EASY Routine messed up - Help!

[Camila-Nina]

I really need help...
I read BW during my pregnancy, and started EASY routine w/my LO as soon as we arrived home from hospital, and it was very smooth. Our day was completely predictable, he has always been a textbook baby, used to wake up in a great mood, eat, play for 30/40 minutes, started to yawn, I did some rocking, put him in his crib still awake, sometimes he did a little crying, sometimes not. It used to take him 10 minutes to fell asleep, and he used to sleep 2 hours each nap. Gradually his S time started to get shorter, he used to wake up 30 minutes before feeding time, without any impact in the routine.
He's 18 weeks now, and since last week our routine is a mess. Some of the problems I'm facing:
1. Everyday he wakes up a different time (Monday:5h30, Tuesday:7h30, today:06h30). This causes the eating time to change everyday, and so does the naps and so on. It started last Thursday and since then I'm trying to adjust his last E time to be the same, but even if he eats at the same time every night (around 9pm), his waking up time keeps changing.
2. His naps started to get REALLY shorter last week - until then, they were close to 1.5 hr, but since last week he's doing ok in the morning naps, but his afternoon naps are always 30 minutes long. Sharp. This is what is really causing the mess in the routine, because he is in a awful mood so his A time is not funny anymore... So let me try to explain it better... For example:
E 12h30-12h40
A 12h40-13h20 (started complaining, yawning)
S 13h30-14h00 (woke up in a terrible mood, I've spent around 30 mins trying but couldn't put him to sleep again - so he's awake 1,5h before his next feeding time...)
Y --

I don't know if I'm reading him wrong, because it looks like his A time is too short... and then its like he gets an extra A time after this short nap...! Sometimes when he wakes up after the short nap I can see he needs extra minutes sleeping, 'cause he is rubbing his eyes, even closing them for short periods, but then opens them wide and cries... and his cries start getting louder and he starts to move arms and legs hard... And sometimes looks like he is completely AWAKE... I've tried everything I know to settle him - shss-pat, singing, even rocking (but he gets ed off when I think I've calmed him down and try to put he back in the crib). I just can't get him to fall asleep again, and the only thing that calms him down is to get him out of his room - he stops crying imediatelly! If I move toward his room again, the cry starts over. I've even tried to let him "cry" a little, and it was even worse. So when we get out of the room he is ok for 5, 10 minutes and then starts complaining again, like he is still tired... Should I try to put him to sleep then? Or is this whole thing so completely messed up that I have to start all over again?!?!? Please heeeeelp!!! I'm so frustrated because I tried so hard to start the way I would like it to be - sleeping always in his crib, laying him down while he was still awake, using the same routine (darken the room, put a smooth cd on)... and now he just can't sleep without a LOT of help from me... I'm using the whole list of props - myself, paci, shss-pat ;-(((
He also started some erratic wakenings in the night (he sleeps all night since he was 8 wo, from 9pm till 7am) - monday he woke up around 2h30 am, nothing I did could settle him, so I breastfed him, put him in his crib awake and he slept again...today he woke up at 1h30 am, I gave him his paci and he fell sleep again; I have a lot of questions...
1. Could he be hungry, could this be a spurt of growth?
2. How can I extend his A time, if he starts to get tired, complaining and yawning - if I insist keeping him awake to reach 1,5h awake, wouldn't I miss the window?
3. Am I responding too soon in the nights wakenings? But I fear that if I let he be completely awake, then it will be much harder to calm him down...
4. Am I overstimulating him, and that's why he is sleeping less, and it's harder to put him to sleep? Or am I under stimulating him, so that he's not tired enough and he is resisting to sleep because he's not tired enough?
5. What do I do when he wakes up 1,5h before next feeding time? Should I play with him - wouldn't it overstimulate him? Should I spend the rest of this nap time trying to put him to sleep again?
6. Am I getting the clues correctly, or should I try to change his environment when he starts complaining 30, 40 mins after eating (I'm always afraid of losing the window!)

Sorry for the long, long text...!
 

[*Mona*]

He's 18 weeks now, and since last week our routine is a mess. Some of the problems I'm facing:
1. Everyday he wakes up a different time
2. His naps started to get REALLY shorter last week -
I don't know if I'm reading him wrong, because it looks like his A time is too short...
He also started some erratic wakenings in the night

hi
all your observations above suggest he's ready for a change in his routine. I think you should as soon as possible move him to 4hrs easy. here's the transition info link for you:  https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63161.0

to answer your Qs:

1. Could he be hungry, could this be a spurt of growth? 

well, yes it can. but more likely it's just his routine is not good for him anymore.

