Author Topic: NW potential cause? *Long* Sorry!  (Read 1162 times)

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Offline donna_issabella

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NW potential cause? *Long* Sorry!
« on: April 28, 2007, 06:00:52 am »
Hi there,

I desperately need an objective and less tired mind to just give our routine a once over please!

DS was a real sleeper until about 8 weeks of age. He slept 3 out of 4 hours most days, gained weight well with only feeding 6 times a day, with the occasional Growth Spurt. Then his reflux started in all seriousness at about 7-8 weeks and he also started sleeping 45 minute naps in the evenings after his bath. So from 7pm he would sleep 45 minutes on the dot and then wake up and be impossible to get to sleep - although yawning like crazy - until 10/11pm feed, then go down for the night basically and wake once for a feed at about 3 am. This all resolved at about 10 weeks - I think his clock needed resetting to 7-7, where I think he thought it was 10-10, IYKWIM.

OK, so at the time we got him to sleep 'for the night' at 9-10 weeks, we started him on a 3 hour EASY. He then started sleeping very poorly in the early morning hours. Very restless and squirmy, which I attributed to the reflux. (Rightly or wrongly, tell me what you think please! note that he was started on treatment at this time, so not untreated reflux) Especially after his 3am feed he would take 20 minutes to fall asleep and seemed not to enter deep sleep. Grunting, sighing, squirming. But would not overtly wake up.

Just to say here, he is on omeprazole and domperidone for his reflux, and he has no props. He has been falling asleep independently now for weeks - naps and bedtime, but some days does need me to pat him a bit when he is fidgety/crying. But as soon as he stops crying, I stop patting and leave the room, whilst his eyes still open - is that right? Sometimes I need to pick him up, pat him on my shoulder until he stops crying, then put him down, and if he cries I start patting in the crib. If he doesn't settle, I repeat the above. Few weeks ago I did this minimally, but the past week more, it feels. I am writing an exam next week, quite crucial for me to pass, so I am very stressed and anxious, so perhaps I am feeling his crying at bed time is more/ my tolerance is less, and I might be picking him up sooner than usual.

OK, sorry for all the info... Must be a bit OCD  ;)

So we sorted out the short naps - increased A time, double swaddled and mommy hung over the crib side for two weeks + patting. He fell into a 3.5 -4 hour EASY routine that seems to be working well for us, all by himself, smart DS, which is:

730 Wake and Meds
800 Eat
9-915 wind down and Sleep

11/1115 Wake
1130 Eat
1300 Sleep

1500 Wake and Meds
1530 Eat
1645 Catnap - most days goes down OK for this nap, but Thursday he fought it TERRIBLY!! Yesterday we ran errands here and he slept for 30 minutes.

1730- 1745 Wake, Go for a walk in his pouch
1800 Meds
1820 Bath time
1840 Bottle and singing - if hubby does the feed, CD with lullabies
1900 Bed - he can take from 5-20 minutes to fall asleep here (video monitor), for 6-7 weeks we have never had to go in to resettle him, we would put him in crib awake and close the door, he would grunt a bit sometimes, mostly be quiet, but yesterday, for first time in ages, he cried and we had to go in twice to pat and even after he moaned for quite a bit, no full blown cry, but enough whining that I wasn't sure whether to go in or not. Each time I got to his door he would stop before I could open the door. He took 15 minutes all together to fall asleep.

2200-2300 DF He has been waking up the past week or so when we pick him up, but falls asleep whilst drinking.

Now, here is where my problem begins - or rather manifests itself.

He slept through the first time at 3 months of age, the evening after his 3 month jabs and has done so every now and again. He would sometimes wake 4-5 am and I used to feed him, but for the preceding weeks he would only take 2 oz in 20 minutes, so we realised it was habit and eliminated the feed successfully 2 weeks ago. But for the past week he has woken up every morning, ranging from 4-6 am - generally 5-6, but this am he started crying at 340am. He usually lies awake and flails his arms about etc for about 1 hour before starting his loud cry. He lies and grunts and squirms but doesn't cry until after the hour. Then I go and settle him. Used to take 5-10 minutes, but earlier the week took sooo long and then I remembered someone saying there is a 4 month GS, so we fed him and he took 4 oz. So I upped his daytime feeds and he hasn't needed a feed, but still wakes up and needs resettling.

