5 month old touchy

[zportiss]

Hello!

My message follows the schedule! Sorry I am having a hard time pasting it in the spot I wanted at the end.

3/30
4:25 woke crying, nursed, fell to a very light sleep, startled easily, got to crib and patted to sleep when startled from laying down and swaddling
6:20 wake crying, unable to self sooth, escalated, tried rocking, wide awake,
6:40 nursed
7:00 play w daddy before work
7:20 tummy time
7:40 play exersaucer



3/29
Woke a few times throughout the night , fussed but was able to settle on her own
4:00 crying, nursed for 20 minutes,  sleeping in crib at 4:45
5:30 & 6 - fussed but stopped, assumed she was sleeping but at 7 she was awake laying in her crib...No clue how long she was awake
7:05 - nursed,
Tummy time, exersaucer, 8:45 run, lots of yawning, 9:15 played on floor to push to 9:30 - very fussy
9:25 nursed, slowed w pauses at 9:33
10:00 eyes popped open, tried to rock, tried swing for 45 minutes, fussing escalated to crying, dad rocked, until 11, no dice
12 nursed
12:30-1 slept in car
2:00 nurse
3:20 nurse to try for nap, 3:30 slowed, lots of pauses, unlatched first try, asleep, 335 startled & , nursed for 3 min, rooted, 3:50 startled & rooted again, nursed, tried to unlatch multiple times, kept rooting, 4:08 unlatched and rocked on shoulder,
4:15 popped awake, play time on floor, in exersaucer, then pack n play, got fussy
6:26 nursed
Relaxing play in bed, books, songs
7:15 bathtime
7:26
7:38 asleep
8:10 wake crying, tried to rock, arched back & fussed
8:16 nursed
8:28 unlatched after a few attempts
8:42- cried in sleep & woke up, tried to press in arms to settle, just cried
8:54 unlatched, in crib by 9:00
9:05 & 9:30 woke crying, crying w her eyes closed, looked like maybe she was dreaming, patted on her back and settled right back to sleep both times




 3/28
5:00 nurse, doze off and on, unable to settle back to sleep, even co-sleeping did not work
6:00 fairly alert, continued to try nursing
6:45 out of bed, play time
8:22 nurse (slowed way down/long pauses at 8:30), flutter sucked off & on, unlatched 8:39, 8:42 startled, awake and rooting, nursed again, almost asleep then let-down 8:46, 8:48 slow down, long pauses, 8:50 unlatched first try! 8:59 startled & woke. Tried to get back to sleep rocking, pooped her pants 9:09 rocked cradle, yawned.a bunch, looked drowsy, started arching her back & getting fussy, 9:22 rocked on shoulder, started crying 9:25, put in swing fussed off and on. 10:00 crying escalated, tried rocking again, gave up,

No play time,
10:30 Put in carrier, started getting fussy almost immediately
10:50 swaddled & nursed, 10:59 sucking slowed, pauses, tried to unlatch, 3rd try, 10 second between tries
11:02 asleep, placed in crib at 11:15
Very fussy
12:30 nurse
2:30 nurse,
2:40-3:05 slept in arms, startled multiple times, nursed back to sleep,
3:05 tried to rock back to sleep, quickly fell back to sleep, in crib at 3:25
4::05 awake
4:36 nurse
5:10 playtime in play pen. Fussed, moved to exersaucer, played there for 1/2 hr, moved to bouncer, then last hour played in bed, then stories, singing, rocking
7:00 bathtime
7:15 nursing, slowed really quick, unlatched a few times, then switched sides to get a good feeding
7:33 unlatched first try, pressed firmly on arms for 10 min to counter startles, seemed to work!
8:00 woke 5 minutes after placed in crib, rocked for 30 minutes,
8:30 nursed to sleep, unlatched herself at 8:40 asleep, pressed on arms for startles
9:00 in crib


Hello!

my touchy 5 month old must be nursed to sleep, is extremely difficult to get down for naps, and then wakes while still in arms, has lots of jolts and roots right after drifting off to sleep to get back to sleep, sometimes wakes when being placed in crib, and often wakes just 10  minutes and sometimes 30-60 minutes after being placed in crib. 

I'm trying to remove the nurse prop through gentle removal,  but in my desperation to get her to sleep, I end up letting her fall to sleep on the breast because the unlatching seems to sometimes stimulate her, compounding the issues.

