Problems transitioning nearly-5mth old to 4 hour EASY

[violagal]

Hi all,
This is feeding/sleeping/napping all rolled into one so figured this was the right place to put it...I hope!

Our DS is 21.5 weeks - turns 5 months on Tuesday.

We used to have him on a 3.5 hour EASY with 5 feeds before bedtime (last two close together) then put him down at 7 and let him wake naturally for a NF which he did around 3-4am.

About 2 weeks ago his appetite went haywire, for a few days he refused to eat more than 3oz per feed but of course was then hungry 3 hours later and then wanted two night feeds around 12 and 5. Here he was taking between 22-25oz a day.  So we put in a dreamfeed at 11 so that it was only one NF and that first night he actually slept to 6.30am! However subsequent nights it went back to 4am and then 3.30am where it has pretty much stuck.
His daytime appetite has now increased exponentially and the last 2-3 days he's taken 45oz. Last night was the most bizarre, he took 9oz at bedtime feed 6.30pm, took 7oz at 11 dreamfeed then 6oz at 2.30!!! He had taken 5x7oz feeds during the day as well at between 2.5-3hours so feel like we've lost control!
I've been reading BWSAYP where she says it's a common mistake to go back to 3hourly feeds at this age and what they need is a 4 hour EASY however he generally won't take more than 7-8oz per feed so unsure how to stretch them?
So then onto the napping - our mornings start well. We get up at 7am and have a feed (which isn't always great if he's taken a ton overnight), then some activity until 8.45-9 and then nap. However this is always a 30-45min nap. I've tried sh/pat and pu/pd back to sleep but to no avail, he seems amused and thinks this is a new play activity! I've left him in his cot after waking to see if he'll go back to sleep and he'll happily chat to himself for about 15-20 mins when he starts shouting as he gets bored. It just seems like he doesn't need any more sleep? So he gets up around 9.30, we play some more, try to feed as near 11 as possible but then by 11.30 he's knackered and zonks out for another 45 mins. There have been a couple of occasions where he has slept for 1.5-2 hours here but it is always after he has had a lot of activity so either after baby swimming or an hour's playgroup. It continues like that all day, will nap again somewhere between 2-3 and then between 4.30-5.30.
Other info - he is formula fed, weighed 7.4kg 2wks ago.
I would be happy to attempt Tracey's plan (pages 44-45) to get him to a 4hr routine but because he won't stay awake past 11.30-11.45 latest we sort of fail at the first hurdle as I simply cannot get him to stay awake until 12.40 as suggested.
Any advice gratefully received!

[Ima shel Alon]

The suggested EASY in the book is just that, a suggestion, an example. I think what Tracey was trying to say in that, that you should get your baby onto a good A and that will result in good naps, better BT and better night sleep.
It sounds that your LO is ready for a little bit more A time. Have a look here: Average A times and "Is my baby ready to increase A time?"
What are A times and how do they fit into the EASY routine?
When he is on a better A hopefully your naps will be better as well and that will naturally space the feedings.
When you are upping the A you do it gradually, by 10-15min every 3-4 days and you'd need to stick to the new A for those days to prevent him from getting OT and give him enough time to get used to it. He might seem very tired in those extra 10min and in the first couple of days he might give you OT naps (30-35min) but that's not something we can avoid, I am afraid.
About the NF, I remember that when DS hit 5m I could swear he suddenly took so much more from his bottle and he woke up more at night for it. I asked in the birth club here and other mommies said the same and we came to the conclusion that this is a GS that is not mentioned in any book, lol .
I let DS have a few days of it, because he seemed truly hungry and then after a week or two I started to wean the NF. I am not saying you need to do the same, that's what was right for us and I also knew that DS is ready, yk? I increased his bottle by an oz every 3 nights and the last oz I mixed with less and less powder, then offered just water and he stopped waking for it. Sometimes he still had NW which I settled with pat/shh.
HTH .

