11 week old nap and now nighttime sleep issues!

[sparklewings1984]

Hi guys, hope you had a great Christmas! It was certainly "different" for us with a LO! I managed to eat my dinner only 30 mins after everyone else so that was a bonus!

Ok, quick question... I'm trying to perceive with getting his A time right for the first nap for the next few days. He has been managing 1hr 20 and going down without too much crying, put down whilst drowsy but not asleep for a few days consistently but we are still getting 45 minute naps and waking up happy. I think this might be slightly UT as well as the developmental intruder. I'm thinking of trying him on 1hr 30 mins for a few days.

Question is how do I go about doing that without him getting OT and screaming before he goes to sleep? Currently his first A time consists of a feed, then sitting him up on my knees for a few mins until his food settles to avoid the reflux  (which has got much better all by itself....as I stopped taking the mini-pill which I think was aggravating it). We then do nappy change, get dressed for the day. Then back into the bedroom and sit him up in my knees again for a chat (quietly talking to him rather than being loud and in his face). Then naptime routine once I've seen a couple of yawns.

I know to extend A time I should keep the activity low key, but not sure how to calm it down any more than that! He is usually changed etc a full 15 mins before we start his wind down so should have a nice calming transition already.

He is SUCH a touchy baby with sleep though that I really try to be calm all day with him, I'm a quiet person myself so pretty sure I am not overstimulating him too much when I am by myself.

Any help on how to extend the A time would be fab!

[Ima shel Alon]

45min naps can be developmental as well, yk? But if you suspect it's UT then go with your gut feeling and increase A times.

My DS was as well really touchy with his sleep (and grumpy about all the rest ) so when I was not sure if he could handle more A time I would only increase 5min at a time, rather than 10-15min that is usually adviced here on the boards and I think in the books as well.
I gave him at least 4 days that I stuck to this new A time before I upped it again by 5min. If on the 4th day I didn't think he is ready yet I gave a couple more days with the new A time and only then upped it.
He usually managed better than I thought he would, and if he didn't then he was usually not ready for that increase anyway.

I don't think that you need to keep the A time lower key than you do already. I, for example, was also alone with DS a lot so I could control the OS but the last minutes of his A times were always hard, I always had to hold him for it and there was usually crying involved. What I found helpful is to use those extra 5 or 10min of A times to walk around the flat and say bye bye too all the rooms and we had a garden back then so I also took him out for a moment to say bye bye to the plants .

HTH, let me know how you are getting on.

[sparklewings1984]

I am seriously beginning to doubt everything I thought I knew about my baby 

OK, I apologise in advance for the huge post I am about to write.

So LO is now 13 weeks (10 weeks corrected). Still EBF, and during the day his feeding is all over the place. I thought I had figured out his hunger cry, but now that his rooting reflex has disappeared, I've realised that I was just using the rooting to identify hunger.... I was making him boob dumb and feeding at most of his "severe" cries if 2 hours or more had passed. He wasn't taking a full feed, just 5-10 mins. Full feed now seems to be approx. 12-15 mins draining one full boob, and I then offer the second but usually he doesn't take any, or only a couple of mins so I started not bothering to offer it most of the time. I decided I needed to try and stop this behaviour, so was trying to stall his feeds until 2.5-3 hours as I believe he should easily cope with that. When I pump one boob I can get 4-5 oz easily, so he must be getting 5-6 oz from one boob at a full feed. His weight gain is fine, 50th centile, now over 13lbs (last weighed 2 weeks ago).

I had a few good days getting him to feed at close to 3 hours every time. Sometimes when he had been sleeping in his pram (APOP), he could easily go 3.5-4 hours. I just can't figure out his hunger cries until he is at the full screaming stage though, and obviously don't want him to get to this point so I am still unsure of when to feed him. It is so upsetting to me that I still haven't figured him out at 13 weeks.

