Anyone used baby sleep consultants?

[J JACK]

I try too our house isn't the biggest and its been quite stormy so we haven't had the chance to play outside very much. I think you might be right though that he's asking for a nap out of habit

[*Ali*]

So have you decided that he is low sleep needs? I ask because those A times seem huge already to me and with all the waking I would have thought him OT rather than UT. Personally if extending A times doesn't seem to help I would look at reducing A times after a short nap and putting the CN back in.

I also think getting him to sleep independently would really help. If shh pat doesn't seem to suit him then perhaps he is ready to move on to Pick Up Put Down? I see you have a lot of feeding, rocking and otherwise helping him get back to sleep so I wonder if knocking all that on the head would solve the numerous NWs and waking mid-nap.

Anyway, that is just another perspective. I could well be completely wrong

[J JACK]

Hi Ali I was actually thinking about it yesterday im still not to sure if he is low sleep needs. The wake times are long but with them any shorter I never get a longer nap than 40 minutes.

As for the NW im not sure why he started waking more he was almost at waking once a night at 3 and a half months then he would just start waking at different times every night, then I would pick him up and feed him which made it worse.

[*Ali*]

Many babies start to wake more around 3-4mo as the way their sleep is organised changes at that age. They go from spending long periods in deep sleep when younger to cycling between light and deep sleep similar to the way adults do in 45 minute cycles. When they come into light sleep they are more likely to wake. This is why babies who previously STTN well start waking more at this age. All my three did it. Being hungry, in discomfort or having a prop they need to sleep (like feeding, rocking, behind patted etc.) will make them wake and cry for you rather than transition into the next sleep cycle. If they are fed at every waking they will soon expect it at every waking. Many people get into "bad" habits around this age because they assume baby is hungry as that is previously the only reason they woke usually. Hope that makes sense.

Teaching him to self-soothe so that he doesn't need to look for you every time he stirs would be my priority.

[J JACK]

Thanks what is the best way to settle him at night without getting him use to me doing it? I try shush patting but he just gets louder, I havnt tried pu/pd as I dont really know much about it yet.

Also Ive noticed most of the time when he does sleep longer its when hes rolled to his side or tummy. He also still has a strong startle reflex during the 30-40 minutes which I think wakes him.

[*Ali*]

Check out PUPD here Pick Up/Put Down (PU/PD) - Everything you ever needed to know!
I would use it in the day too though when he first goes to sleep.

[J JACK]

sorry so would you do this when he wakes up early from a nap?

[*Ali*]

Yes, I would do it whenever you want him to go to sleep.

[J JACK]

I've put the whole week up. Its been pretty good except for today thinking maybe I should bring back the A time 10-15 I thought because of Wednesday when he had a 4hr A time and got 1.50 nap that it would be the same.
Anyways he's pretty happy the whole A time now until 3.30 min then I have to really try entertain him.

Ive put the first a times in brackets next to dates.

Monday 1st (1hr 5)

A - 6:00

E - 6:30 

Solids 7:30

E - 9:15

S - 9:25 10:10 w2s and placed hand on chest

A - 10:35

E - 11:30 

Solids 12:00

E - 1 :15

S - 1 :30- w 2:00 gently rocked went back to sleep 2:30

A - 3:00 

E - 4:00

Solids - 5:00

BT - 7:00

Tuesday 2 (1hr 20)
A - 6:00

E - 6:10

Solids - 7:00 only had a couple of teaspoons. had some more at 8 

E - 9:10

S - 9:20 didn't wake at all, did w2s though so not sure if it was because of that  

A - 10:40

E - 11:30

Solids - 12:00

S - 1:35 had bf before bed, woke 2:07 patted back to sleep till 2:25

A - 2:35

E - 4:00

Solids - 5:30

BT 7:00

Wednesday 3 (1hr 50)
A - 5:30

E - 6:40

Solids - 8:00

S - 9:30 rolled over on tummy stayed asleep himself

A - 11:20 looked like he was trying to go back to sleep but he had a stinky nappy

E - 11:30 little milk before nap

Solids - 12:30

S - 3:00 but didnt go sleep till 3:30 was playing but then started crying after 20 minutes

A - 4:00

E - 4:40

Soldis - 5:30

BT - 7:00

Thursday 4 (1hr 15)
A - 6:00

E - 7:00

Solids - 8:30

S - 09:45 stayed asleep 

A - 11:00 

E - 11:10

Solids - 12:30

S - 2:30 had to shush/pat asleep 10 minutes, woke at 30 minutes patted to sleep, went to sleep after 15 then woke twice after got him up at 3:45

Solids - 4:30

BT - 6:30

Friday 5 (30min)
A - 6:00

E - 7:15

Solids - 8:30 and top up milk

S - 10:00 took a bit of settling 

A - 10:30 really screaming no matter what I did so got him up think he was hungry he had BF 

E - 11:00 

Solids - 12:30 he was falling asleep while eating but was wide awake when done

S -  1:15 had a little milk

W - 1:45 

Solids -

S - 4:00 

W - 4:30

Solids - 5:00

BT - 7:00

[creations]

Ali, I know the first A time seems incredibly long but at 5.5 and 6 months this was the only way to get my DS to sleep a full first nap, which is why it doesn't seem all that strange to me. Once mine was sleeping a good first nap again (after the 4 month regression we had at 3.5 months - 5.5 months) I was able to reduce the A a bit and keep the first nap long. The following A times were much shorter.