2. How can I extend his A time, if he starts to get tired, complaining and yawning - if I insist keeping him awake to reach 1,5h awake, wouldn't I miss the window?

1,5hrs is not enough. try keeping him up even longer, slowly getting to 2 hrs at a time. try low key activities like putting him under a mobile or reading to him or walking with him around the house etc.

3. Am I responding too soon in the nights wakenings? But I fear that if I let he be completely awake, then it will be much harder to calm him down...

you can always wait a bit longer one night and see if he can calm himself back down. if not- well, you should react.

4. Am I overstimulating him, and that's why he is sleeping less, and it's harder to put him to sleep? Or am I under stimulating him, so that he's not tired enough and he is resisting to sleep because he's not tired enough?

as saind before, I think he needs more A time so more stimulation.

5. What do I do when he wakes up 1,5h before next feeding time? Should I play with him - wouldn't it overstimulate him? Should I spend the rest of this nap time trying to put him to sleep again?

routine change should help.

6. Am I getting the clues correctly, or should I try to change his environment when he starts complaining 30, 40 mins after eating (I'm always afraid of losing the window!)

relax! he's no newborn now, he can get bored. easily. so yes, do try changing the environment and it should help as well.



hth and remember we're here if you need us

[Camila-Nina]

Tks for your prompt answer!
I've read the link, and I have some questions:
1. if he wakes up before feeding time (let's say, an hour before), should this hour count as part of the 2hs awake period? Or should it be 2hs after feeding time (so that he'll be 3hs awake) ??

2. he's been hungry sharply on 3hs mark, sometimes even before, crying - should I keep feeding him 3hs in the transition days? For instance, today's routine:
E 04h15
A -
S 04h25

E 07h00
A 07h10-07h40 (in his crib, alone w/his mobile)
S 07h40-09h20
'A' 09h20-09h50 (some play w/toys)

E 09h50
A 10h-11h10 (started to yawn, scratch his eyes)
S 11h10-11h45 (some smiles, then yawn and scratching again, put him back to sleep)
'S' 12h05-12h45

So, he was awake for almost 2hs in the morning, but split before and after eating... Is this correct?
I feel like the roadmap you gave me to transition would work much better if he was in the right 3hr EASY routine... but his is so confusing and non-predictable that I'm having a bad time trying to figure out how to do it...!!!!

One more question, to continue to discuss the same issue, is it correct to reply, like I'm doing now, or should I post a new topic?



 

[*Mona*]

hi

no need for a new topic, don't worry

I'd say EASAE pattern is VERY common when going through transition [and even after that] so don't worry and don't think you're doing sth wrong if he happens to have A time before a feed.

BUT actually I don't really understand your routine- what time do you consider the wake up time? is it around 9am? that A time from 9:20 to 11 looked good and great you managed to put him back to sleep after he woke up at 45 min mark. so, what happened for the rest of the day?

re feeding- if he's hungry- do feed him. but when you notice you can wait a bit, do wait.
it's not that easy but you'll make it

keep us posted
Monika

[NiknLily]

Hi I don't want to confuse things further so disregard if you think it will, but if hes really hungry at 3hrs have you thought about going onto a 3.5hr easy, my LO only really moved onto 4hr easy by about 6/7months I think it was, until then she was on a 3.5hr easy and it worked best for her.
There are sample routines for it somewhere but I'm not to sure where, perhaps Monika can point you in the right direction if you want to check them out.
I'm not sure either about what time you consider the start of his day and you don't say what time bedtime is, you here it so much here but it would be helpful for us to see a whole day to get a clearer view of things. 
newmum

[Camila-Nina]

Today's routine:
(PS: Yesterday he went to bed at 8 pm, and around 10 pm I gave him his DF)

E 04h15
A -
S 04h25

E 07h00
A 07h10-07h40 (in his crib, alone w/his mobile)
S 07h40-09h20
'A' 09h20-09h50 (some play w/toys)


Regarding his wake up time I know i'm out of the EAS routine in his first time, which used to be around 7am (now varies, since he is waking up in the middle of the night and sometimes he starts at 6, sometimes at - I usually don't do A time w/him, because I'm REALLY sleepy in the early morning... Do you think this could be disrupting his routine

