Had trouble with DS No.1, now struggling with No.2 as techniques not working

[Susan de Weger]

We are having a lot of trouble with our 9 m/o DS, we have been through an intensive sleep clinic programme here in the UK with our 3 y/o as well as combining Tracy's techniques which helped us out.  Son No.1 was a dreadful sleeper from the get go, and a touchy baby so we went through a good 2+ years of bad sleep deprivation. 

I've answered the FAQs here and also summarised the issue:

How old is your child? 9 months
What’s his/her daily routine?
At the moment 4.00am BF,
6.00am Awake
6.45 Solids
8.30am Sleep in car while on way to kindergarten
9.00am Awake as we get home, will NOT transfer into bed
10.00 BF
11.30 Sleep in car while on way to kindergarten
12.00 Awake as we get home, will NOT transfer into bed
12.00 Solids
1.30pm/2.00pm Attempt to get to sleep with limited success, often falls asleep in car/buggy as we are at football/swimming
3.00pm BF
4.30pm Supper
6.00pm BF
6.15pm Bath, Bed, Book
6.30pm Sleep
What’s nap routine? As above
How long are naps? MAX 45 mins, have been since about 6 weeks
What's bedtime routine? Above
Do you bottle or breastfed?? BF
How much? or how long? Above
If breastfed.. one side or both?? (at each feed)
How many wakes per night? Normally once or twice but for up to 2 hours
What’s your LO like when waking at night? How long is he/she up? Distressed, up to 2 hours each time
When you go to him/her is she fussing or crying? Or is it a mantra cry? We give him about five minutes then go in to shush every 5 minutes
What have you tried to settle?? Only when getting very distressed, BF
What do you do for A time and how long is it? Crawling, playing with big brother, reading
Are there developmental issues such as teething or milestones? Teething and cruising
Have you introduced cereal? Why, how much, and how many times a day? (for LO’s under 6 months)
Do they have a prop? If so what is it? No
Do they have a lovie? Soft toy in bed

So the problems are:

Bad day naps
I have to do stuff with my 3 y/o at fixed points in the day, and this means that No.2 is only getting cat naps in the car and won't transfer into bed or buggy to continue sleeping.  We try to have a minimum 2 days per week where we don't go out so he can sleep in bed but he will still only sleep for a max of 45 mins, twice a day.  I've tried to go and comfort him 5 mins before he would normally wake but this has not worked in extending his day naps.

Screaming every time he gets put into bed
We have recently moved into a short term rental apartment as we are about to go travelling for 3 1/2 months before moving back to Australia, this also seems to have unsettled him as he used to go to sleep without a problem but now screams the house down the second he goes to get put into bed.  He is sleeping in a travel cot with a proper mattress in it, we put him into this about two weeks before we moved so he was used to it, he has all the same toys in the bed.

Night Wakings
We had managed to wean him off night feeds at about 7 months by only offering water, he got the message after about a week.  We then had about a week before we moved and since we have had frequent night wakings where he is very distressed.  We use the controlled crying technique of going to him every 5 minutes to pat him on the bottom and shush him.  This had previously worked when he was waking and wasn't so distressed but now won't as he stands up in his cot and screams and screams and screams.  We are on the top floor of an apartment block full of old people so I don't feel that I can just let him go, and he is also in the same room as us.  DH has to get up at 6.00am to get to work so another reason I have just resorted to feeding him, this quietens him down but often he will just start up again after he had fed, although not at the same ferocity.  I have not tried PU/PD (it didn't work with No.1, we had to go controlled crying) as we just haven't got the luxury of inconveniencing the whole apartment block for hours in the middle of the night.

We have a very consistent, quiet naptime and bedtime routine I just don't know whether he is simply overtired plus confused and going through separation.  In which case we can't do any more than we are, and just hope he gets the message.

At all other times he is an angel, very happy, relaxed and smiley.  He is a great eater and is very chilled out.  Sleep is just our problem.  Any ideas would be great as we are not looking forward to the havoc that the travel is going to create if he is this bad now. 

Yours in sleep deprivation.

[momofclaire]

I would bet that a lot of this has to do with nap times.   He just isn't getting enough daytime sleep to be able to settle at night.  Is there any way you can let him sleep later in the morning and thus push his first nap time back to nine when you are back home.  This would also push the next nap back until you are back home?  I am going to ask a nap mod and gen sleep mod to have a look at your post also. 

[Susan de Weger]

Yes I think a lot of it is day nap related, we used to live only 10 mins walk away from kindergarten so I could keep him awake in the pushchair until we got home.  We are now a 20 minute drive away and I've tried to keep him away by having the windows down (freezing!), radio on, singing songs etc and it just doesn't work.  He will fall asleep and if I get him out and try to put him back into bed (via a 5 minute walk and 3 flights of stairs) he is wide awake and has missed that nap cycle.  DS No.1 was the same, whether he got 2 minutes or 2 hours once he was roused he would not settle down again.

[MDHmommy]

I have to say that one thing pops out at me here:

"What’s your LO like when waking at night? How long is he/she up? Distressed, up to 2 hours each time
When you go to him/her is she fussing or crying? Or is it a mantra cry? We give him about five minutes then go in to shush every 5 minutes"

Every 5 minutes sounds a lot like the Ferber method to me, even though it's a consistent 5 minutes rather than incrementally longer stretches.

It could be VERY possible that at 9 months - esp. with cruising starting - that your son has got some seperation anxiety made worse by the 5 minute stretches where he is left in his crib to cry. This could have something to do with his flipping out when he's put in the crib? That would cause problems with him transferring to the crib too.

Have you tried any gradual withdrawl techniques? They worked wonders for me when DS was about 9/10 mos old, we had tried CC, and had some terrible separation anxiety to contend with.

[momofclaire]

I mean can he go to bed a little later, thus get up a little later and then not need a nap until when you get home from  the drive?

[*Mona*]

why don't you keep him awake in the car and offer a nap after you get back home? at 9 months he may be ready for 3 hrs A time before a nap. napping on the go makes him overtired and there you have your night wakings. plus definitely separation anxiety which makes things even worse.

so I suggest naps at home and not letting him cry.
here's the link to SA and Walk In/Walk Out info:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=62612.0

[Layla]

I agree with pp - could you try and keep him awake in the car until you get home. At 9 months, my lo also wakes around 6am (also asleep by 6.30pm) and her 1st nap is at 9am and 2nd nap around 1ish. So for both naps, as long as he is not snoozing in the car, he should be able to take in his cot. You'll find he'll take better naps and night wakings should go as well. It might take about a week of body adjusting but soon you'll find that he won't be napping in the car because his body would have gotten used to the new nap times.

You also mentioned that you have a quiet naptime and bedtime routine but he falls asleep in the car for 2 naps and motion sleep is not very restorative. It doesn't allow your lo to get into the deep sleep. If he doesn't fall asleep for the 3rd attempt nap then he is awake from 12pm till bedtime which is really too long and that in itself is a cause for nightwakings. He should be on 2 naps at 9months (1-1.5hrs each).

I really wouldn't CC - it won't work, especially in this case because he is overtired. When he wakes at night its because his daytime sleep is disturbed & he is just too tired to have peaceful sleep at night.

Try to entertain him in the car, sing songs, give him something to play with maybe something to eat.

HTH & good luck
Layla