My 10 month old stopped falling asleep on her own

[Lizziesmum]

My little girl will turn 10 months old tomorrow and has not been able to sleep on her own for the last 2 months. When she was 2 months old, she was as good as gold, sleeping on her own, in her own room, and we didn't even tried any sleep training. Then I took her to China to meet my families when she was 6 months old and she was co-sleeping with me for 7 weeks. Ever since, she hasn't been able to go back to where she used to be, sleep wise. I tried to make her sleep in her cot but failed.

This is what I have been trying to do in the last 10 days:

She has dinner between 7 and 7.30, then play for half an hour before i give her a bath. i put her to cot between 8.30 and 9 and spend about an hour reading stories, playing peekaboo or other gentle games, with me sitting next to her cot. as soon as she started to show signs of sleepiness, ie rubbing eyes, yawning, i started to put her down. this is where she started crying. As soon as i lay her flat in the cot, she will get on her feet straight away and cries. she will hold onto the crib wanting to be picked up. I just put her down again and repeat until she goes to sleep.

It took me 45 minutes for the first night (and she did cry for 45 minutes) but reduced to 10 minutes by the end of the fifth day. However this is all going well for the initial bed time. The really tricky part kicks in as night goes on. I struggle to follow through for night time wakes. I find it so hard to watch her cry for sometimes an hour at 2 am! I know what I am supposed to do but have found it very hard to implement the "put down" method at night. What also didn't help was that I became so exhausted by the end of the first week (my husband is away at the moment so I am doing this on my own) I couldn't get up at night so had to get her into my bed in the end so that we both could have some sleep. And this has caused regression unfortunately and night time waking gets worse.

Any advice or suggestion? I am going AC to work soon so I am getting quite frustrated about this now. Please help!

[Erin M]

Can you post your daytime routine?  It could be that a tweak in your day would make a big difference at night.

[Lizziesmum]

Hi Erin,

Thanks for willing to help us.

I am glad that you asked me her day time routine because I have been wondering if it is the problem as she hasn't got a strict routine. The issue is that she wakes up at random hours, could be anything between 6.30 and 9! It really depends how well she sleeps the night before. However I have noticed since I started working on her routine a week ago, she now seems to wake up around 7 or 7.30 for the last few days.

Anyhow, her current day time routine goes like this (if you can call this a routine):

get up at 7 or 7.30
breakfast an hour later
go to local library or childrens centre in the morning
first nap can be anything between 10.30 and 12.30 (depends on if we go to any play group which could delay her nap time) for 45 minutes - she wakes up after 45 minutes
then lunch between 1 and 2
then play with me or we visit friends in the afternoon
second nap could be anything between 4 and 6 - depends on what time we get home
then dinner at 7 or 7.30
play for half an hour after dinner followed by bath time
I put her in her cot around 8.30
We play and sing or read books for an hour before she falls asleep typically between 9.30 and 10.

[Erin M]

I would say the routine probably has a lot to do with her wakings.  Really you want to shoot for a 13 hour day and a 11 hour night -- with 2 naps during the day going on about 4 hours of A time -- I'd say you need to be consistent for a good week or so to see something work out too. You might also be at the point where you would do one longer and one shorter nap.  There's some info here to look at about the nap switch that you're probably in the beginning of 10 to 12 mth old Sleep Gone Wonky, and the 2 - 1 Nap Switch .

Is she eating at night at all?  Does she fall asleep independently?

[Lizziesmum]

Hi Erin,

Thanks for your advice.

I have started to nap for an hour and a half to two hours late morning and then a shorter one in the afternoon say 45 minutes around 4pm. I will keep doing it for at least a week and see if it changes anything. To be honest, when my daughter woke up from 2 hours nap earlier today, she still looked so tired I don't know why.

Is she eating at night at all?