Newmum, tks for your comments as well - regarding the 3.5hr easy, in the link Monika provided me has both routines!
E 09h50
A 10h-11h10 (started to yawn, scratch his eyes)
S 11h10-11h45 (some smiles, then yawn and scratching again, put him back to sleep)
'S' 12h05-12h45

E 1h
A 1h10-2h40
S 2h45-3h15 (crying, bad mood, put him back to sleep)
'S' 3h20-4h

E 4h
A 4h10-5h50
S 6h-6h30 (crying, bad mood, couldn't put him back to sleep)
'A' 6h30-7h

E 7h
A 7h10-8h30
S 8h30

[NiknLily]

Hi
I would say that short A time first thing is probably not helping his routine.  I know its not pleasant, my LO used to wake 7am on the dot but now its more like 6.15am and that 3/4hr really kills, but I would say you would be best to always 'start'  your day from when he wakes.  Don't include the 4.15am feed as thats just a nightwaking.  Obviously if he wakes at 5am then treat this also as a night waking but if he wakes at 6am then thats when I would start your day.  What I always did was bring my DD into bed with me in the mornings, still do, tho I cant get her to stay as long as she used to, she has too much she wants to do!  I always had a little selection of toys in my room and she would happily play with them till either it was time for her to go back to bed or I would get us up.

Now unless he wakes up screaming for a feed I would always try to hold of the first feed until say 7am that way you will know all through the day what time his next feed is due.  I would also suggest that if he wakes at 7am then bedtime should be no later than 7.30pm.  For example as he really started his day at 7am then 8.30 bedtime is a bit late, if he is overtired at bedtime this can cause him to wake even earlier the next morning.  In most cases an earlier bedtime helps stop early wake ups.

I would say he is definitely ready for new routine especially if he only wants a short nap in evening as when you switch to either 3.5 or 4hr you have just 2 long naps and a catnap, as opposed to 3 long naps and catnap of a 3hr routine.

The last thing I would say is that you don't need to have a specific amount of time after catnap in evening really it should be just enough time for bath feed winddown & bed.

got to go DD waking up, hope this is helpful
newmum x

[NiknLily]

False alarm!
One other thing, and this will depend entirely on your DS but although some babies need a gradual change when transitioning from one routine to another some find it easier if you just go cold turkey and and just jump straight to the new routine.  This is the case with my DD, trying to adjust slowly just got us both in a muddle, so in the end I just jumped right into the 3.5hr routine.  I guess it was easier as we only went from a 3 to a 3.5hr routine not a 4hr.  If you do go to a 3.5hr routine I found it worked best over a 12hr day not a 12.5hr day. So our day started at 7am and bedtime was 7pm, my LO A times were still quite short at this age but our day was something like this, if I remember correctly
7am E
8.45 S
10.30 E
11.15 S
1.00 E
2.45 S
4.30 E
5.15 catnap
6.00 E
bath
7.00 Bedtime
Hope this is of some help, now DD really is waking up.
newmum

[Camila-Nina]

OK, I think you're right, I'll start my day when he starts his... meaning, in his first E of the day.
But I have a lot of questions on night routine... using yesterday as an example, cause days are pretty much the same around here:

E 4h
A 4h10-5h50
S 6h-6h30 (crying, bad mood, couldn't put him back to sleep)
'A' 6h30-7h

E 7h
A 7h10-8h30
S 8h30-9h15
'A' 9h15 (couldn't put him back to sleep, stayed awake until DF - which was not exactly DF since he was AWAKE)

For him, it looks like his 'bedtime' is really 10pm when he really relaxes and let go, and not at 7 as it should be... our last A 7h10 till 8h30 is not really play time, its myself trying to put him to sleep! It looks like he is shifting his bedtime... I try to do it as a routine, he eats at 7, we slow down, have a quick bath to relax, and start trying to put him to bed. After 40 min I manage to get him to sleep, but he wakes up 30, 40 mins after that, like he is already waiting for next E time... What should I do then? Insist in keep him sleeping? This is almost like a nightwaking, as I understood from your last mail - at this time his day should already be over, right?

OH, this really looks difficult to me!!!

[MamaGleixner]

I know nothing, I'm just a new mom with a 4 month old that is thinking about transitioning to a 3.5 hour easy (my LO will not stay up more than 1.5 hours for A time, so the transition is going to be interesting)  I don't know how he is supposed to stay up for 2 hours between his wake up and his first nap - he barely makes 1.5!

