Help sorting EASY for almost 12 week old

[LovelyLilyandJack]

My 11.5 week old swings between reasonably good naps for his age and short naps where were end up all over the place.  We were doing well on roughly 1.5 hour A times and getting 2 good naps a day.  One would generally be 45 minutes or so but he'd catch up elsewhere and I'd have to wake him from the other two.  However,  several days of the afternoon nap being the short one leading to a few OT ends to the day.  We started getting 30 minute naps so cut right back on his A time yesterday to more like 1hr to 1hr 10,  got great naps but I'm sure he was ut at night cos he struggled through every sleep transition and he usually sleeps without a peep. Today we've been trying to extend A times back to 1 hr 20 or 30 but are getting short naps again. .. . Here's how today has gone.:

WU: 6.30
E:7-7.30 (not hungry earlier - pretty sure earlier wu cos too much day sleep previous day - over 6 hours)
A: 6.30-8  (1hr 30)
S: 8 - 8.40 - I'm pretty sure he woke cos i forgot to put his white noise on repeat. Resettled by apop and then
S: 9.10 - 10.15

E: 10.20 - 10.50
A: 10.15 - 11.20. (1hr 5) Started wd early cos he looked tired and he fell straight asleep.  A time for this nap often short if first A time is 1hr 30 even after 2 hr nap.
S: 11 20 - 1.10. (1hr 50) He woke by himself.

E: 1.30 - 2
A: 1.10 - 2.30 (1hr 20)
S: 2.30 - 3.10 (40 mins)

E: 3.45 - 4.15
A: 3.10 - 4.55 (1hr 45). In sling from about 1hr 20 into A time
S: 4.55 - 5.30. He woke.  Most likely OT though woke happy.  Was cooking dinner with him in sling so may have just been loud!

E: 6 & 6.40
A:5.30 - 7.15 I'm guessing now.
S: 7.15 I hope. ..

Any thoughts on what his A time should be?  And how do i best figure it out?  Should i just pick an A time and stick to it no matter what and see what happens? It feels like we'll hit OT pretty quickly that way but on the other hand I seem to be always adjusting from a short nap but don't have a real baseline. ...

ETA: Obviously the long A time then short nap then long A time before bed isn't ideal and it's a long day for him too but that was the best we could manage today.  I usually aim for 1.5 hrs max after the cat nap - 1hr if i can manage it.  He handles OT extremely well though and is always smiling. So far too much sleep has affected nights more than not enough so I'm not too worried about it as a one off.

[Erin M]

Well, if you look here: Average A times- BOOKMARK ME! you'll see that average A times for his age is somewhere around 1.20 -- but I'll also say that at his age, so much can change by the week, or even by the day as he gets older.  And, of course, so much can mess with their sleep -- developmental changes, distraction, everything really! 

How are you feeling about his tired cues right now?  Do you find them to be fairly reliable?  Do you get good naps off of them?  I found at his age, that if my babies looked super sleepy, they would generally sleep for a good nap.  If you've found an A time that seems to work most of the time, I'd stick with that and adjust it if he seems super awake at that point (maybe off of a good long nap before that) or put him down earlier if he seems tired earlier. 

I'm guessing it would be somewhat ideal to shorten your day to closer to 12 hours -- but I also get that you have an older LO and I'm sure lots of other things going on, so if that's the best that works, that's what works. 

Let me ask -- when you were getting 30 minute naps, did you find that he was waking up fussy from them or happy?  Or was he just super alert and then fussy?  Could be some overstimulation going on too (I found with older LOs, there was always a little overstimulation going!) causing your short naps.  You could also try stretching earlier A times in the day, but not the later ones. 

In your EASY above, I'm guessing that after the 40 minute nap, you actually may have been a little late on the nap and that's why he didn't settle right away in the sling. 

If I were you, I'd probably stick with 1.30 A time and see where it gets you.  Do you get the sense he needs a longer A time first thing in the morning or later in the day or he likes them all consistent? 

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Thanks for your reply.  We had a better day yesterday. By shortening the first A time a bit he managed a slightly longer second A time and we got 2 good naps. We did 1hr 20 A time,  got 1hr 30 nap then 1hr 10 A time and had to wake him after 2 hours.  But then we went out and put him in the buggy after 1hr A time,  he fell asleep after half an hour but then only slept 30 minutes.  We walked him round for another half hour but he wouldn't go back to sleep,  just lay there staring at his blackout cover!  He was ready for a cat nap about an hour and at quarter / hour and a half later but we were a bit late for it.  He slept on me in the end though and i had to wake him after 45 minutes.  He settled for bed an hour after waking really well. 

I think he maybe prefers a shorter morning A time cos he's always so tired for his second nap even after a good morning nap.  I might try 1hr 15 A time this morning and see what that brings.  I'm getting better at reading his cues but if i wait til he's yawning or fussing I'm too late so I have to really watch him.