I have stopped nursing her or giving her other food/milk once she goes to bed since a week ago. I used to nurse her every time when she woke up up to a week ago when I started the sleep training. She doesn't fall asleep without being nursed so it has been very hard for the last week to make her go back to sleep at night without giving her milk.

Does she fall asleep independently?

She used to but not any more. As I mentioned in the first post, she lost the ability since we got back from the trip to China as we were co-sleeping most of the time there. At the moment, I had to do the PD and pat her gently until she falls asleep at night and during the day. There were only a handful occasions in the past few days when she literally fell asleep on her own, i.e. without me patting her but I was still doing the PD and sitting next to her cot.

Hope this answers your questions.

[Erin M]

She could be making up for some accumulated overtiredness so she might be more tired for a few days -- the routine during the day should help.

I would keep working on independent sleep with using PD -- she should get it if you persist.  Getting those naps in during the day will help too as she's probably very OT at night when you put her to bed..  With my LOs, we did bath, pajamas, and then a couple of stories, I'm wondering if you're nighttime routine is a little too long. 

She's probably ok at night without eating, but I understand that it's hard!  Hang in there!

[Lizziesmum]

Hi Erin,

Thanks for the advice. I am getting her into the following day time routine and we have been working on it since Saturday.

Up at 7 (she wakes up naturally)
Breakfast at 8
Play
Nap at 10.30 for around 2 hours or just less than that until she wakes up herself. Should I wake her earlier?
Lunch after nap around 1 or 1.30
Nap 3.5 hours after the morning nap
Dinner around 6.30 or 7
Bath at 7.30
Nurse and Get in the cot by 8
Aim to get her to sleep by 9 - at least we managed to do that last night

Is this a sound routine Erin?

However last night was terrible. She woke literally every 45 minutes to an hour. Worse than before we started PD! I don't know why. Do you think it could be UT because I put her to bed an hour earlier than usual? But she looked very sleepy by 8.30 anyway. The only positive part was that it didn't take me too long to get her back to sleep each time, about 5 to 10 minutes and she didn't cry too much. It was more of a cry out of frustration ( of not being able to going back to sleep).

I dread to think of tonight (sigh)

[Lizziesmum]

Sorry but I forgot to respond to your comment on her bed time routine. I have noticed it is longer than other babies' but Lizzie just seems to have got so much energy that she won't settle without playing in her cot for an hour! Do you think this might be that she is OT or UT?

[Erin M]

How long is your second nap?  I'd let her nap as long as she wants in the morning and cut that second one at about 45 minutes or so and see what you get from there.  She could be UT at bedtime - depends - on what her afternoon looks like. 

What's her temperament?  Does she seem to be more spirited to you? 

What's her milk intake look like during the day?

The waking every 45 minutes could be a couple of things -- could be OT in the first part of the night, could be some sort of discomfort, or could be some sort of a prop issue going on -- maybe she's just used to nursing back to sleep and is trying to get used to going without it?  How did you get her back to sleep when she woke?  Is she doing a full on "I need you" cry or is it more of a mantra cry?

[Lizziesmum]

Hi Erin,

First of all, apologise or not getting back to you until now. I was going to try few things out for few days before get back to you but then my little girl fell ill.

How long is your second nap? It can be 45 minutes to an hour and 15 minutes. Recently, she has started delaying her morning nap from 10.30 to 11.30 which means she will stay awake for 4.5 hours and sleep for nearly 2 hours. Unfortunately this did put pm nap to around 5 which doesn't help put her to bed early as I also started to get her to bed by 7 or 7.30 a week ago.

What's her temperament?  Does she seem to be more spirited to you?  She is quite lively and sprited.

What's her milk intake look like during the day? I feed her just before she gets out bed in the morning, then before afternoon nap, and before she goes to bed. At night, I feed her around 4am when she wakes up as I have found harder to put her to sleep at those hours without nursing her.

The waking every 45 minutes could be a couple of things -- could be OT in the first part of the night, could be some sort of discomfort, or could be some sort of a prop issue going on -- maybe she's just used to nursing back to sleep and is trying to get used to going without it? Yes I think so.

