Taking Time to Sleep but not Crying

[mommyoftwo]

When my DD (11 wks) naps, sometimes it takes her a while to go to sleep (30 to 45 min).  However, she doesn't cry.  Sometimes, she does make little noises and sucks her fists after she spits or her paci falls out.  Should I let her be and not intervene?  Sometimes she does the same thing at night.  Is she just trying to settle?  Should I be doing something different?

[RachelC]

Sounds like she's doing a great job at independant sleep!  How long does her nap last (from when you lay her down to when she wakes up)?  Is she happy when she wakes?  If she's happy and getting enough sleep, I would leave her.
~Rachel

[mommyoftwo]

Thanks Rachel. 

She's on a 3 (sometimes 3 1/2) hour routine.  So, depending on her sleep cues, she gets anywhere from 1 1/2 to 2 hours or longer naps.  Also, sometimes she wakes up from the 45 min sleep cycle and she just lays there, making little noises but not crying.  Sometimes, she also wakes up grumpy.  I know then, that her sleep might have been fitful because it takes her a while to go back down.  If she is learning to self sooth even if it takes her a while to go back to sleep, I should just leave her to it then?

[RachelC]

I would leave her, unless she is out and out crying.  Sounds like you've got a self soother !  Good for your lo!
~Rachel

[mommyoftwo]

I must say thank Gaaaad!  She was so dependent on the paci that I started weaning her gently from it 1 1/2 week ago.  I must have done something right because she doesn't ask for it that much anymore when it falls out even when she is still awake in her crib trying to settle or sometimes she just spits it out.  I wait until she cries (real cry not the phantom one) for it before I give it back to her now and that's become less and less these days.  I hope she keeps self soothing herself.  It does bug me though when I hear her (and I know she's not asleep yet) and I can't help her because she has to do it by herself.

Another question:  if sometimes it takes her a while to go back down, should I extend her nap time to go over maybe 30 min into her next routine/feed?  Because she'd still be asleep when her next feeding comes.

[RachelC]

At this age, I would keep the feedings no more than 3.5hrs apart.
~Rachel

[debo620]

Mommyoftwo,
Just wondering about this self soothing thing. My son is also 11weeks old, he found his hands about 3 weeks ago. At bedtime I am able to lay him in his crib and swaddle him there. Sometimes he gets his hands out and sucks for awhile and will evntually fall asleep. I also hear him in the middle of the night and he does the same thing. Unfortunately the naps are a bit different. I have been trying to do the 4s windown---really in an effort to overcome 45minute naps. For naps, I now swaddle him up--walk around the house a bit, sit in his chair---he now seems to be falling asleep in my arms----so I quickly put him down.  I feel that somehow we have regressed because he really is not self soothing during the day. I have noticed that during the day if he wakes early out of his nap he will get out of his swaddle, suck for awhile and then start crying 5min later. If he does start crying I now have to go in and ssh-pat him to sleep (if it works).

I am totally confused as to whether I should still be swaddling? It does seem to calm him if he is overtired but I do not want to keep him from learning to self sooth.
If you daughter lays self soothing for 30-40 minutes, how long is her total nap time? Do you swaddle?What is your winddown?

Thanks, Deborah

[KellyC]

Mommyoftow - sounds like you have a good little sleeper there!  If she's happy in her crib for a very long time before she falls asleep though I wonder whether she's ready to stretch her A time a bit.  What do you think, where are you currently?

Deborah - we swaddled until Zander was just over 4 months old.  To begin with we left one arm out of the swaddle (we tried this when he first found his hands at around the age of your LO but he couldn't do it consistently enough and it disturbed him more than anything so we left it a while).  A few weeks later we took the second arm out and put him in a sleeping bag.  Does your LO have a dummy?  We didn't take Zander's arm out until we took the dummy away.

Kelly x

[naunmom]

Hi mommyoftwo,
My dd is around the same age as yours (12 wks), but I am having a hard time with getting her on EASY.  Can you post your day as a sample for me?
Thanks!