She is a very sensitive baby...to sounds and visual stimulation.  I have a feeling this plays a role in her sleep.  I use white noise, swaddle, and darkened the windows.

I've read about the 5 s's and I'm going to implement them, in addition I'm going to camp out and watch for jolts and try to help her sleep through them.  I haven't really seen a pattern to try w2s but that's mainly because she is napping so erratically.

What I'm wondering is can I do anything else to help her fall to sleep? 

She is always giving me mixed messages and I don't know how to tell when she's overstimulated, overtired, undertired....She has always been a very confusing baby   how do you know if you are doing the right amount of stimulation

We are 'trying' to stick with the 4 hr EASY, but here's a sample of our last couple days (see above). 

[weaver]

You must be fairly tired with all that! Has she ever slept without rocking or feeding to sleep?  If not, then I'd say the best thing is to consider yourself as starting at the beginning.  Make a plan, choose day one, and go for it.  Tracy Hogg (the Baby Whisperer herself!) always said to observe first, make a plan and then start changing things.   

Anyway... my LO1 was a touchy baby. So I know what you're talking about!

Here's what we had to do.  He needed a super-long wind-down with the 4s ritual, and staying with him for the first 20 mins of sleep, httj if necessary.  Once he was properly asleep, after the 20 minute mark, he napped really well.  Sounds like a lot to do, but he learned to sleep independently from there with gradual withdrawal. (In fact, he sort of told me one day he didn't need any help any more..!).  He also needed a rock solid routine and definitely very low stimulation before naps.   We did rely sometimes on clock-watching to get the routine right, just trying to follow the 'average' A time, depends on the baby but can help.

how do you know if you are doing the right amount of stimulation

For a touchy baby, I'd say the right amount of stimulation is really very little, I wouldn't be too concerned about 'entertaining' her, or her having 'things to do', at this age just watching the world and getting to know her body is hugely stimulating for a sensitive baby.  Both my LOs just loved looking out the window, going around the house doing jobs etc.

I found with my guy that physical contact was the most soothing thing for him, so while you're trying to drop the feeding to sleep prop, I'd try to keep lots of snuggling in there.

I see you have a post on the props board...

Trying to think how I would handle dropping feeding to sleep with my LO1, from the touchy angle, and it chimes with what has been said there.   I think the least confusing thing for him would've been just to stop letting him do it during the day. Obviously the night time is different, you want them to feed and go back to sleep!).  He would've found gradual withdrawl for that very frustrating, I think, though I'm a big fan of gradual withdrawal for just about everything else. Of course, up to you how you handle it. I wouldn't worry about giving a small feed before nap time, if that easiest to do at the moment, lots of BF babies do that on a 4 hr EASY.  But I would probably try to give that feed outside the bedroom and about 30 mins before nap time.  Then go into the bedroom for naps and do the 4s.  She will probably protest and demand to be fed, but if she's anything like my guy, she will learn very quickly.  Lots of sh-pat and snuggles to sooth her touchy spirit. 

HTH.

[zportiss]

Thanks so much for your response weaver! 

I am so, so tired ... but I just keep thinking about how much more tired my sweet little angel is.   she has always nursed to sleep.  A couple weeks ago I was able to rock her to sleep but now she is downright furious if I try that business now.  She begins crying immediately once is sit in the rocker!

So about the plan, timing is everything right?  I don't exactly have the plan yet, but...I'm wondering about when is the best time to start.  My husband's birthday is coming up this weekend too and she was supposed to go to grandmas for s few hours.  Is it super important to be home every single nap?  If we started after this weekend, it will cut into a weekend when we will be away from home.

  I feel almost like I'm procrastinating but to you think it will be better to start the plan after the trip when she's closer to 6 months old?

I posted on the touchy support page some examples of her emotional side.  I'm just wondering if she might be a little more secure and more emotionally mature at 6 months.

Of course the downside to waiting 3 weeks to start is reinforcing her bad habits another 3 weeks and of course her not getting the sleep she needs for another 3 weeks.

About your windown w your touchy lo, how long was it and could you give me an idea what you did? Yesterday we did 1 hr of play, followed by one hour of calming activities and this worked well for her first nap.  She didn't really nap the rest of the day, even httj didnt work and she woke both times.  I don't know what I'm doing wrong there...