 How did you get her back to sleep when she woke?  I will always start with trying to calm her by rubbing her tummy and shhing. If she doesn't go back to sleep and gets on her feet, I will start PD. if she gets too upset, I will pick her up then PD again once she calms down or may even try to nurse her in the worst scenario.

Is she doing a full on "I need you" cry or is it more of a mantra cry? This is what normally happens. She gets to her feet, holding the side of her cot, asking for me. At this point, not a full on "I need you" cry. If I leave her to see if she an settle herself, say for 5 minutes, the crying will typically develops into a full scale, at which point, I will go in. Sometimes just to avoid such development meaning she will be wide awake by then, I will just go in as soon as she wakes.

Hope I have answered your questions.

[Erin M]

It can be 45 minutes to an hour and 15 minutes. Recently, she has started delaying her morning nap from 10.30 to 11.30 which means she will stay awake for 4.5 hours and sleep for nearly 2 hours. Unfortunately this did put pm nap to around 5 which doesn't help put her to bed early as I also started to get her to bed by 7 or 7.30 a week ago.

Can she do 4.5 hours in the PM as well?  If she sleeps from 11:30-1:30 you could just do an early BT around 6/6:30  as if she's doing 4.5 hours and then a 2 hour nap you've pretty much run out of time for that second nap.

Is she still waking every 45 minutes at night? 

[Lizziesmum]

On the day when she nap for 2 hours around mid day, as you said, I too find squeezing in another nap in the pm hard therefore I tend to stretch her a bit in the afternoon and try to let her go to bed early. For example, yesterday, she went to bed at 18.40 but was very tired by then. Then she was probably very OT so ended up waking up every hour through the night. It was terrible as she was also screaming so badly each time. I had to nurse her couple of times just to help her get some sleep. It was very hard to listen to her cry so badly. I therefore decided to go back to 2 naps routine today. She was up at 6 am and napped 9.30-11.30 and 4-5. She fell asleep at 8 tonight and first waking was at 10.15. Fingers crossed for the rest of the evening. i will let you know how it goes tomorrow.

[Erin M]

Oh dear, that's not a good solution then.  Do you think you could try to get a nap in her earlier than her usual time so you could preserve a longer A before bed?  Is there somewhere that she's guaranteed to sleep, like the car or something -- you might try to get a 20 minute nap in her a touch earlier.  Or will she not have that? 

I hope you have a good night!  Any chance of discomfort by the way -- molars/eye teeth moving around -- those have been particularly brutal with all of mine. 

[Lizziesmum]

Hi Erin,

Last night was a bit better. She woke every two hours until 4 this morning then every hour after that. It did take me long at all to get her back to sleep each time and she didn't cry much at all all night. Attached is yesterday's routine. I wonder I should stick to t for a few days.

Up 6
Eat 7 cereal
Sleep 9.30 - 11.30
Eat 1.30 chicken, toast, fruit
Sleep 4.-5.15
Eat 6.30 beef, veg, toast, fruit
Bath 7.15
Bed 7.40
Sleep 8 (i didnt try any particular echnique but just play with her while she is in her cot and talk/sing to her. No PD, not even once. She fell asleep by herself)
she then slept 8-10.15 (took me 5 min to put her back to sleep, no crying, no PD), 10.20-12 (nursed briefly as worried her throat might be dry), took 5 min to settle and a further 15 min to asleep (her eyes were open from time to time think she was checking my presence, 2 PD this time) 12.20-2 (nursed briefly, 1 PD), 2.15-4.20 (nursed, no PD), 5-5.45 (no PD), 6-7. Up at 7.

Few questions -

1 should I wake her at the same time everyday just to keep her routine? For instance, if yesterday's routine turns out to be a winner, shall I wake her at 6 everyday? She just didn't seem to be ready to get up at 6 this morning plus it would have only given her less than 9 hours sleep.