Second feeding issue is that the last few days he has really started falling asleep on the boob which was never an issue before. Because of his screwed up naps (see below), his feeds don't always follow EASY and so sometimes I am feeding him half an hour before he is due to sleep again because I don't want him waking up hungry. Then he falls asleep on the boob, doesn't take a full feed and wakes up hungry anyway....and again doesn't take a full feed, or ends up OT because he didn't sleep. Another vicious circle and I find it hard to then stop him snacking for the rest of the day.

1. What should I do about the feeding? I'm guessing the point is to try and make him wait until I get proper hunger cues and then he will take a full feed and go longer between feeds.

2. When he falls asleep on the boob, do I count that as sleep? So he may end up dozing 10 mins of his feed + 10 mins when he pulls off and then wake up. Should I count that as 20 mins sleep, and start his next A time from then and reduce that A time before his next sleep?


His nighttime sleep is now getting MUCH MUCH better. Hurray! We got through the madness of Christmas and his second WW, and for the last few days we have repeatedly had BT between 7.30-8.30pm, waking for a feed sometime around 3-4am, and then usually another one waking before his 6.30-7am proper WU.

3. After he wakes at 3-4am and is fed, I'm guessing I shouldn't feed him if he wakes again before WU? I admit I have been feeding him, as it's the easiest way to get him back to sleep, plus at the 3-4am wake up he sometimes only feeds for 5-10mins again so not a full feed and I feel like he might then be hungry when he wakes at 5am so I end up feeding him.


Naps are still a major issue. I feel like the erratic feeding isn't helping, and I'm still just focussing on trying to get his first nap right. Yesterday he was such a happy baby in the morning, and then his first nap he went down so easily that I was hopeful we had perhaps caught up on his OT, and could finally get this sorted. The day just went downhill! I'll post yesterday's EASY including his NWs from the night before, if anyone can spot anything obvious, please shout out.

Tuesday 30th Dec
E 2.30am (8 mins L)
S 2.45am
E 4am (9 mins L, 10 mins R - fed from same side first as wasn't a full feed at 2.30am and then onto second boob)
S 4.30am

WU 6.50am didn't seem hungry yet so did nappy change first
E 7.30am (23 mins R) he also dozed off during feed for 15 mins
A 8.10am
S 9.05am 45 mins. Settled very easily in his cot with ssh & hand on his tummy and sucking/chewing my finger for a few mins before closing his eyes
E 9.50am (5 mins L) Distracted and then pooed
A 10am (nappy change)
E 10.40am (34 mins L). Dozed on boob 20 mins
A 11.20am
S 12.20pm (19 mins L). Dozed on boob 20 mins
E 12.45pm (7 mins R)
A 1pm
S 2.20pm Took out in pram as wouldn't settle at all. Walked for 1 hour and then left him sleeping in pram at home for another hour.
E 4.30pm (33 mins L). Dozed on boob again even after his big nap!
A 5.15pm play and then BT routine with bath etc
E 6.20pm (wouldn't settle a few times when I put him down as was still hungry so ended up being total of 25 mins R and 16 mins L with some dozing in between)
S 8.15pm
E 10.45pm (6 mins R) - has been skipping this feed for a few weeks most days recently
S 11pm - 3.20am (he was babbling to himself and wriggling for a while before crying out)
E 3.45am (11 mins L)
S 4am
E 5.10am (12 mins L)
S 5.25am

WU 6.30am

I know my L/R seem to be all over the place... I had oversupply issues with foremilk/hindmilk issues a few weeks ago, and so have been going by whether my boobs feel soft after the end of a feed as to whether to start him on the same side next feed. I think part of that problem related to the constant snacking so he was only ever getting foremilk. If he takes a full feed I always switch sides the next time.

I have loads more info too... he just came out of the second WW and is starting to find his hands. Most of his A time at the min he is either sat in his bouncy chair trying to get his fist in his mouth, or lying on his playmat kicking/trying to roll etc. Added to this, I think he may be teething. As I'm FTM, and he is so little and it would be his first teeth, I am not sure! He has a lot more drool than usual but not like it is dribbling down his chin, just that he is blowing bubbles etc (which could be WW related anyway). He is constantly trying to get his hands in his mouth, but again this could be WW related!