In terms of his bedtime... What I do with my LO is start his bedtime routine early if he has awoken early. For instance, if he wakes at 6:30am, I endeavor to have him asleep by 6:30pm, which means starting his bedtime routine around 5:45pm - that seems early I know (my DH questions it all the time) but we have found if we leave it later he just gets overtired and it's hard on all of us.  This sometimes results in him waking up before his DF (which I do at 10:00pm) but if he does wake up I just do his DF then.

I know this is confusing, it was driving me crazy at first (still does sometimes) and I know I'm going to have a TON of questions about the 3.5 EASY when I get there, but try and listen to your LO and not worry about the times so much.  I know that's hard when everything is sorta based on timing.  I just started to watch him more and if he's tired in less than 1.5 of A time, so be it - I put him down for his nap.  If he's hungry in 2 hours (which sometimes happens) I feed him.  Yes, somedays it screws up the routine, but somehow it ends up working out.

I hate it when he naps for 30 min because it increases the amount of A time in his day which he doesn't handle well...

I've read that 30min naps mean they are overtired - but that doesn't help when you can't get them back to sleep after 30 min now does it!  Argh.

What I can tell you is that help and advice you get from these lovely ladies will be invaluable and will keep you on track when you want to give up.

HTH!!!

[Camila-Nina]

Girls, one more thing, how long do I insist when he has a early wake (either on naps or during the night)?
For example, if his nap lasted only 30 mins, instead of 1,5h, how long do I keep him in the crib shush-patting or singing, or everything? Because sometimes when he wakes up, he looks really AWAKE, and trying to keep him sleeping only gets him frustrated, and he starts shaking arms and legs and becomes even more AWAKE... and his cries get louder, and louder... like if he is getting really upset.
Same thing during the nightwakenings... how long do I try before giving up - and either picking him up, or feeding him ? I don't know how to use PU/PD, and the only time I've tried it was awfull, cause when I put him down I really hurt his feelings... that different king of cry that hurts us, you know (I don't know the word for it in english, sometimes I have a hard time writing in english, since I'm from Brazil).  
Do I stay with him all the time? Or do I keep in-out ?

Is this the regular behavior when a baby is resisting sleeping? Crying, shaking arms and legs...?

[NiknLily]

Hi
I can say fairly confidently that the reason you are having trouble putting him to bed is because he is overtired, as you said by 7-7.30 his day should be over.  His waking up after 30-40Min's after you have got him to sleep at night is also due to him being overtired the reason he finally gives in after his DF is because he is so exhausted by this point that sleep is all he can do by this time and his early wakings in the morning are also most likely caused by his going to bed overtired the night before.  Its a bit of a viscous circle.  Don't worry tho I had exactly the same trouble with my DD fro the first 3.5months until I started doing PU/PD. 

The first thing you need to do is start his day from as close to 7am as possible and even before you make the transition to longer routine get his bedtime to be no later than 7.30pm.  I would say until things settle and the time he wakes in the morning settles to really stick with a day no longer than 12.5hrs, so if he starts his day at 6am then for that day bedtime would be max 6.30pm.  If however he wakes at 7.30am still stick with the 7.30pm bedtime no later.  In this way you will start to set his body clock to wake and go to bed at roughly the same time every day.

With regard to nightwakings, yes unlike naps where you have limited time to keep trying to get them to sleep at night you just keep trying for as long as it takes.  Of course if he is genuinely hungry then you must feed him then keep trying to get him back to sleep.  When he wakes early from a nap you keep trying for the rest of the nap time.  I cant hold my hands up and say I actually used to do this tho as after a while maybe 30Min's she would start to get so frustrated that I knew there was no way she was going back to sleep, in this case get him up and keep it very low key, no stimulation, until its time for the next feed.  This will help him last longer after the feed.

PU/PD for his age is really quite effective, in my opinion, have a good read up on it, if you haven't the book it is in the sleep forums somewhere but I cant think where of top of my head, but it is there.  Its common for LO's to get very upset at first when doing PU/PD but your not being cruel and you haven't hurt his feelings, its just new and he doesn't understand what your doing or why.  Trust me tho they really do very quickly cotton on to what its all about.  The very basis of PU/PD is that it actually helps build the trust he has for you, as you PU and comfort him while he cries then lay him down to teach him that he goes to sleep on his own.  Once you have done it for a couple of days he will know that its time for sleep but if I struggle and get upset mummy will help me calm down again so I can try again to go to sleep.  When you are doing PU/PD you must stay with him the whole time in the room, which again builds the trust that you are always right there if he needs you.  Providing you read up on the technique and have an air of confidence that you know what you are doing and don't feel sorry for him he will relax into it in no time.  If you feel sorry for him he will sense it and it will upset him more as he wont understand why you are doing something thats upsetting you as much as him.  When you are doing PU/PD especially at night, be prepared get yourself comfy in his room you could be there several hours on the first few nights.  Its even suggested to wear ear plugs to help cope with the crying that he will do.