2 should I go for earlier bed time eg 6.30 or later one eg 8?

3 she only gets 12 and a half hours sleep from the above routine which is less than 14 hours sleep they need at her age. Unless she starts to sleep through nights, this is the best she can get. I am worried she will get OT over the time and insufficient sleep might hinder her physical development in the long run. Should I be?

Thanks.

[Lizziesmum]

Yes Erin, she is teething too! I give her bonjela. Also her nose might be a bit blocked. She just recovered from a fever she had a few days ago.

[Erin M]

1 should I wake her at the same time everyday just to keep her routine? For instance, if yesterday's routine turns out to be a winner, shall I wake her at 6 everyday? She just didn't seem to be ready to get up at 6 this morning plus it would have only given her less than 9 hours sleep.

Some people do, I never did with any of mine -- I think you're probably playing a bit of OT catch up right now and it might be more important to get the sleep in her then repeat the routine -- as long as you can keep to the same A times.  If you're working around something fixed in your schedule, then I would wake her at the same time just to be sure.

2 should I go for earlier bed time eg 6.30 or later one eg 8?

With her waking at 6, I would go for the earlier one -- it gives you a couple of advantages -- you're trying to help her learn that she needs a good long stretch of sleep at night, when you do early bed time, it can shift early morning wakings into night wakings where they're sometimes a little bit easier to deal with, and it pushes you further along on the 2-1 -- and getting down to 1 nap is the eventual goal in all this madness. 

3 she only gets 12 and a half hours sleep from the above routine which is less than 14 hours sleep they need at her age. Unless she starts to sleep through nights, this is the best she can get. I am worried she will get OT over the time and insufficient sleep might hinder her physical development in the long run. Should I be?

We have such a tendency to worry about everything with our babies.  Mine all went through periods where I felt like they just couldn't be getting enough sleep to keep their little bodies going (ds is actually there right now, he's got a cold and is trying to shorten his nap to crazy short lengths!) -- it all seemed to even out as time went on.  If you have serious concerns, by all means talk to you doctor about it but my sense is that she'll be ok. 

I give her bonjela. Also her nose might be a bit blocked. She just recovered from a fever she had a few days ago.

That's a lot going on!  She could be waking when the meds wear off as the night goes on.  My sense from what you've posted is that you should stick with what you've got for a few days and see if your nights keep evening out.  You might try something stronger for the teething pain (entirely up to you, I found with dd1 I gave her meds all the time and the other two not so much!) -- I think you will eventually need to focus on nursing less at night as that might turn into a prop, but with the illness/stuffy nose/teeth, it's probably just all about comfort right now. 

[Lizziesmum]

Hi Erin,

Many thanks again for your advice. I wonder what time zone you live in as you posted at 2am!

Last night was another waking every 2 hours and she was up at 6.30 this morning, after max 9 hours sleep. Think I will stick to what I have got to for a bit longer to see if anything changes at night as you suggested too. Will keep you posted.

Hope your little one gets well soon!

[Erin M]

Ha!  I'm in EST, think I posted at about 9:30 our time!  Still fighting that nasty cold here!
Let us know how you get on.

[Lizziesmum]

Hi Erin,

Apologies it took me so long to reply. Since our last communication back to early February, Lizzie's sleep was testing worse by the end of February despite she managed to have few longer (but not long enough) stretches at night. For example, the longest was 4 hours. However on he same night she could still wake up after 45 minutes more than once, and at random hours - I wasn't able to find any pattern- it got to a point I was up ten times a night and barely got any sleep.

I think there were few reasons behind (and there might be more):
1. Because I had been doing this on my own quite a bit (as my husband was away at that time), I physically got so exhausted and particularly in early hours of the morning I.e after 3, I just couldn't follow through and be consistent after few weeks of trying. This obviously might have caused confusion to my little one.