[mommyoftwo]

Hi Deborah.  First of.... I'd like to invite you to the Jan/Feb 06 forum in the EASY Forum under Birth Clubs.  Here's the link.  I hope it works... https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52322.0

There's maybe 10 of us there just posting whatever comes to mind.  There's also lots of support there so, I'd reccommend checking it out.

My DD hasn't been swaddled since she was about 3 weeks and, she is also a tummy sleeper.  She had so much gas that the only way for her to have some sort of sleep was to sleep on her tummy.  I also suspected that she had reflux.  She is almost out growing her tummy issues.  She became dependent on the paci because I wanted her to focus on something else other than her pain.  In hind sight, I should have kept the swaddling.  I thought she didn't like it... but, it was just her pain.  

In any event, I'd keep swaddling him if it soothes him.  But maybe keep one arm out so that he can learn to suck his thumb/fingers efficiently.  At this age, babies really need help in soothing and the swaddle is part of it.  Initially, I had some challenges with the 45 min sleep cycles during her naps.  Now, it has somewhat tapered off (except the occassional last PM nap.  I have to help her there).  I always gave her the paci when she woke up after the 45 min mark and just stayed with her as well as placing my hand on her back.  I also do the 'wake to sleep' method (which basically me putting the paci in her mouth).  Also, I try to put her down when she is in stage 3 -- when she is really sleepy -- like almost drifting off to sleep.  I read in Tracy's book (p. 178) that putting her down on stage 3 is the best way to help her develop self soothing skills to go to sleep.  So, I try to shoot for this.  It's an art, let me tell you.  Also, I found that the shh/pat didn't work for me.  It was just way too hard and my DD didn't seem to take to it.  Instead, I do a combination of shhh and then putting my hand on her back and stroking her head.

The actual nap times vary (that's why I was concerned and had to post this question).  In reality, she probably gets about an hour when she tries to self sooth and at other times (when she's really tired and goes to dreamland quickly and sleeps thru the 45 min cycle) about 1 1/2 to 2 hours.  I am not as worried anymore if she doesn't get that much sleep because once she has the skills to let herself go to sleep, then, there's plenty of time in the future to sleep!  I call this the 90 day transition -- just like work.  The training during the first three months will determine her future self-soothing skills.  

My winddown is basically darkening her room (she is in my arms while doing all these), closing the door, sitting in the rocking chair, giving her the paci and just sitting in the rocker anywhere from 3 to 5 min (if she is really tired, I do 2 or 3 min) and singing or talking to her in a soft quiet voice.  Sometimes, we just sit there and I don't talk at all.  Sometimes she squirms when she's ready to go to sleep so, that's another cue as if she's saying mommy, stop talking -- I just want to go to sleep in the crib.

I hope this helps.  It really can be very stressful.   Everyday is different with my DD ... still.  I see new sleeping/napping/eating/activity challenges everyday and I just always remind myself that what we are doing will be worth it in the long run.  It did for my DS and he is already 2 yrs. old and a GREAT sleeper.

Come visit us at the Jan/Feb 06 thread!!

[mommyoftwo]

Hi Ottomom, the first several weeks, her EASY was very loose because her awake time varied all the time (anywhere from 4:30 to 6:30 AM) so I always had to adjust her routine during the day (to make it a 3 hour routine).  However, I always stuck to the same time during the night (since this is the one that was most important for me to get it right initially). 

Here is her current routine (give or take 30 min.).  She is 12 lbs currently and taking on average 4 ounces of formula.

6:00 AM - Feed (still trying to get this down pat)

9:00 AM - Feed

12:00 Noon - Feed

3:00 PM - Feed

6:00 PM - Feed
6:30 - Bath
7:00 - Bedtime
 
9:00 - DF
11:00 - DF

I didn't post the activity and sleep routine because her A time is really short as she seems to be sleepy right away (maybe because she's trying to learn to self sooth and it takes her time to do that).  By the time she's done with a feed, she yawns.  So, sometimes she could just be up for 30 or 45 min (including feed) and we are off to bed.  I have also stretched her routine to 3 1/2 hours lately to see if that works since she doesn't seem hungry at the 3 hour mark.  I am currently observing how she does with this.

