Help needed with a very spirited (almost) 4 month old....!!

[Raquelita1]

Please help!! I'm new to these forums but a friend mentioned the site to me today and having read the books I thought it must be worth a go....

Probably best to start by giving you a bit of background info.  Daughter is now 16 weeks old and is what might be called a spirited baby!  She has never been one for sleep – averaging only 8 hours a day as a newborn, and these days up to about 14 most of which are at night, thank goodness.  But she really fights sleep, never settles easilyand fusses and cries every time we try to put her down for a daytime nap or at night, even when she’s obviously tired. 

We look out for her cues, but the fussing honestly seems to come out of nowhere and then by the time we take her to her room, put her in her sleeping bag (at 9 weeks she started to escape her ‘miracle blanket’ swaddle so we began to use a lightweight sleeping bag with a blanket over to tuck her in to stop her moving around the cot) and sit down with her to calm her down before putting her in her cot,  she’s generally hysterical.  It really seems like she’s developed terrible association problems and screams because she realises sleep time is coming!  She has slept in her own room since day one, and her room is always dark for her daytime naps as she gets very easily distracted if she can see things.  She has been on a routine since 3 weeks old, hasn’t fed in the night for about 7 weeks now, and is gaining weight (and height!) very well – normally about 10/11oz a week. 

I can try to be a bit more specific about the issues we're experiencing that I'd love some help with - here goes....

Firstly, getting her to sleep in the first place.  We sit down with her and wait for her to stop fussing, crying and squirming (can be up to 15 minutes), and then she seems to flake out and is almost asleep when we put her in her cot.  Normally she’ll stay down (not always), but I would love for her not to fight sleep in this way so that we can put her down more easily.  Any ideas?  Or is this just her nature and do we just have to accept that she needs us as a prop to fall asleep?

Secondly, during daytime naps she’ll wake up screaming after 30-45 minutes (i.e. at the end of her first sleep cycle) and then will rarely go back to sleep.  This doesn’t happen at night – she might stir at the end of her first couple of sleep cycles in the evening but goes back to sleep without crying.  The knock-on effect of poor morning & lunchtime naps is that she then wants to nap for a good while in the late afternoon (rather than just a catnap), and then won’t be tired enough to go to bed ‘on time’ at night – and we’ve found that if she goes to bed ‘late’ she’s then very restless all through the night.  Shush-pat has never worked (she lies on her back so we can’t pat her back and she doesn’t like having her tummy patted and cries even harder), and PU/PD has got me baffled so I’m hoping someone can advise….  If we pick her up she is rarely consoled in our arms.  How are we supposed to hold her doing PU/PD?  We’ve tried horizontal cradling, upright against shoulder, sitting down….  Of course even if she continues crying we put her down after a couple of minutes and pick her right back up again.  Sometimes I lean in to her cot and rest my cheek against hers to help her settle, but more often this doesn’t work.  Also, sometimes when she wakes up early during a nap she’ll stop crying as soon as we enter the room and will smile. So what do we do then?  Pick her up even though she’s not crying, as she has no plans to go back to sleep…?!

Sorry for the long post, but I really don’t know what to do to help her to settle to sleep more peacefully and to help her nap well during the day so that she doesn't get so grumpy.  Any advice and ideas much appreciated.

[KellyC]

Hi

I completely sympathise with your nap problems as we are having exactly the same with our DS Zander who is 14 weeks old.  He wakes up after 45 minutes and sounds like he's in excrutiating pain.  I must admit I've decided to try and be more relaxed about this as I was spending the whole of the rest of his naps trying to get him back to sleep and by the end of it (even by the end of his first nap!) I was crying almost as hard as he was.  I don't have the personality for it and it does him no good to have such a distressed mummy.  I'm now going in after 35 minutes and stroking his cheek to try and slightly disturb him and disrupt his sleep cycle.  It's only worked a few times but as it's so quick and painless I give it a go anyway.  If he wakes up and he's happy we just carry on as usual but if he's grouchy I now go out with him - in the baby sling or pram to see if he'll get another 20 or 30 minutes in.  I know this isn't ideal but the best we can do in the situation without me ending up at the doctors!

