16 week old awake at 3.30am

[H7]

Hello...

My LO is just over 16 weeks and this last week she has started waking around 3.30 to 4.30 in the morning. She wakes up happy and is cooing and chatting away in her cot. She then settles herself after 15 minutes or so but 15minutes after that is awake again and so the cycle continue until around 5.30 where she will then have a wriggly restless sleep until 7. One night she woke at 4.45 and was chatting away for an hour before falling asleep.

She has been sleeping through the night 7/7.30pm til 6/7pm with no dream feed or night feed since she was 11 weeks old so for her to suddenly starting waking at 3.30 is a real shock to the system.

There are 2 things I think this coincides with and that's she's now going 4hrs between feeds rather than three and her afternoon nap has suddenly increased from 1.5hrs to 2-2.5hrs and I have been waking her  up at the 2hr mark.

So do you think I should leave her asleep at afternoon nap for longer than 2 hrs?

When on a 3hr easy I felt we had it sussed but now she's 4 hr feeding I feel it's all gone out of the windows.  Especially in the morning where she only naps for 45 mins so then has a 2nd nap before her second feed and also in the afternoon sometimes she wakes too early from last nap and next feed isn't due till after the time she would want to be going to sleep. So I've been putting her to bed earlier but she's been having slightly less from the bottle.

Day looks roughly like this for last week:

A: 7
E: 7.15
S: 8.15 (45 mins)
A: 9
S:10.15 (45 mins)
A:11
E: 11.15
S: 12.45 (2 hrs)
A: 2.45 (I wake her to fit in later nap)
E: 3.15
S: 4.30 (45 mins)
A: 5.15
Bedtime routine:
Bath 6.30
Bottle 7
Bed 7.15

So as you can see it's a little all.over the place. Feel like her morning nap needs to be longer but she wakes after 45 mins and is always happy happy. I do leave her a bit to see if she will resettle but she doesn't. But then she's tired again by 10/10.15 and needs the 2nd nap before having 2nd feed.

Sorry for the long post. Any thoughts or insight would be greatly appreciated.

[Kellyjs]

It may be that it's time to push that first A a little? An 1hr 15mins is quite short for her age. See here Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

It's a good link to keep handy as its surprising how quickly they like to extend their times. Happy chatty NW's can signal UT during the day, but also OT by the end of the day because of the non-restorative naps. Confusing I know 

Could you try and push that first A by 15mins and hold it for a couple of days for me? We don't like to jump too much to soon as we like to give them chance to catch up with it. It may not work at first, so please don't be disheartened if it doesn't. Or it might work the first day and revert on the second. just prewarning you! Could you try and let me know how it goes? Once that first nap is longer again, I'm sure the E times will fall into place again. It's around 5mo when we have to be a bit creative with the E times xx

[H7]

Thanks for the reply.

This morning she woke at 6.45 and napped at 8.15 so managed to extend the first awake period by 15 mins ... she still woke after 45 minutes. She did resettle after the 45min stir and I thought she was asleep so I got up (still in same room and I had gone back for a snooze for first 45 too) but unfortunately she was in the zoned out starring into space stage and when she saw me she snapped out of it and was then awake and wouldn't resettle again. So she may well have had 1hr 30 had i not done thay. But because she woke i had to put another 45 minute nap in before her 2nd feed. . I will try again tomorrow and see how we go.

Yesterday she had 2hr 30 nap from 12.30 til 3 and then 45 min nap from 4.45 til 5.30. I wondered if maybe her awake time from last nap to bed is too long. I was putting her down at 7.30 (2hr awake time) but that was after a 1hr 30 late nap but now that nap is only 45 mins I wonder if her awake time at the end of the day also needs to be shorter. So yesterday she woke at 5.30 and I bathed her at 6.15 then bottle at 6.30 and she was asleep by 6.50 so only awake 1hr 20 which seems short but she went straight to sleep herself and slept through til 5.30 where she woke briefly for 15 mins and then slept til 6.45.