HTH

[mommyoftwo]

Hi there Zandersmummy, I tried to extend her A time also, but, she gets too tired and it takes her longer to settle down.  This is when she really needs the paci to get to sleep. 

I am actually dreading tomorrow.  My DH and I are going to be out town for the day and I have to leave my DD with my MIL.  And I know from experience that my DD will not be able to sleep so, my MIL will resort to giving her the paci the entire time and rocking her to sleep.  It won't do much good to explain to her (did it already before) what to do so, I am just crossing my fingers that it's not going to be that bad when I pick my DD up late tomorrow -- that is, wanting her paci and wanting to be rocked to sleep.  I am more concerned about the paci because she is almost weaned from it.  I don't want to have to go back to square one!

[debo620]

Mommyoftwo,

 I am so confused. My son happily goes down for his naps with no problems when he is not overtired. Unfortunately if he only naps for 45min in the morning--the rest of the day is helter skelter b/c he is always overtired and totally unable to fall asleep without a lot of help.  Today was such a disaster. He awoke at 6, fed him at 6:30, back to bed at 7:45--slept until 8am, back to sleeep with 40min of patt-ssh---awoke at 9:40.  was tired again by 11am, I thought I'd go out today---hoping he would sleep at the mall---probably slept all in all  40 min between the car and the stroller, back home for 12:45 pm feed. By now totally exhausted ---asleep by 1:30pm , awake at 2:25 and screaming for 1hour-inconsolable with patt-ssh----put him in the swing until next feed. bf at 3:45 pm-----now back to bed at 4:45pm with a lot of rocking in my arms---placed in bed drowsy and then I kept my hand on him---hopefullly will sleep for 45min or so.

I am completely unsure of how to handle the whole going out thing.  My son never seems to sleep on the go anymore.  He can usually only be awake for 1hour 1/2 at the most including bf, and diaper change---not enough time to go get groceries or lunch or take a walk.  I am sooo tired of staying home all day. When I do muster up the courage to go out---it only ruins the rest of the day.
I think I am going to attempt wake to sleep with tommorow am nap, not completely sure how to do it but I will try, My son has never used a paci unfortunately.
Deborah

[mommyoftwo]

Hang in there Deborah.

Quite frankly, I hardly get out of the house because I really want to get my DD's self soothing skills established first (especially since I am going back to work in 1 1/2 mths).  So, other than the occasional short trip to the store, restaurant, or to the in-laws, I am home all the time.  From personal experience, I think it's important to build the foundation to good self soothing skills and unfortunately that means staying home quite a bit.  I did the same thing with DS.  But yes, you get cabin fever and guess who I take it out on?  My DH, of course.  Thankfully he understands (well, as much as he can anyway) and I try very hard to not be so unfair to him.  If this makes you feel any better, it will be a while before I can actually take out my DD for more than 1 hour because she doesn't take to going out.  She hates the car seat and the noise outside.  That's the drawback I think from sleep training.

If your son wakes up at 6:00 AM, why not feed him then?  Why wait?  Could he be overtired by 7:45?  Seems such a long time to be awake.  Have you tried putting him down earlier?  Like maybe in 40 to 45 min (including BF time)?  How is his night sleeping?  Babies at this age usually organize their night sleeping first and then at around 3 months or so, they start organizing their daytime sleep (well, that's what I read somewhere on this forum). 

Those 45 min naps can really mess up your whole day.  The only thing I can suggest is to keep up with the shh/pat (if that's what works for you) until he goes back to sleep.  I know, it's really hard.  I had a hard time and I didn't like it at all either until I found a better way that worked for my DD and I.

Your DS just doesn't like the paci?  Have you tried offering it to him regularly?  I am not actually sure how to get a baby to accept a paci.  My two got addicted to it in no time.  There are threads under NAPS that offer support, advise, etc. on how to extend nap times.  I read through them initially (still do) when my DD was also having difficulties with sleeping, which from time to time - she still does.  HTH.

[mommyoftwo]

Also with the 'wake to sleep', you will find that you may have to do this a few times before getting it right.  It's hard to do.  I had to really observe my DD to figure out when to do it.  And I was so scared of waking her up, which happened like twice.  It was not fun.