Need help with 5 months 1 week EASY routine!

[Katsimbev]

Hi! Here we are again, in need of serious help!

We have been on EASY since my little boy was around 10 weeks old, had some issues like anyone but overall had a great routine. He started sleeping through the night at 3 months old (12hrs straight without a DF or any waking!!) we had pretty good nights until he turned 4 months... He is now 5 months and 1 week old and I think we have MANY issues to solve!!

Right I don't even know where to start! Lol

We are still on a 3 hours feeding, BUT most of the time he is not very interested to feed, but I have got the bad habit of thinking the more I feed during the day the less he will need at night! 

Because he doesn't take full feed every 3 hours, we end up snacking cause I'm worried he is hungry...

We have been having 1.45-2h A time for a while now, problem is he gets moody after that but we end up having 45 mins nap all day long...!

He doesn't like dummys so goes down in his cot with his Fisher price fish tank on (music and very bright lights on) and falls asleep within 10-15 minutes(is it too stimulating?? ) Sometimes he will fuss and fuss and eventually cry so I end up nursing him to sleep!..(About once out of his 4 naps)

Bedtime is ok, between 6.30 and 7.30 depending of if he has had 3 or 4 45 minutes naps during the day...

He is a happy little baby, wakes up happy from his naps(but gets grumpy if I don't come and get him within 5  minutes!)

He is having lots and lots of smelly gas at the moment, but no problem with reflux or anything...

So a normal day for us would go like this:
Awake and feed between 6.30-7.30
Sleep around 8.45-9.30 in the car on the way to school
F-10.00
A
S-11.00-11.45
A
F-13.00
S-13.45-14.30
A
F-16.00
S-fight! So anytime between 16.30 and 17.30 or not at all
A
Bath and feed at 18.30 and bed

And then NW between 22.00 and 23.00 and 2 or 3 more until morning...I feed to put him back to sleep or he gets very angry and screams the place down!

So please if someone could help me to see where I am going wrong and where and how to start readjusting our EASY it would be very appreciated!
Thank you!

[Katsimbev]

Just had a 2h25 mins A time followed by a nap(took him 15 mins to settle) and he woke up after 30 minutes!!!! So probably OT! And now feeding after 3.5 hours as he was very upset when he woke up....

[Katsimbev]

I recorded yesterday's routine, the afternoon nap was the longest we've had in at least a month! Kept checking on him as it is very unusual! I tried to extend his A time and also stuck to 3.5 hours between feed, so maybe that helped?

6.30-Awake and Feed in bed
Activity Time
Down to sleep-8.55
Sleep-9.10
Awake-9.40
Feed-9.55
Activity Time
Down to sleep-11.35
Sleep-11.45
Awake-12.25
Activity
Feed-13.30
Sleep-14.30
Awake-16.20
Activity
Feed 17.00
Activity-Bath
Top up feed 18.30
Bed 19.00
Asleep 19.20

Night wakings(bf to go back to sleep) at 22.45-2.15-5.00 and he was up at 6.45 so fed him while I was still snoozing in bed and then we got up properly at 7.20...

[Ima shel Alon]

Hi!
It sounds to me as if your LO is UT. He is not having enough A time before naps and that's why his naps are all 45min long, which would indicate UT and that's probably also the reason why you started having NW again.
I don't think he is far from what he should be doing (which at his age would be 2:15-2.5h for most babies) but he is still not there, yk?
I know that he seems ready for a nap earlier, I have experienced it myself, but if he is giving you UT naps then he IS actually ready. The jump you did today to 2.5h for too much for him and he gave you an OT nap (30-35min) and the PM nap was that long because I suspect he just crashed as he was so tired from not having enough restorative sleep during the day.
IIWY I would work on upping the A by 10-15min to 2:15h (did I get it right that you are doing 2h right now?) and will then see how it goes. You'd need to wait 4 days to see if there is a change and you'd need to stick to the new A during those days even if he gets a bit OT. If you feel after a couple of days that he is just getting more and more OT then shorten the A and allow a long nap (but I don't think this will happen). If after 4 days he still does 45min naps then we can think again if to increase A time again.
Re feeding, I have a hard time to decide if the NW are to feed right now as he might have transferred some of his day calories to the nights the past month and right now I would just stay with it and we can see if the higher A helps with the NW. If not we can work on transferring the calories to day time again.
Are you BF or FF? I don't know if he can manage 4h gaps between feeds but I do think that whether if he is FF or BF he needs his feeds spaced so he can take a full feed.
HTH.