What you describe as him crying shaking his arms and legs is a frustrated baby who is most likely overtired as well.  A lot of the reason its suggested to swaddle LO's is that way they cant wave their arms and legs about so helping them stay calmer, the more they do it the more agitated/angry and frustrated they will get.

I do think that most of the problems you are having will be solved simply by getting him on the new routine.

Keep us posted how you get on and good luck with it all.  If you have any more questions just ask.  By the way your English is fantastic.

newmum x

[NiknLily]

I just had look there is a whole PU/PD forum in the Sleep forums.

[Camila-Nina]

Ladies,
Thank you so much for your support and encouragement words! It really means a lot when I feel like crying, or giving up!!!
 

Following your advice, I've decided to jump straight on 3,5h easy. And I've got some improvements in his routine, but on the other hand and I'm still struggling with short naps and nigth wakenings...

This weekend was like this:
Saturday:
E  7h55
A  8h10
S  9h10-10h30 (1h20 nap - good!!!)
E  11h25
A  11h35
S  12h25-1h50 (1h25 nap - good!!!)
E  3h00
A  3h10
S  3h45-4h05 (20 min  )
S   4h45-5h10 (25 min  )
E  6h30
A  6h40 (bath, little walk)
E  8h10 (cluster feed); started to try to put him 8h20...
S  8h50 (managed to antecipate the end of his day! He didn't wake up for DF! 

DF - 11h


SUNDAY
woke up at 5h30, managed to put him back to sleep at 6h00...
E  7h
A  7h10
S  8h30-9h (30' nap -  couldn't put him to sleep again)
A  9h-10h30 (low key activities)
E  10h30
A  10h40
S  1h-1h40 (40' nap -  couldn't put him to sleep again)
E  2h10
A  2h20
S  4h-5h30 (1h30, but after first 40' he kept waking up every 5 minutes )
E  5h30
A  5h40 (bath, little walk)
E  7h30 (cluster feed); started to try to put him 8h20...
S  7h45 (again managed to antecipate the end of his day! He cried around 10pm, I gave him his paci, back to sleep)

DF - 10h30

Some comments:
- bedtime is still very difficult, he cries a lot... I'm still insecure about PU/PD, I think I need to read more to feel more confident - I don't want him to feel my insecurity.
- naps are getting me crazy, he wakes up a lot, it's often very hard, if not impossible to get him to sleep again; and he wakes up in a terrible mood - I can see he is still tired. I'm being very carefull about overstimulating him, but still doesn't seem enough... What confuses me is that he usually wakes up sometime before next feeding time, so he's in a EASAE routine, and the sch gets messed up...

How long do you think I should wait before jumping into 4hr easy? He is handling the 3,5hr interval between E very well...

TIA!!!
-

[*Mona*]

hi

day 1 looked great, even with those 2 short catnaps. I'd actually let him be after that first one- you would have his bedtime sooner then. but still really really good.

day 2 - not consistent. first A time 1,5hrs [too short for him, that's why he only napped for 30 minutes], second A time 4hrs [too long, that's why he didn't nap long- he was too tired]. 3rd A time- good lenght, his catnap was perfect- babies his age don't need long late afternoon nap.

re PU/PD, yes, you need to be confident for it to work. so if you're not, try managing him at bedtime in some other way than PU/PD or you can actually make things worse.

now, if he's fine on 3,5 easy regarding feeds and 2hrs of activity- move him to 4 hrs. I wouldn't wait. but be prepared for really short catnaps [like 30-40min] and don't force him back to sleep once he awakens in the afternoon.

keep us posted,
Monika

[NiknLily]

Hi
I agree totally with what Majas Mom has said, Saturday looked great and if you had left the catnap at 20Min's and bought bedtime earlier I think you would of got him down for bed easier.  Sunday was not so good, remember that they can only stay awake max 2hrs at this age so if he wakes up 1hr before next feed then he will only be awake for 1hr after his feed.  I know this seems to through out your whole day but the best thing to do when this happens is just roll with it, put him down for his next nap early but only feed at 3.5hr mark. 

