feed or rocking. I would think that ut from the whole day would probably present as unsettled overnight - nws or not really able to stay asleep for the last hour before wu.

[Ima shel Alon]

^^^This.
TBH I am confused I can't decide if it's the paci or routine. IIWY and would want to keep the paci as long as possible then I would go and tweak the routine. We already said that her A times are very short for her age and that she has plenty of day sleep so I would rather put my bet on her A times causing the disrupted night than the paci.

[Kiwi_one]

Well, the good news is that she's been going down great at night with the longer A times Yay for no props and having the evening back! The not-so-good is that we're still having loads of NWs, easily settled with the dummy. So we'll keep working on the overall A time and I'll let you lovely ladies know how we're getting on. I remembered what her newborn routine was like -- the fact that she only managed 45min A x 4 a day -- so I don't want to push her too fast.

I do think her reflux isn't as well controlled as it ought to be, too, so we'll try slippery elm next week.

[clazzat]

Reflux can make things a lot more difficult at random times - I know that my two who had reflux were generally find for naps but bad overnight.

[Kiwi_one]

Good to know. DD1 had a bit of reflux too but had outgrown it by now and before sleep training so we've not really done this before.

Z's routine got mixed up today going out to church -- one hour of day sleep became an extra hour of A time -- and boy did we know it at bedtime! It took an hour to get her off, even with rocking. So now I know what OT at bedtime looks like Such a pity because last night was better for NWs. Hopefully we can get back on track tomorrow.

[Kiwi_one]

Things seemed to be settling down after extending the A times a bit but we've had a horrible week or more of bedtimes again lately. I can't figure it out. Her EASY today looked like this:


Woken 0720 for Mass
E 0740 -- 220ml
A - rice, meds   (2:30)
S 0950-1120 (1.5hrs)

E -- 200ml
A - veggies (2:15)
S 1335-1535 (woken, 2hrs)

A
E
A (2:15)
S 1750-1835 (woken, 45min)

A
E
A (1:10)
S 1945 -- went straight to sleep without a peep but woke 30 minutes later. DH has spent the last half hour in there with her and hopefully she's finally asleep again.

Yesterday was similar, A times of 2:30 (2hr nap), 2:15 (1.5hr nap), 2 (45min CN), and 1:30 and it took 45 minutes to get her to sleep at bedtime but then she stayed asleep.

The few days before that I think her A times had crept shorter again and she'd finally get to sleep at bedtime only to wake a short while later seemingly disinterested in sleep, as though she thought she'd just had a nap. Which is why I've been pushing it with the A times again.

[Ima shel Alon]

I think you said before that she is high on sleep needs right?
Either way, even a high sleep needs baby needs more A times as he grows and less day sleep, and it sounds to me that's the case with her as well.
I would work on increasing her A times and when they are higher on getting rid of the CN.

[Kiwi_one]

So you think the long naps are more indicative of her need for sleep than of having the A times right?
Will keep trying to push her with the A times.

[Ima shel Alon]

Sometimes even when having good naps baby still needs an A increase and there will be other signs rather than short naps, like long and difficult to settle NW, EW, difficult to put down at BT and for naps.