Earlier the week he cried on and off for 40 minutes between 5-6 am with me going in and out patting until we gave some paracetamol, as I thought he might have been uncomfortable for some reason. He then slept for 2 hours, so I don't think it could have been hunger.

Why does he wake up? And why does he need resettling by mommy/daddy if he can fall asleep independently? Note: when he slept through the routine was pretty much the same as it is here, only difference is he woke up at 8 am. He then started waking at 7 30, and we moved to the current plan. His sleep cues have all but disappeared and I usually follow the clock. He does sometimes yawn, but that could be after 45 minutes A time. Mostly he starts yawning once he is in his crib, and then falls asleep within 5 - 10 minutes (day time naps.)

My thoughts: is the DF disturbing his sleep? after explaining to hubby WHY we DF btw 10-11 pm, he proceeded to DF him at 12am last night   ::), and then reswaddled him, which woke ds up more - on monitor his eyes were open 10 minutes after hubby put him down in crib afterwards, so I assume he woke up. Or is the swaddle a prop? Some mornings I have seen him wake up, suck his hand - which has become unswaddled - and fall asleep again, so not sure. But my main issue is why is he waking up again, after sleeping through. He isn't rolling completely yet, goes side to side some days, rolled F --> B a few time on last Sunday, but not since and doesn't seem interested to either. I am not exactly sure whether he is teething either, as he seems to have two little peaks behind his lower gum ridge, but can't say for sure. then also I think since we changed from BF to formula - am going back to work after my exam  :'( - his reflux has been worse. He is on a hypo allergenic feed - nutramigen - but  he is definitely refluxing more and ALOT grumpier in the day time, needing me to carry him around and not even then is he happy and would he cry/squirm alot.

OK, so reading through this I realise there might be many issues contributing to his well-being, or unwell-being as it may be. The thing that definitely worries me is that I think he might becoming overtired, as he isn't sleeping that well at night. Yes he has OK naps, but where we went to solid 2 hour naps, he now wakes after 45 minutes and then falls asleep again. Last weekend we had to resettle him for both naps, which we haven't had to do for a long time and Thursday and yesterday I had to creep in and pat him for his pm nap at the 45 minute mark as he woke up and cried.

he just woke up 6 40, which is an hour early for him and also after he laid awake for an hour, that makes only about 10 hours night sleep. He is a boy that needs his sleep!! So I went and resettled him with more difficulty than normally, despite being v tired. OK, only took about 10 minutes but feels like ages if you have been up since 3 am. Mommy becoming an insomniac.  :-X

OK, so I realise many will think, this woman is crazy, complaining about *nothing* and also, how daft can she be, she needs to sort out the reflux - which we are doing, by seeing the paediatrician on Tuesday - but do you think that the DF is counter productive? I mean, if he is going to wake up in any case, we might as well not wake him, and feed when he does wake, right? Also, even though the reflux is a bit worse, I don't think it is the main problem, as he settles reasonably ok. I mean if he was hungry or in pain, one would think he would not fall asleep and sleep for another 2.5-3 hours after, right?

Now, having said he might be overtired, looking at his routine, he is getting enough sleep, right? I mean when he *does* sleep.

If you made it THIS far and have all your marbles still and made sense out of my ramblings - can you tell I am tired and very stressed??? - you deserve a Nobel Prize!!!

I would really appreciate any input.

Thank you so much!
DI

Offline momofclaire

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Re: NW potential cause? *Long* Sorry!
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2007, 23:34:08 pm »
Donna-

I can certainly tell that you are a bit stressed.  Take a deep breath, as I imagine you need it will all you have going on. 

I think the only way to tell is eliminating the df would help, it to try it.  I don't think it is interfering with his sleep but I am not experienced with reflux and it may have something to do with that. I do think the df needs to be done before 10:30, maybe you should explain the reasons to your husband again  ;)  sometimes husbands can be a bit thick, I know mine can!  :-X
Is he waking around the same time every morning, like within a half an hour?  If so, you could try W2S to break that habitual waking.