As for putting your LO down for sleep, have you tried letting her do her fussing and squirming in her own bed rather than on you?  Zander will not go to sleep or settle on us but we've been placing him on his side in his bed (with a wedge to stop him rolling onto his front) and he puts his head in the matress and squirms a bit, sometimes has a little whinge and then goes off to sleep by himself.  If he doesn't quite make it we do a little bit of shush/pat to help him along and we've seen huge progress since we started a couple of weeks ago.  Even last week we had to shush/pat every time and stay the full 20 minutes until he was in a deep sleep but this is no longer the case unless he's particularly tired or over stimulated.  I should say that after his Dreamfeed I place him directly on his back and he goes back to sleep no problems (never have to pat/shush as he doesn't fully wake for his DF).

Kelly x

[Deb_in_oz]

Hi Raquelita1

Spirited babies are very unique in the sense that they 1) need shorter A times in the early months (1st 4-6 months it seems) and 2) have limited tired cues, by the time they fuss and yawn you have missed the window and actually have an overtired baby.

the overtiredness is evident byt he 2 key points you made 1) hard to put down and 2) waking in less than a sleep cycle because it is unsettled overtired sleep.

what is her A time currently - did you switch her to a 4 hr routine alreasdy?  many spiriteds do not get to 4hr routines until 5 or more months.

if you post her routione i will have a look at it, but i can already tell you that she needs to get to bed earlier and you will see an amzaing turn around in a matter of 1-3 days. we did this from 7 weeks and went from having a baby who barely naped asnd could stay awake for 5hr stretches to having a baby who napped every single EASY cycle and without too much fuss (but until 6 months old we were slaves to the clock because of the lack of cues)

[Raquelita1]

Thanks for your replies.

Debra - we actually started with the Gina Ford routine at 3 weeks and it's only since then that I heard about the BW and read the books, taking tips that fit in with the routine we already have.  Feeding routines have always been good, and my daughter now happily goes 3.5-4 hours between feeds and has just cut out her dream feed (which was fairly small anyway) in the last couple of days, so she's taking about 8oz per feed over 4 feeds a day.  She hasn't even increased her daytime feeding volumes as a result of dropping the dream feed.  As I said already, her weight gain has always been good (too good perhaps!), so I'm confident she'll continue to thrive without this fifth feed.  I hear what you say about the 3 hour BW routine perhaps still being better for a spirited baby at 4 months, but to be honest I'm reluctant to change the feeding pattern as I feel introducing more feeds during the day would be a step backwards.

Our daily routine goes as follows:
8am - wake up and feed (normally already awake from about 7.40, lies in cot cooing and chatting to herself until I go in), then get dressed and play under gymini a while, sit on my lap while i breakfast etc.
9.45/10am - seems to start getting tired, so to nursery for nappy change, wind down (hah!) and bed, normally asleep by 10am
10.35/10.45 - wake up (I'm happy with this nap lasting 45 mins as this is the GF routine that we've been following since the early days), normally nip out briefly at this point to do any grocery shopping
12pm - feed, then a low-key play with soft toys etc.
12.45ish - starts getting tired so take to nursery etc. and put to bed, normally asleep by 1pm-ish, the 'ideal' would be to sleep for 2.25 hours
BUT 1.30/1.45 - wake up suddenly screaming, spend anywhere from 30 mins to an hour trying to get her back to sleep, sometimes manage it sometimes not
3.15 - wake up (if asleep!), feed at 3.30
sometime between 5 and 6 - catnap of around 15 mins (if she slept ok earlier), otherwise about 30 mins, perhaps while out for a walk
7pm - bath, feed (in nursery), bed by 8pm, though it can sometimes take a bit longer to get her down

I always let her nap at home in the morning and try to be at home for the lunchtime nap too (perhaps one day a week I might be out and she sleeps in her puschair lying flat).  So I'll keep this up as long as it takes to improve things.  As I say, I'd rather not change the feeding pattern unless you really think I need to.  So do you think that if I start putting her down for naps fifteen minutes earlier before I even spot any tired cues, at 9.30am and 12.30pm for example, she'll get better?  But then she would be going to bed pretty much as soon as she's finished her lunchtime feed, which I don't think is ideal.  Please let me know what you think.  Thanks again.