Final point.... from the BW quiz, he comes out as mainly touchy. But now I'm wondering if he might just be bored and that is why he cries...which I then mistake for hunger and he doesn't eat properly... I am just SOOOO confused and now doubting everything!

Sorry for the length of this post, just trying to give all the background info!

[sparklewings1984]

Happy new year!

Forgot to add a few things. The last few nights he also hasn't been self settling at bedtime, which he had been doing for a couple of weeks. He seems to always want to nurse to sleep which is unusual. I haven't been doing this though, i have been feeding, winding him and then holding him in cradle hold and letting him chew on my finger for a few mins which calms him. Then every night I've tried putting him down drowsy and leaving him trying to find his fists which has ended in him crying every night. Eventually after going in to settle him (usually stops crying in crib and then starts again so results in me picking him up) I have to hold him until he falls asleep and then lay him down.

He is also struggling with trapped wind again, I'm thinking maybe because of my high chocolate consumption over Xmas so cutting that back again.

Overnight he had a feed at 11.45pm and then again at 3.45am. After this he woke at 5.30am and I cuddled him back to sleep without feeding. Then WU for day at 6.30am and he didn't seem hungry when i fed him at 7am.

Reading this back, it all seems like teething to me, can anyone confirm? I really hope it is teething as otherwise I have no idea why everything has changed so much!

[sparklewings1984]

Well I seem to have had a stupid idea yesterday to get him to nap and catch up a bit of his OT. I thought that if we took him out in the pram for every nap that we would get a good idea of what sleep he needs, and could monitor his A times to find what he can cope with when well rested... The day went like this:

WU and E 7am
A 7.30am
S 8.25am. Walked in pram for 1 hour and continued sleeping for another hour once stationary at home.
E 10.30am
A 11am
S 11.50am. Walked in pram 1 hour. Slept a further 1hr 15 stationary in cafe where we had lunch
E 2.10pm
A 2.45pm
S 3.15pm. Walked in pram. Woke when got home.
A 4.15pm
E 4.55pm
A 5.20pm
S 5.50pm catnap in  carrier
A 6.15pm inc bath
E 7.10pm
S 8.20pm. Didn't self settle when first put down at 7.50pm but after i went and gave him a cuddle him self settled from drowsy

We then had a terrible night. Woke for a feed at midnight, woke again after 1 hour, put him back down but only settled for 30 mins. He was still hungry so fed again. Down for another hour....and so on. He finally did a 2 hour stretch 4.30am-6.40am.

Now I thought he was OT and needed the extra day sleep but looking at how the night went, I'm thinking because he had 6 hours day sleep yesterday that is why he has woken every sleep cycle since midnight?  So can i assume the 3.5 hours day sleep he usually has (in  5 or 6 catnaps) is sufficient?

[Ima shel Alon]

I wrote your a reply yesterday late late at night, then my internet crashed but I managed to save my reply. So this is it:

It is so upsetting to me that I still haven't figured him out at 13 weeks.

Hun, it's going to take a while, don't be hard on yourself. TBH I only started figuring my LO out when he was a toddler...

1. What should I do about the feeding? I'm guessing the point is to try and make him wait until I get proper hunger cues and then he will take a full feed and go longer between feeds.

I actually think that the key is to get him on good A times and naps so he can have his feed in the beginning of each A time and not so close to a nap. He is snacking now so I would try and keep an EAS cycle, rather than feeding him later in the A time. If that means that for now you need to APOP naps in the pram I would do IIWY even if just to establish the feedings.

2. When he falls asleep on the boob, do I count that as sleep? So he may end up dozing 10 mins of his feed + 10 mins when he pulls off and then wake up. Should I count that as 20 mins sleep, and start his next A time from then and reduce that A time before his next sleep?

I would try and not let him doze off on the boob. Have you tried waking him up? Sometimes even a rub on the cheek help them wake up again and keep on feeding. When the feeding is finished don't let him sleep for those 10min but wake him. But like I said, this is not ideal, the ideal would be to have the feed in the beginning of each EAS cycle, yk?