It is very hard to relax with it when it seems to get so messed up I was the same I would get so frustrated and cry, not knowing how I would get through the rest of the day but it does get easier and once his routine is back on track the early wake ups from naps etc should all but stop. 

Remember to totally follow his cues as long as he is not showing sleepy cues.  My DD never had very obvious sleep cues she would just suddenly be overtired so I know it can be hard, also she is a creature of habit and because for a long time she was used to an A time of 1.5hrs she would show her tired cues at this point but wouldn't nap well because she actually wasn't that tired, so I really had to force her to extend her A time, for her extending A time does not come naturally.

Another thing at his age unless you think he is going through a growth spurt it is probably not necessary to do the cluster feed, it will depend on him entirely but it may be worth stooping if your sure hes not going through a growth spurt, by the book, cluster feeds usually stop at 8/9weeks.

With regard to when to move onto 4hr, its up to him really you could try jumping up to it or you could wait for him to slowly move onto it.  As I said before we never really moved onto a 4hr, she did eventually end up on 4hrs but for her 3.5hrs worked well so I just left her to it and followed her cues on that one.  Its a judgement call only you can make.  As Majas mom said you are now only expecting him to have 2 long naps up to 1.5hrs and one catnap of max 45min.

keep us posted and you know where we are if you need us
newmum x

[Camila-Nina]

Hello!
Monika, some comments on your reply:
- his first A lasted only 1,5hrs because he was really tired, yawning and scratching his eyes. Should I insist in low key activities even when I sense his tiredness? I thought that this way he would be overtired and his naps would be shorter...
- I understand you're considering his 4hrs because he did like EASAE, right? This is one of the most difficult things for me, since he always wakes up long before his E time, the next A gets messed. Because after he eats, he gets awake... I forgot to mention that he had a catnap meanwhile (from 11h50-12h10). After that I kept trying to put him back to sleep, what I could only achieve at 1pm... But I see your point, the problem is that I feel I'm in a vicious circle, as new mum said... So, just to make things clear to me, the A activity in a EASaEa routine should account both small 'a' to reach the 1.5/2hs mark??
He now has 3 naps, being 1 in the morning around 9, another after lunch, around 12h30, and a catnap around 4pm. Sunday (and also today), his first nap was too short and I couldn't put him back to sleep. I think that this caused the whole day to be messed up... do you agree? Cause then his A time was long, his 2nd nap was short, and so on... I think that the only nap that is as should be is the 3rd (because it's meant to be short!).
Looks like I should learn to make his 1st nap last enough...
 

Today so far:
E  6h40 (woke up 6h15)
A  6h50
S  8h-8h50 (50' nap -   couldn't put him to sleep again; A-time: 1h45 right?)
A  8h50-10h10 (low key activities)
E  10h10
A  10h20
S  11h10-11h35 (25')
S  11h55-12h10 (15' - I gave up)
A  12h10
next E time will be 1h40 (it's 12h30 here in Brazil now).

New mum, he eats the cluster feed well... do you think it's worth not giving it and see how he goes?
Another question, do you think I should do the DF later, to see if he can start the day at 7am?

Thank you all so much!

[NiknLily]

Hi
yes the total A time in any one go should be no more than 2hrs, as you said both small 'a' should reach 2hrs max, this includes the time he spends eating as well.  I think of it as Awake time rather than Activity time.

I think I would try to eliminate the cluster feed and use it when he has a growth spurt, remember you need to try to up his intake during the rest of the day to compensate this.  I cant remember if you said you breast or bottle feed, its easy if hes bottle fed just put more in the bottle, if he is breast fed they say to increase the amount of time for each feed.  I breast feed and DD will only ever take what she wants at a time, if this is the case for your DS its a case of hoping that without it they increase what they take themselves as my DD did, but this happens after you drop the feed and for me couldn't be done before.  What you can try is to gradually reduce the amount he has at this feed or go cold turkey.

With regard to the DF don't do it any later than 11pm as this can interfere with their night sleep and cause more problems than it solves.  I always DF no later than 10.45pm just to be sure.

Re todays routine: when he went to sleep at 8am you are right it was A time of 1hr 45Min's. I think I would try going closer to 2hrs A time and see if that helps improve that first nap.  Your next A time was still too long which is probably why the second nap was not good at all.  He woke up at 8.50am so his next nap should of been no later than 10.50am, here you had real trouble because the first nap was a little too short (although getting better) and his next A time was 20Min's too long so he would of been overtired again.