[Raquelita1]

Hi again Debra

Slight change since I posted my other reply to you last night....  Looks like the DF is still needed after all, as dd woke at 4am this morning and was hungry.  Seems like the couple of nights where she slept through were just a fluke, to be honest she's been a bit out of sorts the past few days anyway - we wonder whether she's starting to teethe.  So tonight we will reinstate a small DF of 4-5oz at 11pm. 

I put her to bed last night using PUPD and sssh-ing (took about 40 minutes, mainly with her calm in the cot), and did the same during the night which took over an hour to get her back to sleep, but only 3 PU/PDs.  Having read some of the other posts I'm wondering about changing our wind-down routine for naps today to see whether she's any calmer - taking her to the nursery while the blind is still up, sitting with her in her sleeping bag while we read a book, then putting her in her cot and finally putting the blind down and seeing what happens next.....  Will let you know how I get on, unless you have any other suggestions I could try.

Thanks again.

[Deb_in_oz]

Being very familiar with the GF routine I won't get into a debate about the pros and cons with her routines for under 6 mo old but will instead give you my advice in relation to a spirited 4 mo old who is fighting sleep... and then leave it to you to decide how to try to make EASY work if you are choosing to carry on with GF.

you can start by moving back her naptimes by 15 min and see if that improves her settling and nap length.  if her settling does not improve i definitely recommend shortening A time further or at least ensuring that the "extra" A time is super-low key (ie just sitting and watching the world, going for a walk around your outside area (yard,garden, etc) in your arms, nothing stimulating or hyper involved)

if that cuts into feed time it becomes a balancing act between getting her fed and getting her to bed before overtired.  i think you could settle on a 3-4 hr routine as a compromise and start off with a good first nap by feeding after waking as you are doing already and then getting her to bed earlier than you have been so she goes down easily.  if the nap is 45min - 1hr you can have some A time then feed at 3 1/2 hrs to allow some more A time before bed (but without pushing her too far), etc

so based on your current day you could look at:

8am - wake up and feed (normally already awake from about 7.40, lies in cot cooing and chatting to herself until I go in), then get dressed and play under gymini a while, sit on my lap while i breakfast etc. (need to take into account when she wakes up to get accurate A time)
9.00 (as a starting point) start windown and have in bed by 9:10 at the latest (the earlier the better) which is 1hr 30 A time, hope to be asleep by 9:30 (will depend if this was short enough A time)
10.15 - will wake up if does 1 cycle - if she goes longer it is your decision obviously whether to wake her up to stick to your current "routine" otherwise I woudl be aiming for 1hr 30 in bed (try to resettle with shh/pat as PU/PD can be very stimulating for spirited babies) with wake up time closer to 11am which allows for a 3.5 hr feed time
11:30 feed
12:15 start windown for 12:30 in bed
 if you want to focus on nap extensions in this cycle to get her to sleep 2.25hrs that woudl be a great idea and woudlwork with your E times
3pm probably awake between 2:45-3:15
3-3:30 offer feed in this window = 3.5 -4hrs
4:30 or 5 offer catnap (depends on when woke from 2nd nap, just aim to put down after 1.5 A time) of 45 min.  if she did not do any long naps i woudl see if letting her do longer at the catnap helps her get rested enough for a good last feed and easy bedtime settling.  this was ofetn my spirited lo best nap of the day - a common situation is spiriteds who like to nap more in the late afetrnoon.
6:30-7pm - bath, feed (in nursery), bed by 7:30

this is my suggestion to try to balance it - i think it is important to understand about EASY that the underlying principle is to take your child's temperment into account and i think it is near impossible to have a spirited baby HAPPILY on GF before they reach 5-6 months when they can handle the longer A times and settle easily for naps... on her routine it just leads to them being overtired and overstimulated.  that is my 2 cents.