[Katsimbev]

Hi!
Thank you so much for your help 
Ok so I think like you said he is ready for longer A but he is not used to stay awake for that long yet so he gets very grumpy so I will try to put him down after 2h05-2h15 of A (it usually takes him 10 minutes to settle). At the moment I was putting him down after 1h45 mins so that he was asleep 10-15 minutes later so yes he was having 2h A time. I will keep recording the next few days and see if it works...

As for feeding, so far today I'm trying to stick to our new 3.5 hours feeding routine and he seems to manage very well so I will continue for the next few days...but as you said I am worried he is getting more of his milk intake at night now and I don't know how to reverse this...but we will work on having a good EASY during the day and then we will work on the nights! When shall I increase to 3.75 do you think?( I am exclusively BF)

One more question, when he wakes up in the morning (between 6.00-7.30) I feed him in bed and we both fall back to sleep for a while...I never know when to start counting our A time and what time was the actual feed as he can be sleeping on my breast for 1 hour or more! For example this morning he woke up at 6.30, I put him on my breast and he fed sleepily until 7.20 when we finally got up so I did an average; started his A time at 7.00 and feeding at 7.00 too, is that ok?

Once again thank you very much for taking the time to reply!

[Ima shel Alon]

When shall I increase to 3.75 do you think?

It's hard to say. You can try and push it to that already and if he is hungry at 3.5h then feed him then.

I think it's ok to start counting the A whenever you actually both wake up. If after a few days you see that naps are short then we might have been counting wrongly, but let's see.

With the NF, you are right, I think it's better to get to a better routine first, but either way I wouldn't expect a BF baby to not feed at all at night at his age, I would still expect a NF, and some BF babies even need 2 NF.

[Katsimbev]

Ok so that is how today went

Monday(Day 2) of our new EASY

6.45 feed in bed
7.20 up
Asleep (car) 9.05
Up 9.45
Feed 10.30
Bed 11.45
Asleep 11.52
Up 12.32
Feed 13.45
Asleep (car) 14.15
Awake 15.30
Feed 17.15
Top-up 18.35
Bed and asleep by 18.45

So our A times today were:
1h45 (nap 40 mins)
2h07(nap 40 mins)
1h45 (nap 1h15)
3h15(bedtime!)

So really not ideal, first nap is difficult as I have to drop the big sister to school for 9.00 and LO always falls asleep...but tomorrow is another day! 

We are keeping up the 3.5 hrs feeds might try to see if we can push one up tomorrow...

As for NW and NF I have been really lucky to go through a phase where he was going without a feed for 12 hrs but I never took it for granted as you never know with a baby!

Will let you know how tomorrow goes!

[Ima shel Alon]

IIWY I would actually start the day when he first wakes up, so 6:45, because then your nap should fit when you need to do transport. In a few days when his A time is higher and you'll have an Ut nap in the car it will be difficult to figure out the next A's. Maybe it's even better starting tweaking the A time on the weekend when there is no transport so we can really see if it's working.
Your other possibility is to have the first nap in the car as a CN (instead of the afternoon CN) and aim for the other two naps to be full (1.5-2h), in that case you won't change the A time in the morning, but just set the time to 9, let's say. I don't have experience with that though, it's just a thought.
You should also try that the last A is not that long or he will soon get very OT and you'll have to deal with EW and more NW...

[Katsimbev]

I agree yesterday's last A was far too long but we were stuck as LO woke up at 3.30, he would have been ready for his cat nap at 5.45-6.00 which was far too close to bedtime and then I tried an EBT and it took longer then expected as I was on my own with the children...

He only woke up twice though at 1.15 and 4.15 and then was up for the day at 6.45, so wasn't so bad!

Today is again going very strange, will post it later on! 

[Ima shel Alon]

I agree yesterday's last A was far too long but we were stuck as LO woke up at 3.30, he would have been ready for his cat nap at 5.45-6.00 which was far too close to bedtime and then I tried an EBT and it took longer then expected as I was on my own with the children...

Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do . Glad to hear the night was all right.

[Katsimbev]

Hi! so this is how today went:

Tuesday Day 3:
(Previous night NF at 1.15&4.15)
6.45-up
7.45-feed
9.20-nap(car)
10.00-up
11.30-Feed(very sleepy)
12.00-put down to bed
12.35-Asleep
(Woke up between 13.15-13.30-not sure as I was having a nap too!)-Very upset until 13.50 when I decide to feed him as he is crying +++
Falling asleep after 15 minutes while nursing at 14.10 until 15.00
17.15- Put down to bed but didn't sleep....
18.30-Feed
18.45-Bed


A time:
2h35 (40 mins nap)
2h35(45 mins)
1h00 (45 mins)
3h30 Bed time

Again the last A was faaaaar too long but I tried to put him down at 5.15 and he would have none of it!! I am really confused now...don't know how to go about tomorrow...