[zportiss]

here is yesterday's schedule for reference regarding the naps yesterday
3/30
4:25 woke crying, nursed, fell to a very light sleep, startled easily, got to crib and patted to sleep when startled from laying down and swaddling
6:20 wake crying, unable to self sooth, escalated, tried rocking, wide awake,
6:40 nursed
7:00 mellow play w daddy before work
7:20 tummy time
7:45 play exersaucer
8:20 play in crib w toys under mobile
8:40 wind down start reading
8:50 started fussing, acting like she wanted to nurse,
8:52 nursed in nursery, swaddled, white noise, 9:00 tried to unlatch, 9:03 unlatched successfully (11 min), asleep, 9:06 stirred and rooted. Tried to pat, immediately started fussing, nursed back to sleep, 9:10 unlatched and put on shoulder, patted, no shush & rocked, settled very quickly and fell to sleep, startled every 5 min or so, changed position of head, (first half hour) maybe uncomfortable swaddled laying on arms? Startles stopped at 9:40, after 1/2 hr mark, startled & cried out at 10:28, (1:18 minutes) , shushed, patted, rocked, stayed asleep, dream? Uncomfortable?, startled again at 10:33, 10:45-11 lots of picking head up, still sleeping though
11:05 woke
11:20 tried to give her bottle
11:25 floor time
11:50 exersaucer
12:12 bottle 3 oz bm
12:30 bouncer w no mobile
1:00 run in stroller
1:30 diaper, swaddle, white noise, story, started fussing during second one, sang some lullabies
1:44 nursed, while rocking (goal 10 min or less), 1:48 & 1:52, 2:02, slowed w long pauses, tried to unlatch and pat on shoulder, cried, nursed again,
At 2:02 crying & unlatching her apparently seems to stimulate her , she relatched but eyes wide open, then pulled off and wide awake, arched back, gave up on nap
2:10 swing, fussed
2:30 exersaucer
3:00 bouncer, fussed
Very fussy
3:30 swaddled, white noise, nursed in darkened nursery
3:47 unlatched when asleep, 4:07 jolt, pressed on arms, patted very lightly, 4:10 jolted, heard gas, (gas drops before feeding before nap) eyes popped open, looked confused about where she was, New curtains, stimulated her, almost rocked back to sleep, 4:25 woke screaming, wanted to nurse back to sleep, chose not to because I'm trying to break the habit
4:30 played in playpen, fussy
4:50 rocked on porch
5:25 nursed
Bouncer, crib w mobile, carrier,
7:14 nursing 7:24 unlatched first try, asleep, held through jolts, patting & shushing, in crib at 8:15
9:05 cried out, settled back to sleep, 9:10 cried, escalated, seemed hot, tried to rock back to sleep, crying escalated 9:20 nursed back to sleep 9:30 fell to sleep
9:50 in crib

[weaver]

Ok, I followed you over to the Touchy support board and have posted there.  You should get some more advice there. 

*I* feel tired reading your schedule.     I think it is going to be difficult to see an improvement without getting rid of the rocking and feeding to sleep props. As it is, it's impossible to see when she's going to sleep, so hard to think about A times etc. It is entirely up to you when you start ST, but I would probably wait til you have a clear week so that she gets a good chance of learning this new way of sleeping.  Given she's touchy, I would be careful about staying home for naps and sticking to her routine for the first few weeks. 

Reading the 'trying to unlatch' parts, oh, I can really identify with this.  My LO1 would've gone nuts! and LO2 is still not going to play ball with that game, no way!  For your afternoon nap there, the one where you had to give up, I'd just put her straight into the carrier.  She might go back to sleep, which'll help you, or at least she'd be relaxed.

Have you read this?  It will be your main tool for teaching her to sleep, so here it is for easy reference:
What does a good wind down consist of (Includes 4S ritual)

[zportiss]

Yes I think the gradual release with nursing is NOT going to work with her, lol!     on the bright side I did get two naps today!

So dh and I decided to put off ST for 3 weeks until after our trip.  I kind of feel like we are just extending our misery, lol, but I want to be sure we do it right the first time.  In the meantime, I'm working on breaking the nursing prop and incorporating shush pat whenever possible to establish it as a soothing method.

About windowns, yes I looked.at the 4 s's and I think I have a decent.routine, just not.the shush quite yet.  I was just curious about your extra long one.  Today I nursed Bri and.didn't let her fall asleep then rocked her on the porch and it took her a half hour before her eyes started getting heavy. Could that rocking be part of her windown and then just lay her.down before she falls to sleep?

Also, another question about her naps, if she totally skips a nap, how do I calculate when her next nap should be?