for her windown - see how she takes to your idea and adjust if she seems resistent (ie durig story she is getting stimulated - which happens for my dd2 who just wants to grab the book, eat it, smack it etc)  i think as little interaction as possible is best for spiriteds - unless you find she is relaxed with the whole thing in your lap in which case go with it (she will guide you) - i found Olivia just needed the room to be dimmed at the beginning not just before i left the room - so in the dim light she has a nappy change, a few seconds windown after where i sing a quick lullaby and into bed saying "night night", turn on white noise machine and leave-

[cashar]

Hi there

Unfortunately I am not familiar with the GF method for under 6mth olds you are referring to but I assume it has a lengthy A time.

My 'spirited' lo took until if I recall 5 1/2 mths until he could tolerate longer than 1 hr 15min A time.

We used to have a wind down time that started very early, was very low key (ie: walking around garden, sitting watching the world go by, looking at our dog etc) before sitting in darkened room then into cot 20 mins before I hoped he would go to sleep. This made all the difference in our case. He just could not handle too much A time.

PU/PD was also way too much for my ds but I found myself sitting by his cot for 45mins - 1hr soooo many sleeps sssshhhhhinng I thought it would never end. It is soooo hard sometimes I used to just cry along with him.

This method is very worth the hard yards, and they are very hard with spirited babies.

Great advice from Deb, I don't have any more to add just know I have been there and want to reassure you there are plenty of us who understand.

Good luck, you are doing so well.

Cas

[Raquelita1]

Thanks Debra and Cas

Having been up in the night for a while dd was still sound asleep at 8am this morning, so rightly or wrongly I left her till 8.30 then roused her for a feed.  She took a full feed thankfully, in spite of having a small feed in the middle of the night.  She surprised me by starting to show sleepy signs at 9.40 having only been awake for an hour and 10 (I guess because she had been restless in the night), so we went straight to the nursery, read a book (though as you point out this may not be such a great idea as she did seem too interested in the pictures!), into cot, 3 PU/PD due to minor grizzling (but amazingly no full-on crying like normal) and 10 minutes sssh-ing and she was asleep.  She then woke up 50 minutes later.  I'm going to give your suggested routine a go Debra, and try especially to extend the lunchtime nap. 

What you say about the GF routine is probably very true where my spirited dd is concerned, but as that was the first routine I read about I have persevered and just haven't had the confidence to try to change something that works for the feeding at least.  But now I realise I may have to be flexible about the feeding in order to improve the napping and sleep routines. 

I've only just started out trying to change things, but you know what I feel much more positive already!  Thank you so much for your advice.  I'll let you know how I get on.....   

[Deb_in_oz]

Thanks Cas for sharing your details which clearly explain my key points.

Olivia can physically stay awake for a long time (and coudl do so from a very young age) but if i were to then try to put her down she would show how exhausted she was by needing a lot of help from me to get to sleep (same as Cas I could be in there for up to an hour settling her just to get a 45 min nap...) at 7 weeks we cut back her A time and started from scratch (45 min A time to ensure that we never missed her "window" and built up from there)

just to give you an idea of my lo A times:
3mo 45 min- 1hr depending on cycle
4mo 1hr- 1hr 15
5mo 1hr 30 - 1hr 45 (this is when we moved to 3.5 - 4 hr EASY)
6 mo 1hr 45 - 2hr 15
7+ months: depended on cycle but usually 2hrs for 1st A, then 2 1/2hrs, then 3 1/2 - 4hrs until bedtime
8 mo + : 1st A 2- 2 1/2hrs, then 3 - 3 1/2hrs, then 4+hrs

so this shows that they get there in the end but at a slower pace then a textbook baby.  i also found that once she settled into a good routine of A times she could have a 45 min mornign nap and then longer 2nd nap and a catnap of 45min - 1hr 30 and that worked for her, so i do believe in being flexible to find what works for your child.

also - forgot to mention there is a thread in EASY for parents of spirited babies - you might find it helpful if you have not seen it already.
http://www.babywhisperer.com/forum/1-vt40851.html?postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[Raquelita1]

Just a quick question to clarify something.  Do you count the A time excluding the time it takes to feed, or is A basically the whole awake time?  Thanks.