[Kellyjs]

Yes definitely, you've hit the nail on the head there. 2hr A will certainly be too long after a short CN. Well done you for thinking of that on the day. I would go with 1.5hrs absolute max, perhaps as low as 1hr 15mins. I hate OT before BT ! What you've done there is perfect.

I'd hold that A time for another day. Then we can reassess. As I said, her first A time was quite short so another bump may be on the cards in a couple of days. Yay to the good ONS though, much better  . Keep me posted ok? xx

[H7]

Cheers.

Going to keep going with the 1hr 30 first awake time and hopefully that will make a difference.

She really didn't want to go down for her last nap of the day today for some reason and ended up  it going down for it until 5.30 which I know is late but I figured better that than not all. She woke at 6.15 and my husband is currently upstairs getting her ready for bed.

I hope the late finish of the nap hasn't messed with things. No idea why it was such a struggle getting her to sleep for that last nap ... think she just likes to keep me on my toes!

[Kellyjs]

Ha ha they do like to do that! We'll keep an eye on it, hopefully it's not just a one off. Keep a note of it all ok? What you can do on days like that is shorten the CN to 30mins, then it's basically straight upstairs for wind down, bottle and bath etc then into bed. However that's always a tricky one to shorten at this age!

Give it another month or two or so and she'll refuse that nap more often than not, then it becomes a real PITA  xx

[H7]

Well last night was the worst night we've ever had. She woke at 9 screaming the house down and then woke at 10.30 12.30 2.30 4.30 and 5 finally resettled at 6.30 and I woke her at 7.15 as didn't want her waking up too late and getting totally out of sync. That may have been the wrong thing to do tho!

She didn't even wake 2 hourly as a newborn.

She's been awake 1hr 30 now and is in her cot very close to falling asleep for first nap so will see how today goes.

[Kellyjs]

So sorry you've had a rough night. Sometimes they can be that unsettled when they're in discomfort. Mine went through it at Xmas at 2.5yo, it was awful and definitely a shock to the system! Fx today went better for you xx

[H7]

She napped for 1hr 30 for first nap yesterday and is currently 1hr 20 into that nap this morning too.

Slept much better last night as well.

Just going to take each day as it comes and ride the sleep regression wave in as positive a mind set as I can!

[Kellyjs]

Well done you, this is much better! ANd you sound better for it too  . Pop back if you need to xx

[H7]

Just wanted to pop back and say that extending the morning awake time has made a big difference. We've had a couple of 4.30am wake up s but most nights since changing this she has slept 10-12 hours and her naps are longer in the day too. Currently at around a 1hr 30 to 1hr 40 awake time after waking in the morning. Gradually trying to stretch this out without ending up with an overtired bub! Cheers again 😃

[Kellyjs]

My pleasure and thanks for coming back to share the good news, too few people do that! Do pop back whenever you need to and keep an eye on those naps, any consistent short napping consider how long she's been at the current A time. They do like to keep extending it  xx

[H7]

Quick question .... what's your thoughts on waking babies in the morning? If my little one is still asleep by 7.30 I wake her but friends and family say they think I'm crazy for doing this? It seems to be working though as she is still sleeping 11-12 1/2 hrs and has been for a week now but just don't know whether I should wake her or not or let her sleep and settle into her own natural wake up time.

[Kellyjs]

Ahhh that age old question  . Personally I always did, but I was a stickler for our routine. After she was on one nap I didn't as someone reminded me there must be some flexibility to allow them to self-regulate their sleep.

If I were to do it again, I wouldn't wake, but just use our A times and work through the day accepting a later BT if the naps were good. 11-12.5hrs is wonderful and tbh I'd make the most of it while it lasts and before she changes it up again, as she inevitably will  xx

[H7]

And 1 week later she has started to become predictably unpredictable.