[Ima shel Alon]

He is refusing the fourth nap because his third A should have been longer, making the third nap later and bringing you to BT. 4 naps a day are too much for him.
I would leave the first A time as it is, I don't think that you could get a better nap in the car than that, but perhaps you can try and increase the second A to 2:45h and see if that helps with the second nap. I would also not put him to bed after 2h A time, that's not enough for him and he might lie there UT which will turn to OT.

[Katsimbev]

He is refusing the fourth nap because his third A should have been longer, making the third nap later and bringing you to BT. 4 naps a day are too much for him.
I would leave the first A time as it is, I don't think that you could get a better nap in the car than that, but perhaps you can try and increase the second A to 2:45h and see if that helps with the second nap. I would also not put him to bed after 2h A time, that's not enough for him and he might lie there UT which will turn to OT.

The third A was so short because he woke up very upset from his 2nd nap(OT?) and I basically spent the whole hour trying to calm him down and feed him..For his 2nd A, I know 2h seems short for him but as it takes him 10-15 mins to go to sleep I thought that aiming for 2h05 A and then put down wasn't so bad(also considering that he was probably already OT from sleeping only 40-45 at his first nap!)?? He was soooo sleepy already at 11.30 rubbing his eyes and sleeping on my breast...

He seems to manage well the first A(Although he is more then ready for sleep after 2.5!) but then his 2nd A and third, I struggle as as soon as I feed him or get in the car he is gone within minutes!...

Will post how yesterday went later on...thanks!

[Katsimbev]

Wednesday Day 4

(Previous night NF at 9.15-12.30-2.20-5.30)-Very bad night!!
6.30-Up
7.45-Feed
9.00-Sleep(car)
9.40-Awake
11.15-Feed (very sleepy, I have to wake him up by switching side and keep talking to him...)
11.55-Sleep(car)
12.40-Awake
14.10-Feed
14.20-Asleep
15.00-Awake
17.00-feed
17.15-put down for catnap
17.45-not sleeping so up
18.30-Top up feed
18.45-bed

[Katsimbev]

Today so far.....

Definitely a pattern in 45 mins nap...

Thursday Day 5

Previous night NF at 12.00-4.15

6.30-Up
7.30-Feed
9.10-Asleep(car)**A-2h40**
9.40-Awake (car)**30 mins**
11.00-Feed
12.05-Asleep(pushchair)**A-2h25**
12.45-Awake**40 mins**
14.35-Asleep(car)**A-2h30**
15.15-15.20-Awake**45 mins**
15.30-Feed (very sleepy)
...
To follow

[Katsimbev]

So the end of the day went like this:

Tried to put down for a catnap but was unsuccessful again...Feed at 18.30 and bed at 18.45...

Then I tried a DF at 22.30 but we still had NW at 1.45-5.15 and up for the day at 6.45...

Now that I have managed to extend the feeds to 3.5(even had a 4.5 yesterday!) our remaining problem is 45 mins naps and NW which aren't too much of a problem TBH...Shall I change forum for the sleep one?...I'm not sure what to do... I have extended his A time, but he is just so Overtired all the time...

[Ima shel Alon]

I don't think he is OT. yes, yesterday was a bit OT (because first A was a tiny bit longer resulting in a 30min nap) but the day before and all other days you posted he is UT, not having enough A and having 45min naps (which indicate UT). I am not sure what else I can advice other than increasing the A, and I don't think another sleep board will tell you any different.
On this day, for example (which is the 4th day):

9.40-Awake
11.15-Feed (very sleepy, I have to wake him up by switching side and keep talking to him...)
11.55-Sleep(car)
12.40-Awake
14.10-Feed
14.20-Asleep

It still looks like his A is too short. The A before the second nap was 2:15h and followed by an UT nap (which could be because he was in the car...) and the third A was 1:40h, which is really not enough for him.
I hear what you are saying, that he seems so tired and hard to push the A times, I have been there myself, but as long as his A times are too low for his age he is going to keep napping for 45min. That's at least my opinion.
If you are totally convinced he is OT then you can give him a couple of days to catch up on sleep, so on those days you don't look at the clock at all, just follow sleepy cues, offer as much sleep as you think he wants, let him fall asleep on the breast and AP. After those couple of days he should be more refreshed and you can start again. You can offer 2:15h A time for the WHOLE day, you'd need to stick to that, though. After 3 days you'd offer 2.5h A time for the whole day and see where you are at. If you are still getting 45min naps then you can increase it to 2:40-2:45h A time.