[violagal]

Hi Ima, thanks for the links, looks like I can definitely attempt increasing A time. Will try 2h10-2hr15 for the next couple of days and see how we get on.
The night feed is just madness isn't it! Sometimes it seems like his little tummy hasn't even registered the dream feed at all when he then wakes again at 2.30!
I had thought about capping the night feed so might attempt that also once he stops taking a full bottle and decrease by an oz every 3 nights - sounds very sensible as this lo is not a quick adapter!
Very helpful advice thanks!

[Ima shel Alon]

Let me know how you are doing .

[violagal]

Hi there,
Well things have certainly changed the last couple of days. First day I woke him up at 7 and fed him. He then start to get drowsy around 8:50 but I kept him awake until 9:10. He woke up bright as a button 40 mins later so I got him up, started playing with him again but after only 20 or so minutes he started yawning and getting cranky so I put him down and after 5 mins of shh/pat he fell asleep again! He woke up after 45 mins by which point it was 11.15 and he was starving and took 7oz in 15 minutes. So this looks like progress if he had two naps in the morning? He did the same this morning, two full 45 minute naps separated by half an hour and lasted until 11 for his second feed.
The afternoons have remained the same, he still got hungry around 2-2.30 but from what I've read it's ok to just work on extending one feed for a few days first?
 

[Ima shel Alon]

The afternoons have remained the same, he still got hungry around 2-2.30 but from what I've read it's ok to just work on extending one feed for a few days first?

Yes, you can do it if you want to do it slowly.
I am happy that there is already progress with the morning feeds. It will take him a few more days to get used to the new A (2:10), if after those few days he is still napping short in the morning then I would up it by 10min more, but not more than that for now. It sounds like he still does 2 UT naps in the morning.

[violagal]

Thanks Ima, glad it is progress! Will keep an eye on the A time. If the second nap is also UT should I try and stretch that a little too? The reason I didn't is so I had enough time for a an before the next feed.
Regarding the night feedings however things are firmly stuck - we feed him at 22:45 (sometimes its a dream feed, other times he wakes up) and he takes a full feed. He then wakes up at 2:30 almost on the dot now which seems a) like a habit and b) far too soon? I mean waking up at 4 would seem ok. I have capped it the last 3 nights to 90ml but last night he seemed really uncomfortable on waking and then filled his nappy before wanting any so I'm wondering if perhaps the late feed is just causing him discomfort? He is then happy to wait until 7-7.30 for his morning feed so no waking up starving which really does make me think he doesn't need it but he makes so much noise when he wakes up and goes for the bottle like a little baby bird that I always think differently at the time!

[Ima shel Alon]

At this age I still think it's ok to have a DF and another feed, you have a very good stretch there from 2:30 till the morning, so I would think if he wakes up then it's hunger.

[violagal]

Hi, an update from us! So it looks like his naps have now shrunk to 30minutes! I know that indicates OT rather than UT so I reduced the A time again but no change on the naps. On the plus side feeding has got a lot better and more consistent during the day and at night we decided to drop the late feed and let him wake naturally and those feeds are stretching out and the second one was only 2 oz last night.

It's odd to me as he's so good at bedtime, we never have any issues and he goes to sleep 7-7.30 for 4-5 hours straight so I cannot work out why he doesn't do it during the day?!

I think he is teething at the moment so wonder if that would make short naps?

So yesterday's EASY was:
6am wake up
7am feed - 7oz
7.55am sleep. Woke after 30 mins so left in cot to see if he would go back to sleep but didn't. Was quite happy there for 20minutes chatting and touching his toes!
8.25-10.15 activity, playtime
10.15 sleep again this time 35 mins. Left him on wakeup but no more sleep.
11am feed - 8oz
12.15-1 sleep in buggy
2-2.30 sleep in buggy
3pm feed 8oz
4.15-5 sleep
Bedtime routine, bath, bottle (8oz)
7pm sleep
12 feed 6oz
4am feed 2oz
630 wakeup

[Ima shel Alon]

Not for all babies 30-35min naps would be OT, for some they are UT and another way to know if a nap is UT or OT is by the WAY the baby wakes up - is he crying or chatty?
It sounds from what you are saying that your LO wakes up quite happy and can even be left alone in the cot for a while after waking - an OT baby won't do that. So I think he might be ready for some more A time,I would increase it to 2:00h, then 2:15h A time for a few days and if you still get short naps then I'd go to 2:30h A time.