We had about 10 days of the routine being pretty much the same every day
A: 7.15
E: 7.30
S: 9.00

A: 10.45
E: 11.30
S: 12.30

A: 14.00
E: 15.00
S: 15.45

A: 16.30
Bedtime
Bath 6pm
Bottle 6.30
Sleep 6.45

Night sleep between 12 and 12.5 hours with no dream or night feed.

The timings varied some days by 15 to 30 mins depending on her morning wake up time but was pretty much set like this for a good 10 to 12 days and now the last 2 days for some reason she's gone back to the morning nap being 45 minutes.

I tried to extend out the morning awake time to 2hrs yesterday and that majorly backfired as she woke up crying after 45 minutes and she has only ever woken from naps crying a handful of times even as a newborn she rarely did that. Then yesterday 3rd nap she woke crying as well. This morning my husband put her down 1hr 50 after she woke and she woke crying at the 45 minute mark again and also woke crying after her 3rd nap too.

I had attempted to stretch it as know when they approach 5 months their awake time can extend and she can manage 2 hrs at the end of the day so thought I'd try it at the beginning but do you think that maybe she isn't ready?

Going to try putting her down tomorrow after 1hr 45 again and see what happens.

Her night sleep hasn't been affected too much so far (touch wood) she's woke at 5.45am the last two mornings so we've gone in and sussshhhed and said sleepy time to her both days and she's gone back to sleep till 7-7.30 again but isn't that a sign of being under tired?

I'm so confuzzled. I thought I had it cracked and as predicted it's changed and I know it's only been two days but I want to try and get it back on track ASAP.

Sorry for the majorly long post.

[H7]

So yesterday I went with the shorter A times and the naps were better but she has woken at 5.45 loudly chatty singing & has kicked all her covers off.

What do you suggest doing when they wake happy chatty at 5.45? I went in at 5.55 ssshhhed, tucked her back in and said everything I say to her before bed in the hope she'll fall asleep again but she's still chatty singing away at 6.15.

I don't want to get her up yet but when u do get them up when do u take their awake time from? If she lies their happily chatting it's 45min till normal wake up time so if I get her out at 7 would u do A time from then or A time from 5.45?

Yesterday's day looked like this

WU: 6.45
E: 7.15
A: total of 1hr 50
S: 8.35

A: 10.20 (1hr 45 nap)

E: 11.00
A: total of 1hr 45
S: 12.05

A: 13.40 (1hr 35 nap)

E: 3.00
A: total of 2hr 40
S: 16.20 (this was a long awake time as we were out food shopping and she won't fall asleep went out and about unless in the car or in pushchair so didn't fall asleep til journey home)

A: 17.05 (45 min nap)

Bedtime
Bath 6
Bottle 6.15
In cot 6.35
Asleep 6.55 (total A time 1hr 50)

It took her 20 mins to fall asleep and it never normally takes that long. Said to husband at the time we've put her down too early as her A time was only 1hr 30 when we put her in the cot but she was showing all the tired signs before we put her in the bath so decided to follow her lead thinking it was because of the long awake time when we were out shopping but it seems to have backfired as she has woken at 5.45.

How long should their last awake time be?

Can you see anything else we should have done differently?

[trimbler]

Hi there, sorry haven't looked back through your previous posts but just to say at this age I, and some other mums on here, have found the 'half A time' concept useful, for waking early in the morning, or short naps where attempts to resettle have failed. So, take the amount of time LO was awake but calm in the cot, before officially getting up, and halve it. Then take that off the usual A time before the next nap. So, if she wakes at 5:45 but you don't want her up until 6:45, and she's happy playing/babbling in her cot, consider that as her being up for just half an hour before getting up. Then if she needs 1h 50 A time in total, give her another 1h 20mins from getting up at 6:45 to her nap at 8:05 - or thereabouts. Works for some, so feel free to try it, just a rule of thumb though

As I said, I haven't looked back over everything, but I wondered if she'd been able to have a shorter A before the third nap that day, whether she'd have taken a longer nap and then done well on her usual A time afterwards, but BT would have got a little later by then and she might have then slept in later. I feel like she was tired from that unavoidably long A but if she took a longer third nap she might be able to accrue enough A time overall to sleep in later in the morning. Many LOs will take three longer naps for a while before moving to two long naps and a CN. Actually, my DD was still having a little APOP 4th nap at this age so there is a range

[H7]

Cheers. I will try the half A time concept.