The rolling, or getting ready to roll can affect his sleep, as could the teeth. I will be interested to know if the doctor ups his reflux meds because I think many refluxers need a higher doesage around 4 months.  Let me know what you think about all that, and relax, my intuition tells me you are also a bit anxious about your exam and going back to work.  :-*
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Offline donna_issabella

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Re: NW potential cause? *Long* Sorry!
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2007, 02:38:25 am »
HI there,

LOL,
I can certainly tell that you are a bit stressed.  Take a deep breath, as I imagine you need it will all you have going on. 

Let me know what you think about all that, and relax, my intuition tells me you are also a bit anxious about your exam and going back to work.  :-*

Too true. We are visiting my parents and sharing a room with him tonight, and I have been up since 1 30 with him squirming. He was awake and at 230 i just got up and left. It is almost 4 am and i can still not fall asleep , but judging from the monitor, he and hubby are havinga great snooze. I just worry that he gets overtired and then we fight a losing battle. He has been a great night sleeper except for the fitfulness early am, but even that went and then came back now with a vengeance.

I do appreciate your reply. It is demotivating to see so many ppl have read your post, but no one even bothers to just say EGBOK - everything is going to be OK. Sounds silly, sorry, but when you get a bit *lost* you get overtired and need some one else to just W2S you, IYKWIM.

We DF him tonight, but he refluxed so badly, i think DH almost had a heart attack. I have never seen him move so fast to pick DS up. That is part of the problem i think too. He refluxes himself half awake and with the spluttering we feel we can't just let him lie down, as he sometimes coughs quite badly, and then picking him up, wakes him completely.

I will keep you posted.  Thanks again for taking the trouble to answer.

DI

Offline donna_issabella

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Re: NW potential cause? *Long* Sorry!
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2007, 08:10:41 am »
HI Stacy,

I said to dh this am we have to stop the DF, as it is causing more hassles than helping. It worked really well for about 3-4 weeks, but the past week or so has been more of a hinderance.

He sleeps at an incline on a wedge, I have looked at the tucker sling, but didnt know how well it would work with  him being swaddled, and more so now that he jives so much in bed. AS his reflux became better controlled, i thought it would not be necessary.

Even when we feed him at about 5 am he only takes about 2 oz, so i don't think he is hungry, having said that, when we fed him this week, he took 4 oz, but I thought it was a one off due to a growth spurt and we have subsequently upped his day intake and he settles reasonably easy - where that morning he didn't which is why we gave him the feed. He woke up at 440 again this am, took 10 minutes to settle and slept until 720, and dh got him up for the day at 730. We have put him down 910 so let's see if he sleeps 45 minutes or 2 hours.

Thanks for your suggestions. I appreciate it.

Offline danlynclark

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Re: NW potential cause? *Long* Sorry!
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2007, 22:21:35 pm »
Di,
*Hugs* to you.  I know how tired and stressed you are with the exam coming up and that must make everything so tough.

Did you read the link that Malialeanne posted on our birth boards?  It describes everything that Henry (and Daniel, and most of the LO's on our boards) are going through.  19 weeks is a HUGE developmental milestone/sleep disturbance. 

Daniel is also doing that wide awake after 40 minute nap.  Its like a light turns on in his brain or something.  I'm wondering if its body transitioning to a 4 hours EASY?

Henry did so well when you helped him switch his days and nights, and his 10-10 to 7-7.  I'm confident that he will go back to being a fantastic sleeper once this sleep milestone passes.  I dont have any advice on how to do it, but I know it will get better.

Sorry my post is so useless, just wanted to let you know Im here

Lyn

Offline donna_issabella

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Re: NW potential cause? *Long* Sorry!
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2007, 05:12:53 am »
Lyn, No post here is useless, trust me!!!

I read that post of Malia's, thanks. I realise Henry is just having major issues at the moment, which is probably not helping matters at all, but I worry so much about him, esp as he is now such a fuss pot and because of the *&%^$* reflux, you never know what is the cause.