I hope the rest of your day was better, things will improve again soon.
newmum x

[*Mona*]

new mum- great advice and you're right on the spot with Awake rather than Activity time. A time is all the baby is doing when he/she's not asleep.

so, how was the rest of the day for you, Camila? or is it Nina?

[Camila-Nina]

Hello, Girls !
By the way, name is Camila. But couldn't use as username (already used), so I added my nickname!

Well, it wasn't a very good day, you know... The most amazing thing I learned about babies, or at least about my baby, is that you try to do everything exactly the same way, and ends up with a totaly different result... 

Here goes my day:

E  6h40 (woke up 6h15)
A  6h50
S  8h-8h50 (50' nap -   couldn't put him to sleep again; A-time: 1h45 right?)
A  8h50-10h10 (low key activities)
E  10h10
A  10h20
S  11h10-11h35 (25')
S' 11h55-12h10 (15' - I gave up)
A  12h10 (awful mood, wouldn't go to sleep, took him out of his room, walked around the house; everytime I got closer to his room he started to cry, sensing I would put him back to bed; put him in his bouncing seat to watch me having lunch, got in an even worse mood, rocked him a little and he felt asleep);
S  1h25-1h55
E  1h55
A  2h05-4h
S  4h20-4h50 (didn't insist to get him back to sleep, per your advices!)
A  4h50-5h10
E  5h10
A  5h10-6h20 (talking, shantala, bath)
S  6h40
woke up 7h15 crying a lot, after 20 minutes of crying I decided to feed him.
(by the way I'm breastfeeding)

Some comments:
- I focused in making his day last 12hs, 12,5hs at most. Didn't work out, since he woke up after 30 mins of sleep, as if it was a nap, and not the end of his day.
- I tried to take out the cluster feeding. Don't know this has anything to do with his waking...
- sometimes the A time seems long (like in his 2nd A) because it takes me too much time to put him to sleep... I've thought about starting earlier, but before he gives me his clues he just gets very upset if I try to get him close to his room...
- around midday my day got completely out of my control!!! Should I have antecipated his next E and put him to sleep after? Or was it right to make him rest a little?

I really cannot recognize my DS, he is almost all the time in a bad mood, crying and asking for company, lap...
But... I won't give up.
(I think  )
 

[NiknLily]

Camilla
So sorry this is proving so hard to sort out.  I think you are right he was expecting his cluster feed when he woke up after bed time.  I still think the reason he is waking after being in bed for 30-40Min's at bedtime is because he is overtired due to poor naps in day, so thats what you really need to focus on sorting.  With regard to his cluster feed maybe try to reduce it slowly if he has both sides maybe only offer one side or cut it back to 5Min's then 3 then try to stop over course of maybe a week until he begins to increase day feeds to compensate for not getting good cluster feed.

OK, so his A times, I think if I was you I would go back a bit and try shorter times, for maybe just one day.  Stick with 3.5hr eating routine but try going back a little and see what happens it may help you pinpoint exact;y how long A time he can cope with. I know we have been telling you to extend but maybe he needs to extend slower.  One thing to remember is that most LO's are more tired in the morning and have a shorter A time than the rest of the day, you would think after being in bed all night it would work the other way but for a lot it doesn't.  It really can be a lot of trial and error when you change from one routine to another.

With regard to him getting upset when he thinks its nap time as you approach his room, this is either of 3 things, either he really isn't ready for sleep and is telling you "no I don't want to sleep yet" or maybe because of the trouble you are having he is beginning to get bad associations with his bedroom.  Or maybe he is already overtired and knows he wont be able to sleep as you want him to so is getting upset about that.  What is your wind down routine how long do you take? and what do you do when trying to get him back to sleep?  Whatever technique you use, remember that by repeatedly trying to get him to sleep for maybe 15Min's then giving up he is beginning to learn that if he makes enough fuss you will give in and get him up, so you are actually teaching him to make a fuss to get his own way.

I am so sorry your DS is being so upset clingy and grumpy, its most definitely because he is getting more and more overtired all the time.  It is so hard this transition for some and yet so easy for others.  Good on you though for being determined not to give up, keep in mind how good it was on EASY before he reached this stage and know that once we have it cracked it will be as good again.