It's hard to say how's he wakes up cos honestly he never really cries and is generally very smiley whatever,  but i usually know he's woken from a 30 minute nap cos he's fussing.  As soon as i go up he's smiling though. OS could be an issue.  I don't give him any toys or do anything but talk to him yet really but with a 3 year old running around there's always a lot going on!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

So i tried a 1hr 15 A time first thing today and he had a 2 hour nap but cried out at 45 minutes and 60 minutes so i think that's the minimum A time he can do.  We didn't have a great night either so he must have been fairly tired.  We then did 1hr 20 for his second nap and he only slept 45 minutes tops so i think that answers my question about whether he needs less A time in the morning!  I guess he prefers 1hr 20-30 in the morning but then needs a slightly shorter A time after that. 

My problem seems to be the afternoon nap.  I can't get a decent nap out of him then. It'll be interesting to see what he does today after a bit less sleep actually.  I found an old post from when my daughter was 14 weeks and doing the same and the answer for herwas to sslowly move towards a 4 hour EASY so I'm bearing that in mind too.

Tomorrow I'll go back to a morning A time of 1hr 20-30 shall I and go from there?  Should i try and stretch out that second A time as well do you think?

ETA: Shorter A times definitely not working for us.  He did 1hr 20 before his third nap again and only napped 40 minutes.  Definitely not woken from this one happy so going to try to resettle and feed if he won't.

[Erin M]

Tomorrow I'll go back to a morning A time of 1hr 20-30 shall I and go from there?  Should i try and stretch out that second A time as well do you think?

That sounds about right -- the sense I'm getting is that he probably likes his A times to lengthen as the day goes on, do you think so (of course on the flip side you also have to watch that he's not getting overstimulated as the day goes on ) -- I'll be totally honest and tell you I always had a really hard time with the later naps at this age -- we'd just do our best with them in the stroller/swing/etc and push through until BT.  If you're getting good naps in the morning though, I'd stick with what works there since that will help keep him from getting too OT by the end of the day, yk?  As you probably saw from your daughter's early routines, it all changes so quickly at this point anyway!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yes, i think you're right that he likes longer A times in the afternoon.  I might try and do a longer wd for the afternoon nap today (or tomorrow - I have a friend staying)  and see if that helps too.

I remember struggling with the afternoon nap for a long time with lily too.  I suspect we're in for some messy afternoons for a while but as long as i get the cat nap within 60-90 minutes of bedtime we seem to be ok.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

I think you might be right with the 1hr 30 A times and that the short second A time might have been to do with recovering from OT cos we've had a better day today on longer A times:

WU: 6.10 I think. Give or take 5 mins

E: 6.30-7
A: 1hr 25?
S: 7.35 - 8.20 (45 minutes)

E: 8.45 - 9.15
A: 1hr 30
S: 9.50 - 11.50 (2 hrs)

E: 12 - 12.30
A: 1hr 25
S: 1.15 - 1.50 (40 minutes)

E: 2.10 - 3.10
A: 1hr 40
S: 3.30 - ? Still asleep but will wake him at 5.15ish and get him into bed by 7.

So shall i carry on with the 1hr 30 A times do you think or up them if he looks like he can handle it as we're still getting some 40 minute naps? If you think I should up them a bit which ones do you think i should start with?

[Erin M]

I *think* maybe up the first (or as hard as it is, figure out how long it is -- that first one is the worst, trying to figure out exactly how long it is!) -- that second A time of 1.30 was on a short nap, so I actually think it's showing that he is ready for more (though not a lot more, I'd start around 1.40 and see where that gets you).  Then, I'd take it as the day goes on -- if you get a good nap off of 1.40, do 1.40 for the next.  If you get a short nap, do 1.30 instead.  Make sense?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yep, perfect sense!  Will try it in the morning and let you know

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Well,  today I have learnt that 1hr 40 A time is a tad high for jack first thing in the morning!  He napped fine on it - I woke him after 2 hours but he started giving me tired signs only 55 minutes into his second A time and was yawning by an hour.  That normally means I've missed the window or haven to put him straight down but i dragged it out to give him 1hr 30 A time (v. v. low key - just walked around the house with him swaddled). Normally i would have acted on the yawns which probably would have given an A time of about 1hr 15 but I figured I'd never know if i didn't try for more.  Should have known better - we got a 30 minute nap!  I think that first A was a bit high cos it caused him to cut right back on that second one again.  Do you think?

Tomorrow I'm thinking to go back to the A times we did yesterday but to push the second A time instead, with an extra long wd if i can (my daughter will be home) to eliminate OS as a potential issue?  If he looks tired though I'll just put him down.

What do you think? Should i try something else instead? 

