Waking up every 2 hours

[Lollipop86]

Hi! I have a problem with my baby. She was a bad sleeper from the start and we were struggling to get and stay asleep. Now I BF her to calm her down and make her drowsy and then put her in her crib on her tummy, then sometimes I have to ssh/pat her, other times just insert dummy. She sleeps 1-2 hours during her naps (wakes about 2 times in between) and goes to bed at about 9-10 pm so she has up to 4 naps during the day! Then she wakes up every 1,5-2 hours and sleeps restless. From 5am usually she manages to sleep till 8-9 am. I BF her everytime during the night wakings and usually she goes back to sleep. But she eats a lot everytime! I BF her every 2 hours during the day... But I think milk is not the problem since she gains weight and pees a lot.
Ok, so to answer other questions...

She is almost 5 months old.
She hasn't got a very good daily routine because she wakes up at very different hours. We tried to get her to bed earlier with bed time routine but she only slept for an hour and then she was completely awake till 10 pm.
I BF, every 2 hours, one side.
She wakes up about 5 times per night. She cries a little (not a mantra cry, because she is on her hands, head up and looking at me) and she BF like during the day. Then she goes back to sleep. Sometimes she has trouble with that so I have to hold her hand and pat her. Sometimes she goes to restless sleep for up to an hour. I don't know if she is awake or asleep... She moves a lot.
Well honestly I never tried to settle her different than BF because this waking up was every 3-4 hours before and naturally I BF her then. It got just more frequent now.
A time is 2-3 hours. I put her down on the gym to play or have her in the bouncer or play with her in my lap. Our walks are short because she doesn't like the stroller too much.
At first I thought this waking up had to do with ending sleep cycle and that she couldn't fall back to sleep. Now I'm not so sure...
I haven't given her cereal yet. Just vegetables a few times for lunch.
Do they have a prop? If so what is it? - I don't understand this completely. I'm from Europe
Do they have a lovie? - Is this a toy for sleeping? She has that, I made it myself. I slept on it for one night so it would smell like me... 

What do you suggest I should do? Wait for it to pass? Carry her instead of BF? I really need some advice because I'm really getting chronically tired. And I'm afraid that things will get even worse with teething and if she gets sick...

[katie80]

Hi there, it sounds like your DD does have a prop, BFing, as she needs that to calm down and go to sleep and that's how she gets back to sleep each time she wakes in the night.

I think the main thing that's going to help you work out these issues, besides sleep training is going to be getting her onto an age appropriate routine. Right now, she's likely on the OT side with long days and broken sleep, but that shouldn't be too difficult to remedy. Her A time is high, I'd stick with 2-2:15 and shoot for two good naps and a CN. It's also really helpful to work toward a 12hr day/12hr night. Here are some sample routines for her age to take a look at: chronological EASY samples, 4-6 months

As for feeding, you'll want to start offering that second feed closer and closer to the first so that you can combine them. At this age, she should be able to go 3.5-4hr in between feeds. Right now she's probably snacking, not really taking a full feed every 2hr and then because of that is continuing to wake to be fed in the night. Combining the feeds will also help to not feed right before a nap, so that you can start settling her with shh/pat and work her toward independent sleep.

I'd work on the day time routine for a good week or two and then work on nights if they haven't sorted out much. Again, she doesn't need to eat earlier than 4hrly in the night, so every wake before 4hr you'll get her back to sleep with shh/pat and then feed her at the first waking that's at or after 4hr.

It's great that you've introduced a lovey and that it smells like you. Using that and calming her with shh/pat will be great tools in getting her to independent sleep.

I hope that helps. Let us know if you have other questions!

[Lollipop86]

So this means I don't BF her before naps... This would mean 3-4 hour feeds. If only she wasn't so difficult with getting her to sleep. Before, when I didn't BF her to make her sleepy, we had a lot of crying, carrying in my arms, wacuume cleaner sound, sssh/patting... And a lot of bad energy. Now I have to admit it's easier. She is a difficult child - as far sleeping is concerned.  But I also admit it made her dependant on BF. Now if she is grumpy I just latch her on and then she is happier. Most of the times...

I thought as my husband has the next week off that we could switch places in the bed so that he would be right next to her and he would ssh/pat her back to sleep. He would only wake me up for BF 2 times during the night. And then maybe in time she will get it that night is for sleeping not BF!