On a brighter note, we didn't DF last night. He went to bed with alot of crying again last night, which is totally depressing, but as we drove home 3 hours from my parents and his routine wasn't that well adhered to, I will blame it on that  ;) . So he finished his pre-bed bottle at 7pm, fell asleep at 710-715 ish and then woke at 1am. i probably went to him sooner than usual, as my mom is staying with us to help while i study/write the exam, and he was still perfectly wrapped.I fed him 6oz - is it OK for him to fall asleep here whilst drinking?? or will that become a F2S association? - and he is still sleeping at the moment. He has made the odd grunt, but not NEARLY as bad as usual. Granted, we will have to see over a few evenings what transpires, but i feel he at least got more rest, as did I from 120 -6am, waking only at 3 am and checking on him.  ;)

So let's see what happens!

Thanks for the support and suggestions!!!

DI

Offline momofclaire

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Re: NW potential cause? *Long* Sorry!
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2007, 11:32:11 am »
Sounds like last night went better.  That's great.  I think it is fine to feed him overnight and have him fall asleep.  Make sure that he is taking a full feed and seems to really need it.  If he doesn't, then you could  be creating a F/S association.  I would imagine at four months, since you cut out the df, that he probably needs an overnight feed.
Hope that helps
Myia
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Offline donna_issabella

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Re: NW potential cause? *Long* Sorry!
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2007, 13:00:00 pm »
Hi there,

I would definitely not yet cut the night feed, it was more whether or not to DF or wait for him to wake for a feed, which we did last night and it seemed that it worked better. More natural, IYKWIM. As long as he sleeps well at night, i am happy, even if i have to get up for a feed. It is better than trying the DF and then hearing him squirm and whimper the whole night and also wake up at 5 am.  ;) He woke at 7 am, which is earlier than usual - was 8, then 730 , today 7, but it fits with the routine and as he slept well in the night he almost makes it to 2 hours A, so then we are ontrack again for a 3.75-4hr EASY.

Let's see what happens tonight. One swallow does not a summer make.  :D

Offline momofclaire

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Re: NW potential cause? *Long* Sorry!
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2007, 16:53:01 pm »
Good luck and keep us posted.
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Offline danlynclark

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Re: NW potential cause? *Long* Sorry!
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2007, 21:18:47 pm »
DI
Daniels reflux has been acting up lately too.  Hes on Prilosec suspension.  Its compounded at a pharmacy.  We couldnt figure out what was up until we remembered the advice from other reflux moms.  Compounded reflux meds tend to lose their potency after 2 weeks.  I talked to the pharmacist about it, but he denied that being true.  But, I'm sorry, I trust these moms who ALL say it.  And now about 3 weeks after a new bottle, Daniel is really restless and arching in his sleep.

I dont know if your med is compounded, but it may be something look into, or a dosage up.

Lyn

Offline donna_issabella

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Re: NW potential cause? *Long* Sorry!
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2007, 04:51:05 am »
Hey guys,

yes Lyn, Henry's omeprazole has a shelf life of 2 weeks only, so every 2 weeks we get new meds. I can't wait for him to go onto solids - at 6 months only i hope!!, because then i can use the granules which doesn't expire outside the fridge, but won't taste like chalk on its own and make him gag. I see that prilosec IS omeprazole your side of the pond. Please tell your pharmacist that the omeprazole liquid separates after 2 weeks and DOES expire. He needs to check his facts. ;) On another note, are you cutting out dairy from your diet? Made the world of difference to Henry too. Personally i think Henry needs a different formula, as when we started the new one, he got more restless and his reflux started getting more pronounced again, ie LOTS and BIG possets - well too big really to be called possets  ;) But for things to change I need to see the paediatrician which is today.

On a brighter note, he gave a cry at 5 am, after going to bed at 7pm, but fell asleep again. Is in a bit of a restless sleep at the moment, but not awake and crying, still semi-swaddled, which says to me he slept reasonably peacefully  ;) , so seems dropping the DF might be the answer. Now selfishly i am praying that he lasts until 7am, because I don't want to throw the schedule out  :D :D  Tut, wish i was more a wing it mommy. I just know for him to wake anything before 7am makes for a long day, so i would not want to start the day then. Please don't tell the mommies with the 4-5am waker-uppers  :o  they will shoot me!!

Thanks again for the moral support  :)

DI