[violagal]

Ahh ok so he still be UT. Will try increasing again and see how we go. So if I aim for 2h15 but he still only does 30mins how long should the next time be?
Last night was great - he slept from 7.10pm - 1.20am, took a full 8oz and then went back to sleep until 6.30 definitely think the DF just doesn't work for him

[Ima shel Alon]

Yeah, that's ok then, DF doesn't work for all babies. After a short nap it's better to give less A time, perhaps 15min shorter, but just keep in mind that some babies need a full A after a short nap to get them to nap well (DS was like that ).

[violagal]

Hi Ima,
An update from us
Feeding times have stretched quite nicely now and his bottle feeds are 7, 11, 2.45-3 and then 6.30. Sometimes he gets cranky before bath time so we give a couple of ozs around 5.30. He then feeds once in the night anywhere between 12 and 4.
Naps I had thought were a lost cause as I had been trying to extend A time but not getting past 45mins. Ten 3 days ago purely by accident we had him up for about 2hrs40 as we were going to visit my parents so wanted him to sleep in the car and we got a 2 hour nap!! I couldn't believe it. Did the same yesterday and this morning and had 1.25-1.5 hour naps so clearly he needed a LOT more A time! Plus he gets tired and cranky at the 2 hour mark, rubs his eyes etc but if I distract him for a few minutes he gets a second wind.
So a couple of things - I have to work on the second nap a bit as that has been 45mins (probably. I was so excited about the long morning nap!) but if these naps worked I would have to cut them short to meet feeding times - so if it is 2hr 40 then easy would look like below, are the naps long enough? It then leaves 4 hours to bedtime so will still need a catnap?
E 7am
S 940-11
E 11 (offer solids at 12)
S 140-3
E 3 (offer solids at 4/5)
S catnap somewhere between 5.30-6??
6 bath
E 645
7-730 bed

And then once his A reaches 3 hours the nap is only one hour is that right? As he'll sleep between 10-11 and then 2-3?

[Ima shel Alon]

And then once his A reaches 3 hours the nap is only one hour is that right? As he'll sleep between 10-11 and then 2-3?

No, no, no. We are not capping naps at this age at all. At 5m a baby still has 2x1.5h nap + a CN a day. There is no need for you to shorten naps, you simply feed when your LO wakes up. So if he wakes at 15:10 instead of 15 which used to be your feeding time, then you feed him at 15:10. As your LO grows older his A time increases, naps are still 1.5h each and the gaps between feeds can grow.
At around 6m your LO will be able to do 3h A time (some babies take a bit longer to get to that, some get to it earlier) and then it's probably time to drop the CN. This is a very good source of information: All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months
So when he is 6m old he'll have 2x1.5-2h naps, you don't cap them.

It does sound like you made a huge progress already! Do you want to give me more info about the second nap so we can try and tweak things so it's a full nap? What is the A time before it - between the good morning nap and the second nap?

[violagal]

Ahhhh ok that makes sense. My only thought is that if I don't wake him at 11 for his second bottle he's likely to wake himself anyway so if he's doing between 2h40-3h A time then that nap will be too short? I imagine they can last until 11.30 if they have solids in the morning which we haven't quite got to yet. I suppose there's no harm in leaving him until he wakes.
To be honest the last couple of days I haven't really noticed the second A time but today I did - it was 4 hours!!!
Today was:
Wu 640
E 7 milk
S 915-1035
E 1045 milk
E 1230 solids
E 1500 milk
S 1530-17
E 1700 solids

I couldn't believe he stayed up for four hours - we had visitors so they were a distraction but he wasn't grumpy or cranky at all until he got hungry for his milk at 3 and then shortly after that crashed out. Again there were some tired signs, yawns, eye rubbing but then he'd be smiling and laughing - like he's now learned how to ignore his tiredness!
Yes please to helping with the second nap - If the first one works again should I try the same amount of A time for the second one?