Keep focusing on making his day no longer than 12.5hrs between wake up in am and bedtime.  Bear in mind that once in bed even if they do wake up after 30Min's and you have to cluster feed this is a night waking not an extension of his day.  Always put him straight back down after the cluster feed and feed with little or no talking and lights down very low or off if possible so he knows this is not the time to interact with mummy.

I think I would of tried to get a little sleep out of him too at midday just to try to prevent the cycle of overtiredness getting too far.  In fact what I did when our day got messed up was just to say to myself "OK so today is not a good day I will start a fresh tomorrow as I mean to go on" that way it helped me to relax about it all and not stress, as a stressed mummy makes for a stressed baby!

One last thing, I'm sure you have already considered but is he well, could he have anything wrong with him that might be upsetting his sleep and making him clingy? just a thought.

Keep posting together we will get him sorted!  speak to you again soon.  Got to get DD up and take her to doctors for a nasty injection, today should be fun!

Nicola (newmum)

[Camila-Nina]

Hi, Nicola!
How was your day w/your DD Did you have the fun you were expecting?!?!?

To get extra-streght to keep going, yesterday I spent the day reading BWSAYP... Specially the charpter where she says that if it isn't working, there's something wrong in my attitude, or in my beliefs, or in the way I'm doing it. And I realized that's the problem, I'm not quite sure about the timing to put him to bed, so I may be confusing wind down w/rocking, and sometimes I put him to bed completely awake, others he's still in the 2nd or 3rd stage of sleep, and finally there are times when I put him already asleep... this is probably something that confuses him, right? And you're completely right, there are naps that I give up - either because I'm tired of trying for 40 minutes, either because it's already time for him to eat. So he never knows when crying will get him out of the crib or not...

Anyway, yesterday I returned to the cluster feed, and bedtime went smoothly. He only woke up today at 6h45. So I think that we're fine in the night. Additionally, at night I always put him to bed awake, and he manages to fall asleep by himself... sometimes he does complain and cry a little, but it doesn't last 2 minutes.
I really should concentrate now in naps. I was thinking about using the transition plan, I mean, just observe him for 2 days, putting him to bed when I get his clues, regardless the time, and then defining if he's ready for a 3,5hr or 4hr easy. And then jump into it! Like starting fresh... Maybe it will give me the energy required to get everything on the track again!!

Regarding your questions, wind down routine usually is taking him in his stroller for a walk along the garden in the building we live in... sometimes I walk w/him around the house, sometimes I do some rocking in his bedroom... I've tried to sit w/him and sing, or tell stories, but he's started to get upset and agitated...
And I've thought about teeth, but besides that, I don't think there's anything wrong with him... but I'll be w/his doc this week and ask him about it...

And THANK YOU so much for your support and kind words!!!!
It's been REALLY helpful!!!!!
hugs,
Camila

[NiknLily]

Hi Camilla
We went to doctors, sat waiting for 1/2hr went in only to be told she doesn't need the injection until she is at least 12months, I wasn't impressed.  It was a course of 3 injections which at the first one I was told would be 2months between each one, which is why i made the appointment for the last one as it had been 10 weeks already since middle one.  this was wrong apparently so we had a wasted visit.  Oh well at least it was a positive visit to the doctors with no nasty associations for DD.  Poor little mite tho, at 12 months she has to have Dip injection then 2weeks later this one we went for other day then 2 weeks later at 13months its MMR so the first month of her 2nd year isn't going to be very nice, I just hope she has no bad reactions to any of them.

It sounds like you have renewed confidence now and have got a good plan sorted in your head of how you are going to approach this change in routine, so thats great. 

One thing I was told about wind down routines is as they get older you need to spend less time doing the wind down, so bear this in mind.  I guess as they get older and start to know what is expected at nap and bedtimes if you take too long getting them ready for it they will get frustrated at the fact that you have not put them to bed so they can fall asleep.  I would say always do exactly the same windown at naps and bedtime, in your case as bedtimes seem no problem use the same technique at nap times, consistency is the key thing.  I think by his age I was simply taking DD upstairs telling her its nap time, getting her ready (clothes wise), wrapping her in her blanket (now use sleep sack but same principal) hold her while i sing lullaby, always the same one, then saying night nights baby, love you sleep tight as I lay her down and walking away.  it takes probably no more than 5mins.  Only if she was excited by a visiting relative or some new skill she had mastered would I spend extra time doing the walking about first to calm her down but again not for too long, just long enough to slow her little mind down to a more suitable pace for sleep.

I really hope all goes well, I'm sure it will.  Remember we are here if you need us. 

Nicola