2. For some reason, when my husband put our girl to bed, she was never fussy and it generally took him less time to settle her than it did to me. She was always fighting so hard with me and would not go down until i nursed her. i wonder if she just associated me with feeding. I tried not to feed her at night but when I was too exhausted to follow through in the early morning, I unfortunately did few times and that just made things worse.

My husband and I were so tired by this point and our little girl was not getting the rest too. she often looked tired in the morning and less happy during the day. we therefore decided to try Controlled Crying as our last option 5 days ago. I felt so guilty that we had to try this tough technique on our girl but thought it was for everyone's benefit. Without going into details, to our delight, by the end of the 3rd day, she could settle herself to sleep in her cot within 5-15 minutes and by the end of the fourth day, she slept through night (7.45-6). She had not been able to sleep through night since she was 3 and half months old (although back to then she was only up 2-3 times at night so I wasn't worried). I was so happy that I nearly cried. Finally we all can have some decent sleep. Think I can close this thread of posts here.

At last, many thanks for your thoughts, advice, and help Erin.

[*Kara*]

Hello hun,

I am happy to hear that things have resolved in your home, of course, I do need to state that we do not condone and form of CIO or CC as Tracy believed (as do all of us) that it would break the bond of trust between mother and child.  There is scientific concerns about stress/cortisol levels as well though I am sure you educated yourself before making your decision.  There are many links to information under the General Sleep section if you did need or want further info.

I can honestly say that I do know that level of exhaustion that you were living through.  I have been there. And I did CC with my child as well.  She was just shy of 6 months at the time.  My story is here: Kara & Alexandra's Story

I do hope that things settle at your house going forward but there are some things you need to be aware of:
1. There will quite likely be a regression around day 10.  Ferber speaks about it in his book and warns that it can be more intense than the original sleep training.

2. Milestones/illness etc will mean that you may have to re-train baby again.  Same story as before, more crying will happen.

Overall, CC will "work" for some kids.  However, as with all sleep training methods, things along the road of life/development will send things off course and retraining will be needed to get back on track.  The difference is that CC doesn't teach baby how to sleep independently so retraining involves going through the entire CC process each time something comes along to disrupt sleep. 

BW will teach your child how to sleep and retraining is often only a day or two at most of gentle reassurance that you are there if needed.  Minimal crying if any will generally happen (and it can be done with zero crying for sure - I can attest personally to this since I refuse to allow DD to cry after the whole CC experience for fear she does lose trust again). 

I do hope that things are fine going forward for your whole family, but if you find yourself unsure/lost/worried, know that we will all be here to welcome you back with open arms and work with you to find a solution.

All the best to you

[Lizziesmum]

Hello Kara,

Many thanks for your post and advice. I am fully aware the need of retraining in the future but I am confident that we can handle it judged based on the experience I gained in the last week. I would have chosen not to use cc if other technique had worked for us. I am lucky that my little one did not cry excessively nor vomit not even on day 1. It would have been ideal if they didn't have to cry but when she was not getting much sleep, I.e. 6 hours at night, I was more worried about her physical development. After a week training, she has been sleeping through night consecutively for 3 nights and she can settle herself within a matter of couple of minutes now. Wouldn't that mean she has learnt to settle herself and sleep independently? Also, She seems her happy herself and in fact she is happier when she is awake as she had better sleep. she still looks for me when she is hungry, Tired, or needy so i think the trust bond between the two of us is not broken thankfully.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts with me.

Regards

[*Kara*]

Your child so your choice hun... Just have to remind anyone reading that we do not condone CIO or CC here at BW. 

[amayzie]

Hi hon. Just backing up Kara's comment that at BW we don't support CC or CIO as a method for settling and teaching sleep to babies. Although it may have worked for you in this instance we feel that it isn't in line with the strategies and philosophies in the 'Baby Whisperer' books- and in many ways is contradictory to this. I'm going to lock this thread now. Please feel free to post and questions you have on other areas of Baby whispering in a new thread as needed.