[Deb_in_oz]

it is the whole time awake even before you go to them in the cot (so if she wakes at 7:40 you count from then)... includes eating, changing them etc until you put them back in the bed

[Raquelita1]

Thanks Debra.  Today is going pretty good so far.  I took her to her room around 12.15, we cuddled a bit, then had some minor crying when i put her in the cot and put the blind down.  Had to do 4 brief PU/PD, 10 mins of ssssh-ing, then was asleep at 12.45.  I went in at 1.10 to wait for her to stir and about 10 mins later she started so I lay my hand on her and sssh-ed till she calmed down.  This happened three times and at one point she did start to open her eyes....  When she'd been still for a good 5 minutes again I left her.  She's still asleep and it's now been 1 1/2 hours!   

[Raquelita1]

Well, while things seemed to be going well last Tuesday, and in fact Wednesday wasn't so bad either, now it's a different story.  DD has been extremely difficult all over the weekend, and today I've been in tears.  I have been putting her down for naps earlier than normal, before she shows any signs, and normally she'll be asleep within 20 minutes - generally pinning her arms down and ssssh-ing her to sleep, doesn't really cry just restless.  Still stirring 30-45 minutes into each nap, and now I can't even prevent her from waking up by putting a reassuring hand on her or gently pinning her arms down.  Then it takes at least 30 minutes to get her back to sleep (not crying, just wide awake so I ssssh...), but today part way into her lunchtime nap after an hour and a half of trying she still wouldn't go back to sleep.  I just don't know what to do to extend her nap times.

Also, since we've started trying to be a bit more flexible with her naps, and especially letting her have a longer nap late afternoon while we're out for a walk (she generally wakes up after 30-45 mins, of course, and we leave it at that), she has become more difficult to get to bed at night.  Bedtime used to be 8pm, now it tends to be 9pm before she's finally asleep, with well over an hour of trying to get her down.....  Plus, her morning wake-up time has gone from about 7.40 to around 7am.  So her night sleep is becoming drastically shorter. 

So I'm feeling pretty lousy right now.  My day starts when she wakes up, she's not asleep till 9pm so it's normally 10pm before we have dinner, and during the day I spend hours sssh-ing her to sleep, or at least trying.  If she's asleep I'm on tenterhooks waiting for her to wake up.  I feel like I don't know my a*** from my elbow right now.  She doesn't fall asleep (or back to sleep) easily, she keeps waking up after 30-45 mins during naps, and night sleep is getting shorter by the day.  I don't know whether to persevere with this (I know things take time to change but this seems to be going horribly wrong on all fronts), or try something different.  Does anyone have any ideas on what I should do?

DH is going to be home late tonight (bl**dy "corporate entertaining") so I feel very alone today.  DD has turned 4 months today, and I can't help but beat myself up for still not knowing her well enough to do the best for her by now.... 

Thanks so much.  xx

[KellyC]

Hi

Please don't beat yourself up.  I just went in to try and extend my DS's nap (I go in after 35 minutes and stroke his cheek) but I must have got the timing completely wrong as his eyes pinged open.  I hoped he might go back to sleep but I can hear on the monitor that he's awake, probably building up to a big scream.  He hasn't slept for more than half an hour at a time today and is going to be very grumpy and difficult to get to bed tonight now.

Last week (or was it the week before?!) I felt like you do now, everytime I tried to extend a nap I'd end up in tears as it wasn't working and I was spending all my time bending over Zander's crib shushing.  I decided to try and be a bit more laid back as it was no good for him having such a stressed mummy.  Now I go in after 35 minutes and attempt to disrupt his sleep cycle so he'll go longer (it works sometimes) but otherwise if he wakes up early I get him up and roll with it.  This is what's working for me and we're both happier.

Kelly x

[Raquelita1]

Hi Kelly, thanks for replying.  So how many short naps does Zander tend to have now throughout the day, if you're just going with the flow?  I'm scared about disrupting the feeding routine if I do that.....