Still can't seem to get back to how it was.

She seems to have stretched to 2hr awake time and goes down ok fot naps with first nap being 1hr 30/1.45 and second nap also being 1hr 30 the CN of 45 but I have to wake her up from the cat nap and when I do she is then really grizzly until bed time.

She goes down to bed fine and sleeps until 4.30 then she's stirring loads and chatting away.

This morning she woke at 5 chatty chatty for 10 min then woke at 6 then chatty chatty for 10 min and then woke at 7.

I thought chatty was under tired?  But then why go back to sleep?

Guess we were just lucky with our 2 weeks of 7 til 7 and that luck h's now passed!

[trimbler]

Have you tried letting her sleep longer for her third nap? Just thinking if she's really grizzly on being woken from it then she may need a bit longer. The 'classic' routine at this age would have 2x 2h naps plus 30-45min CN, on 2h A times, so she may need to make up for only having 1.5h naps by having three of them, if that makes sense?

EW with chatting can be OT, especially if she goes back to sleep afterwards - also just a sign of lots going on in her little brain Actually pretty common at this age, but frustrating when it wakes you and you need that sleep yourself!

[H7]

She does fall asleep each time after her chatting and admittedly it is very cute just not in the early hours of the morning. She likes to chat a lot during the day too.

The only thing with the longer nap is it pushing bedtime to quite late.

She pretty much like clockwork goes down between 8.45 and 9.15 and wakes between 10.30 and 11 meaning next nap starts between 12.30 and 1 and finishes between 2 and 2.30 meaning last nap of the day doesn't start until between 4 to 4.30 so if having 1hr 30 here that's a 5.30 to 6 wake up which means bed won't be until 7.30 to 8 which feels too late for her as when she goes to bed at that time she never seems to sleep as well and will still wake around 7 meaning less overall night sleep!

So tricky hey ... just when u think u have it cracked they go ahhhh nope I'm changing again mummy. Looking forward to when she's a little.older when I'm hoping there is slightly longer between the sleep, nap and awake times changing it up.

In the mean time trying to take each day as it comes and not stress too much ... which is often easier said than done for me!

[trimbler]

You're right, the rate of change of A times etc does get slower as they get older, there are the jumps and nap transitions of course, but they also get further apart. Yes there are other issues, but I personally prefer it when we get a little longer to try and work them out before it all changes again

Yes I see what you mean, I guess I'd looked at the routine you posted above with the shorter A times, but now that A times have lengthened, if the naps are consistently good then a third CN should be ok... Just be sure to reduce the A time following the CN, to avoid OT at BT - easier said than done, I know!

[H7]

I think the shorter A time after CN before BT is the way to go. Hubby put her to bed sunday only 1hr 30 after CN and I was like ahhh that's too early she stays awake 2hrs now but Sunday was the best night we've had in a while and then last night I put her down after 1hr 40 and again she slept much better so wondering if it was OT chatty wake ups as I had been going as long as 2hr 30 some nights between CN finishing and BT.

Think I just need to accept it's constantly changing and just need to ride the wave of sleep ... probably for at least the next 4 years 😂😂

[trimbler]

Aha - reduced A time after CN before BT sounds like a key then, doesn't it?

Hmm hard to say but IME once they're properly settled on a one nap routine and passed the 18mo sr, things do get much more predictable there's even potential for some stability on two naps...but the 2-1 is tricky I think 4 years is a bit pessimistic so hopefully if you expect that then you'll be pleasantly surprised