And also I don't know how to prolong her naps... She wakes up every 1/2 hour but I only manage to get her back to sleep 1-2 times. Then she is up! She sleeps well only in a carrier. And 12/12 also... we have it more 13/11 (if we are lucky).

[katie80]

Ok, maybe I didn't understand what you were asking. What is it that you'd like to accomplish?

This would mean 3-4 hour feeds.

Yes, this is appropriate for her age. She will be taking fuller feeds at that point and then you can be sure she doesn't need as many when she wakes at night.

If only she wasn't so difficult with getting her to sleep. Before, when I didn't BF her to make her sleepy, we had a lot of crying, carrying in my arms, wacuume cleaner sound, sssh/patting... And a lot of bad energy.

I think this is mostly due to her being on an incorrect routine and overtired.  At 5mo, A time is around 2hr-2hr15min. If you've been keeping her up 2-3hr, she's likely OT when you go to put her down and thus the fight.  If you are consistent in a new method, like shh/pat, she will get used to it and learn how to get to sleep without all those other things.

Now if she is grumpy I just latch her on and then she is happier. Most of the times...

This is totally your prerogative, but again it points to the breast as a prop since she is unable to soothe herself.

I thought as my husband has the next week off that we could switch places in the bed so that he would be right next to her and he would ssh/pat her back to sleep. He would only wake me up for BF 2 times during the night. And then maybe in time she will get it that night is for sleeping not BF!

Ok, so if I'm reading this correctly, I'm assuming you're co-sleeping as well?  I don't have any experience in weaning BFs while co-sleeping, I'm assuming it's a bit tricky, but if this is the plan you'd like to try, I don't see any problems with it.  Here are some links on co-sleeping that you might find helpful from Elizabeth Pantley (author of The No-Cry Sleep Solution): GRADUALLY WEAN CO-SLEEPING:HELP YOUR BABY TO FALL BACK TO SLEEP ON HIS OWN, GRADUALLY WEAN CO-SLEEPING:HELP YOUR BABY FALL BACK TO SLEEP WITH ANOTHER PERSON

And also I don't know how to prolong her naps... She wakes up every 1/2 hour but I only manage to get her back to sleep 1-2 times. Then she is up! She sleeps well only in a carrier. And 12/12 also... we have it more 13/11 (if we are lucky).

Again, these are both due to routine and the fact that she doesn't know how to get her self to sleep or stay asleep.  Getting on the right routine and teaching her some independent sleeping skills should help both of those things.  Some babies only naturally do an 11hr night rather than a 12hr one, but she should be given the chance, because you both need some more sleep.

So, I'm not sure any of this helps, because I'm unsure of what your goal is.  Let me know and I'll see if I can't help or find someone who can.

[Lollipop86]

Thank you. Well I wasn't clear too..

I forgot to write in the last post that 3 hours of A time is not a rule! It's only sometimes if we go to a visit or something... she forgets she is tired and if I don't put her in the carrier she doesn't sleep. So it's more 2 hours. In the morning she is tired sooner (I don't know why) so often she falls asleep after 1,5 hours.

We are not co-sleeping (we did at a certain point but it wasn't working). I have her crib right next to my bed.

My goal is to teach her that BF is not for falling asleep. I like BF and I'm willing to offer it to her if she is crying because it calms her down. But I would like to make a difference between calming her down and making her fall asleep. If that's understandable?? And if that is possible... But at this point I don't know how to make her sleepy other than BF. She is grumpy but not sleepy - so that I could put her in the crib and she would fall asleep. If I don't BF her before than even ssh/pat doesn't help. We have to carry her and use white noise. And at night BF is obviously better solution But I don't want that anymore. I would like to teach her to sooth herself back to sleep alone.

She has good and bad days. Two days ago I bf her but then she pooped and I changed her so she was awake but when I put her in the crib she fell asleep on her own! (this proves that she can do it!) But sometimes she just cries and only BF again helps...  So I don't know where to start from here.

[Lollipop86]

I think I can write you how our naps look like. (I always forget some things I wanted to write because I have to think how something is said in English...)

Lets say she wakes up at 8.45. She goes to sleep at about 10.20-10.30 am. BF, ssh/pat or not if she gets so sleepy, wakes up after 30-40 minutes, ssh/pat in the crib, goes back to sleep, sleeps for about 30 minutes than she wakes up happy.