Looks like he's falling to sleep independently and able to transition alone so long as he doesn't have a dirty nappy or is hungry...
After looking at the times you've given I wonder if you might try something a bit different. Usually at this age we go by A times and don't look at set times until LO is around 12 months, but some LOs respond really well to set nap times and I wonder if yours is one of them.  It appears that he is looking for food almost at set times regardless of when he had a top up or solids, would you agree?  And the first nap seems to work relatively ok at around 9.30, on Friday when you tried a 4hr A time this took his nap to 10am which he wasn't happy about, but Wednesday he did great with the 4hr A time BUT nap came at 9.30.
Looking through the EASY times with a more 'set' routine in mind it looks like he may be happier to set all meal times and work naps around them. It's almost as though his body clock is guided by those meals times (eg 10 - 10.30 nap wanting E at 11??).
If milk feeds are 'set' to 7, 11, 3 and 7 (which is a regular routine with some give and take) perhaps you can fit in one decent nap in the morning, continue to try a W2S for nap 2 and reintroduce a third nap (CN) as Ali suggested to cover some time before BT.
I'm not suggesting this as a long term solution but more as an experiment to see if he would be happier and more predictable if you followed his E times rather than A times.
The day might look something like this:

WU - any time 5.30 - 6.30 ish
E 6.30/7.00 (the earlier time if he really needs it)
E solids 8 with water and/or top up milk
(A roughly 3 - 4hr)
S set time 9.30 (as long as he will sleep)
E 11
E solids 12 with water and/or top up milk
S 1.30 - 2.30 (or longer if he will)
E 3.00
E solids 4 with water
S 5.00 - 5.30 (if CN is refused EBT)
E 7.00 (if CN refused 5.30)
BT 7.30 (or EBT 6.00)
[I've put in 3 solids meals times for guidance, he doesn't have to have 3 solids meals at this age but looks like that's in your routine anyway]

The possible danger I see is in that first nap could go short if he is not tired enough and morning WU could move earlier than you'd like if he tries to regulate that first A time (ie waking at 5.30 instead of 6 or later) but we would be able to see that happening and take action if/when needed.
If the second nap is longer or if the second CN is refused you could go for EBT.

What do you think?

[J JACK]

I never really thought about him wanting to eat at certain times till you pointed out and I think your right he does seem to want to eat at certain times of the day even if hes eaten not long ago I just always thought maybe he didnt finish the first feed he does get distracted sometimes.

First nap time at 9.30 I think is a good time for him mayb even 9.45 if he wakes later.

Tomorrow's netball is at 10 so he will probably fall asleep in the car on the way then ill transfer his seat to pram, when i do this if he wakes up early is it ok if I push the stroller to get him back to sleep? This would be for every Saturday.

Another thing im not sure if it matters. When he has a long A time before BT he doesn't wake at 40 minutes but the last few days he's had a little shorter A time he's been waking at 50 minutes, usually doesn't take much to settle though
 

[*Ali*]

It's just after a short nap I meant a shorter A time might be better. I agree he seems to need a long one first thing. He looks to be getting OT later in the day.

With the waking after BT I suspect he is so OT he just crashes when the A time is 4.5hrs long but when it is shorter he is just a bit OT and that is causing him to wake after one sleep cycle. That would be my view. If he is easy to resettle for now I wouldn't worry about it. He is having so little sleep in the day (2hr10 or less) that there is no way he could be UT overall, I think Creations would agree?

How are his nights now? Are the wakings similar or do they change with sleep and A times in the day?


I would think it fine to push the pram if he wakes when sleeping in it, especially if it's just once a week. He won't develop a prop from that.

[creations]

Tomorrow's netball is at 10 so he will probably fall asleep in the car on the way then ill transfer his seat to pram, when i do this if he wakes up early is it ok if I push the stroller to get him back to sleep? This would be for every Saturday.

I would. I'd actually do anything to get him to continue the nap when it's out and about like that.

When he has a long A time before BT he doesn't wake at 40 minutes but the last few days he's had a little shorter A time he's been waking at 50 minutes, usually doesn't take much to settle though

I'd look at the whole night and WU time rather than just looking at if he wakes after 40/50 mins.  It could mean nothing, just a little blip because of a change in routine, I'd give it time to settle before making any big decisions on it.

Posted with you Ali - I agree on your thoughts for the BT. 4hr or 4.5hr to bed is way too long and what you say about crashing versus OT makes sense, yes, definitely.

[creations]

Just popping back in to say - how do you feel about maybe skipping the last solids meal of the day?
I see you are still posting on the NW board and there's a question of hunger at night. It could help to cut out the solids so he takes a bigger milk feed before bed time. Milk keeps LOs going longer than solids do when they are this young. Solids can fill them up without giving an equal number of calories which can lead to hunger.
I think Ali also suggested this is a bit early for 3 solids meals.
What do you think? Want to try it?

[J JACK]

How are his nights now? Are the wakings similar or do they change with sleep and A times in the day?

Lately he's been waking 3 times a night im not sure how it changes with the day time Ill start writing it in my log.
I found last night on the secons waiting he kept falling asleep so I kept waking him to eat more and he slept 4 hours and when he woke I think he may have woken because of cold but can't be certain.

Just popping back in to say - how do you feel about maybe skipping the last solids meal of the day?

I will give this a go but his NW started before he was on solids. I am thinking maybe he isnt taking enough milk in the day though he only nurses 3-4 minutes each side during day he's been like this before starting solids and when I first started on 3 meals he was going 4 hours between feeds and was eating a little more. Its hard to tell how much hes drinking when BF.

Another question average sleep time for his age is 14 hours so if he sleeps 12 hours would that mean 2 hours day time sleep?