[Erin M]

I think that sounds good -- with the 1.30 for the first A time and again for the second (if you get a good nap) with a longer wind down if you can do it.  It's really hard to get past OS at this age when you have older LOs at home -- especially as they get more aware.  They do get over it after a bit, but I'm convinced my ds was pretty much constantly overstimulated the first few months of his life! 

At any rate, it seems like he'll be ready to transition to a 4 hour EASY in a month or so!

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Well we did 1.5 hours A time first thing today and woke him after an hour and a half but he then struggled with his second A time again. I put him down after an hour in the end cos I could see he was tired (from yesterday still? ) thinking he'd do 1hr 20 A time but he fell asleep within 10 minutes so 1hr 10 in the end. I didn't want to risk an ot nap cos he had jabs afterwards and knew he'd struggle more if he was ot.   I had to wake him after an hour and a half again to go out for his jabs.  Put him back down after 1hr 20 but with no wind down at all and he slept 50 mins on 1hr 30 A time. I think he would have done more but was os from being out right up til nap time cos he was still tired when he woke up. 

Anyway, I think he's growth spurting and jabs may interfere but i think I'm getting better at spotting his tired signs so will carry on aiming for 1hr 30 A time in the morning and we'll see how we go.  I don't think I'll push him too hard though while it's all going on unless i think it's causing problems (e.g. If we're getting lots of 45 minute naps which puts him in an ut/ot loop) he's due a leap next week as well.  Do lo's generally up their a time after growth spurts and/or leaps?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

We were getting crying for every nap until recently too.  I'm sure it'll be back!  I found that doing quiet activities before proper wd helps,  but it sounds like you're doing it anyway.  We still get some fussing for most naps but i think that's just him recognising the sleep cues and changing gears if you know what i mean? The more relaxed he is at the start of wd,  the easier it goes,  with the smoothest wind down when i feed in his room right up to it.

We try and do 5/10 minutes of something quiet in or near his room towards the end of his A time. We might look out of the window and talk,  or go for a walk round the bedrooms,  or look at a book (But not a bright stimulating one). Then i swaddle, pull the blind andput ion the white noise.  He often starts fussing at this point and rubs his forehead on my chest and shoulder several times.  We sit down,  he has another fussy cry which ends in him yawning.  He's often calm and starts staring then and i sing his bedtime song.  Sometimes he'll do another minute of fussy crying and does another yawn.  I then put him down.  He's often quite wide eyed at this point now whereas he used to start getting drowsy and droopy eyed.  He still does sometimes but not as often.  From swaddle to putting him down takes 3-5 minutes max. 

After I've put him down he'll sometimes do one more fuss for another minute, then he starts wriggling and moving his head around to self settle.  Sometimes he skips the fussing bit and just chats to himself for a bit. I don't sshh/pat or anything until he's in his bed cos i found it wound him up and it never lasts long if i let him cry when i hold him. The white noise provides the sshh anyway!  If he's not settling I put a hand on him (our version of the pat) and turn up the white noise. I found sshhing him annoyed him,  as does singing or anything else now,  though occasionally singing quietly in the background will distract him enough to calm down. Generally he doesn't need it,  though I'm expecting a more unsettled time with the next leap. Once he's calm I leave him and he's asleep within 15 minutes usually.

Hope that helps,  though it doesn't sound very different to what you're doing.  Only thing is I think he's an angel baby.  I used to give my daughter a longer wind down but have just found jack's ok with a shorter one generally,  as long as i tone down the activity as we approach wd.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

I take him up for quiet time around 1hr to 1 hr 5 depending on what's going on and if we're already doing something quiet or if big sister is around!  Swaddle at 1hr 10 ish,  in bed usually a few minutes later.  Out of the door by 1hr 15 at the latest normally now, asleep by 1hr 30 normally but sometimes he catches me out and is asleep sooner. It usually works out as i just described though.

[Erin M]

lovelylily, I wouldn't worry about the variations in A time right now as long as you're getting decent naps off of whatever.  I founds with all of mine that there came a time closer to the 4/5 month mark where I had to do a lot more clock watching and lot less cue reading to get good naps, but if reading cues is working for good naps right now, I'd go with it (and probably note the general A time variations as it will help you going forward).

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Will do,  thanks. I find it helpful as a way of getting to know him but very aware it will all change- especially as we never have enough stable days in a row to get a proper routine going anyway. I also need to work on letting go on the whole napping thing a bit anyway cos I'm never going to achieve perfection cos we're going to alternate between tiring days and catch up days always i think.  But at least if i know what he needs then I know what to adjust from if need be.

[Erin M]

So true!  I guess no matter what you end up doing it helps to know that he can do a longer A time in the morning, or a shorter one before bed or however it ends up.  And you're right, it changes constantly at this age -- developmental stuff, constantly increasing A time, etc.