Next nap is at about 2-2.30 pm. BF, ssh/pat, goes to sleep. She sleeps 30-40 minutes, then wakes up and usually she looks like she has had enough. I try to put her back to sleep by ssh/pat. Sometimes it works, other times not. Then my husband comes home longing for a nap and he tkaes over. He carries her, uses white noise and she goes back to sleep. If he wants to put her in the crib sometimes it works sometimes she starts to cry. If so he has her in his arms, sits on the bed and they sleep together. I think this is bad but it's the only way she sleeps 1,5-2 hours in the afternoon. When she wakes up usually she cries and even animation doesn't help. As if she had a bad dream.

The catnap is at about 6 pm. Whenever she wakes up we don't try to put her back because it should be short.

Bed time is usually at 8.30-9 pm.

At night when she wakes up she fusses a little then if I try ssh/pat she starts crying and only BF helps. Sometimes even when I put her back she doesn't fall back asleep but she moves around her crib in silence. I don't know if she is awake or asleep.

OK, I hope this is more understandible now...

[katie80]

I always forget some things I wanted to write because I have to think how something is said in English...

No worries... you write very well.   I can imagine it's a process to get it all down how you want.

But I would like to make a difference between calming her down and making her fall asleep. If that's understandable?? And if that is possible...

Yes, I think I understand and I think it's possible, but you will have to teach her a different way.  If she's always been calmed by BF, she will be frustrated at first if she's not.  When you've tried shh/pat before, how long have you persisted?  It can take 45min or so the first time at nap time and longer in the middle of the night (because we advise you to take a break after 45min at nap time, but to go until LO is asleep at night).  Do you have a good winddown routine to help her know that sleep is coming and it's time to calm down?  Here's some helpful info on that: What does a good wind down consist of (Includes 4S ritual)

And at night BF is obviously better solution But I don't want that anymore. I would like to teach her to sooth herself back to sleep alone.

Yes, it gets tiring on everyone and isn't a long term solution.  You'll all get better sleep when she can self-soothe.  I do think though if you are going to shh/pat her back to sleep in the middle of the night, it's only fair to do that to settle her to sleep during the day and at BT too.  Otherwise, she'll be a bit confused and will likely fight it more.  Often, once a LO can self-soothe at the initial sleep time, she will be able to transition during naps and night time as well.

Your routine looks pretty good.  I'd just keep in mind the 2-2:15hr A time.  She's likely waking in her naps because she doesn't know how to self-soothe and keep sleeping through the transition and also because she's a bit OT due to broken sleep.  Teaching her how to go to sleep independently will help both those things.

I hope this helps... let me know if you have other questions or insights!

[Lollipop86]

Thank you very much. Great advice. I think our problem is just that we aren't persistant... We give up quite quickly... We will try to do it this time

Every nap time I take her in my arms, switch the light in the living room off (if it's on), turn the monitor off, go to the bedroom, close the window and close the shades, then climb on the bed, BF and into the crib and Ssh/pat if necessary.

Now we just do the ssh/pat without BF?

What else can we do to help her teach to self soothe?

We tried not to BF everytime last night. We did actually just at 00.30, 3.15 and 7.30 am. Then I had to go somewhere and I got home only at 11.30 and she was sleeping! My husband said he couldn't believe she slept till 9.30 and at 11.20 she fell asleep almost immediately even though she hasn't eaten since 7.30. She then slept till 1 pm. When she woke up she was happy and BF normally... I am impressed! Now they are playing and then we are going to see what it will be like at afternoon nap

[katie80]

That's a good start!

Now we just do the ssh/pat without BF?

What else can we do to help her teach to self soothe?

Yes, you will do your wind down and just leave out the BF. It will take persistence and some time, because she's always had 'help' from the BF. But, Tracy always said if you're as consistent in the new way as you were in the old, she will definitely learn and it shouldn't more than a week or two. As for other ways to help her self soothe, give her the lovey and just keep encouraging her with a gentle voice and shh/pat. She might find another way on her own too. These LOs are smart!

Keep me posted!!

[Lollipop86]

Just one more thing. 

It can take 45min or so the first time at nap time and longer in the middle of the night (because we advise you to take a break after 45min at nap time, but to go until LO is asleep at night).

 I don't think I understand this. So I put her in the crib and ssh/pat her for 45 minutes till she falls asleep? No taking her out and rocking or sthg like that? Because I usually ssh/pat her and then if it doesn't work I take her out and rock her. I don't know how else to react if she starts to cry. Or do I just listen to her and ssh/pat on? (wouldn't this be "ferbarising" her?) And what if she is not crying but playing with her pacifier? Just ssh/pat on?
Because my daughter can be very persistant with these things if she wants. If she starts crying it gets only worse and nothing helps. Except for BF or rocking with white noise.
Usually it's like that: I put her in-she is in a good mood, on all 4, smiling, talking to herself-starts whining-then she calmes down and lies down-then starts growling-calmes down-then again on all 4 and crying continuously.

And please explain 45 mins or more in the night....

[katie80]

Yes, you will go through your wind down and then place her in the crib.  Take a step back (preferably out of sight) and see if she can calm herself.  If she's playing or just fussing, leave her to it.  If she starts to cry an 'I need help, mom' cry, then go to her and shh/pat her to sleep.  You will do this for 45min at naptime and if she's not sleeping yet (or close to it), take a 15-20min break, then try again til the end of nap time.  At night, there is not a time limit, you continue until she is asleep.  You won't want to pick her up to rock or bounce her as that is not teaching her to self-soothe.  If she is quite upset, you can pick her up and shh/pat in your arms to settle her, but that shouldn't be for more than 3-4min or you can become the prop. Since she's used to BFing to calm her down, I'd try to settle her in the crib as much as possible, so that she doesn't think she'll be BFd when picked up.. Sometimes it might feel like it will never end, but if you are consistent and persistent with her, she will get it and learn how to fall asleep on her own.  Here are some links on shh/pat and PUPD to help: Pat-shush for babies under three months old,  How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)

There will definitely be crying and frustration on her part (and likely yours), but this is in no way similar to 'Ferberizing', which would be leaving her to cry for certain time intervals and then going back to 'check' on her.  All BW sleep training techniques focus on being there for your child, not abandoning her, and teaching her independent sleep.  That doesnt mean there won't be some crying, but your DD will be secure in knowing that you're there to help her. Here's another good link on this: Why is PU/PD different to CC/CIO?

I hope that helps!

[Lollipop86]

I hope that helps!

It does!

Thank you very much. Now it's work time I hope it works out. And I hope we can be persistant.

[katie80]

You're welcome!  FX you can stay persistent too.  Just remember that if you end up using a prop to calm her down and get her back to sleep, you've only reinforced the prop and she has cried and been frustrated for nothing.   I'm sure that's not what you're hoping to get out of this.

You can do it!  Good luck!!

[Lollipop86]

Hi!

Well I am happy to report that we have good progress! And the more I watch my DD the more I have the feeling that she wants to learn to sleep without any props. My housband still sometimes rocked her before he put her down and she got more frustrated than when I first put her down and waited for her to tell me if she needed help. Now she mostly doesn't cry in that amount that she would need PU/PD anymore. Just ssh/pat will do. Once she managed to fall asleep on her own. Once she fell asleep during a song that I sang to her (I didn't to that before because it looked like songs just overstimulated her).
Last night she had more diffilcuties falling asleep at night and I think this was "day 5". (she fought me and my husband when we tried to soothe her) I hope today is better
She still wakes up once or twice during her naps but dummy and a little ssh/pat does it. In the evening she wakes up more so I BF her every 3 hours but during the day and night usually every 4 hours. If she wakes up after 3 hours at night I try to soothe her but if it takes long time I BF her because she would be hungry soon and wake up again. I mean even I am hungry when I wake up at night. If Bmilk is digested in 1,5 hours then she must be hungry... if she slept she wouldn't feel it, but in that case I think it's best that way. What do you think? Well I BF 2 times at night now.
She sleeps about 11 hours and has 2x1,5 hour naps and usually one shorter. I must ask - what if the morning nap is shorter - like a catnap?

I have to say this site really helped me and my family! First I just found E.A.S.Y. forum and I didn't know it was more to it. Now I surfed thrue other forums too. I also didn't know there was a book! We only have one copy in my country but I will try to get it from the library. I have to read it now
Thank you and *Kara*. I am sure I will have more questions but anyway thank you

[Erin M]

She sleeps about 11 hours and has 2x1,5 hour naps and usually one shorter. I must ask - what if the morning nap is shorter - like a catnap?

You should probably shorten your A time until the next nap, only by about 15 minutes or so. 

Last night she had more diffilcuties falling asleep at night and I think this was "day 5". (she fought me and my husband when we tried to soothe her) I hope today is better

Sometimes you get regression after a few nights of progress, just keep pushing through.