3. After he wakes at 3-4am and is fed, I'm guessing I shouldn't feed him if he wakes again before WU? I admit I have been feeding him, as it's the easiest way to get him back to sleep, plus at the 3-4am wake up he sometimes only feeds for 5-10mins again so not a full feed and I feel like he might then be hungry when he wakes at 5am so I end up feeding him.

I remember that I had difficult times sleep wise and I also fed as often as needed at night just to get some sleep, but TBH it came back to bite me. It always became more and more often NF and it took a lot of work to space them again. If you have the energy then I wouldn't feed but try and shush-pat at this NW between 4AM and WU. But at the same time it's not the end of the world if I you are going to feed him. I don't mean to confuse you it might be that he is just going to do this extra feed at night after 4 and it's not going to create a problem.

I find it hard to comment on your EASY because there is so much dozing off there at feeding that I really don't know when his A times start and finish and to how actually handle it when a baby has a super short nap in the middle of A time. Sorry Do you think you can work on spacing the feeds more and see if it helps with his naps? And is there any AP that will get you a good nap out of him? We did naps in the pram till DS was old enough for us to think that he is ready for some ST. I got such good naps in the pram that I didn't see any reason why not to do it. Of course, it's a prop, but a baby this young is sometimes very hard to ST... and on top of that the 45min naps can be developmental...

WRT teething, I remember I read something that Tracey said (don't remember if it was in the book or I read it in an interview), that at this age, around 3m there is suddenly a lot of drooling and many parents mistaken it for teething but it's actually not that as it's too early. Something changes in their mouths that causes them to drool more at this age.

And WRT the BT feed, this is often the only feed that people who follow EASY and BW allow to feed to sleep as it helps baby to calm from the day and often helps if baby is OT, it soothes him. So THAT feed I wouldn't worry about IIWY and would more focus on day time.

Now I'll go look at your new post .

[Ima shel Alon]

So can i assume the 3.5 hours day sleep he usually has (in  5 or 6 catnaps) is sufficient?

IMO, no. A 45min nap is not a restorative nap even if at the end of the day he has a good total of sleep.

S 8.25am. Walked in pram for 1 hour and continued sleeping for another hour once stationary at home.

S 11.50am. Walked in pram 1 hour. Slept a further 1hr 15 stationary in cafe where we had lunch

S 3.15pm. Walked in pram. Woke when got home.

I am not sure I understand. Did he fall asleep when you first put him in the pram, slept while you were walking and then an extra hour at home? That might be a lot of day time sleep for him... I am not sure, but that could have caused the erratic NWs.
Like I mentioned in my previous post I do think it's fine to let him nap in the pram, but maybe limit it to 1.5h? Or maybe he is ready for tiny bit more A time, like 10min so his day stretches longer and he doesn't need 4 naps anymore? To drop the 4th nap is going to take a little while, he would need to be on a bit higher A times to do that. There is some information about it here: Time to Transition - 3hr, 3.5hr or 4hr EASY
3-4hr EASY Transition – In 5 Minute Increments

HTH .

[sparklewings1984]

Hi again. Thanks for your replies. I'll try and explain a bit more.

The sleeps yesterday were all in his pram. Went out for walks to get LO to sleep and then once we got home he continued sleeping in the pram. I didn't wake him as thought he needed some OT catch up sleep. However judging from last night he didn't need the extra day sleep at all. I won't let him do that much sleep ever again!

The falling asleep on the boob is not a normal thing for him, just a few days he started doing it every time he fed. I always try to keep him awake when i see his eyes falling.

I have been holding off feeding him between 4am and 7am where possible as  i agree it might start to reinforce that he gets fed to sleep whenever he wakes in the night. I will keep feeding him if he wakes at 1am as well as 4am though as I sometimes think he didn't eat enough in the day. Bf is so hard for this reason!

So today went a little bit better, even after that horrendous night.
WU 8am (i was so tired at 7am when he woke,  and i think he was too that i just fed and resettled him to get another 45 min sleep )
A 8am
S 9.20am in cot. Went down easily but only 30 mins and was due his next feed.
E 10am
A 10.30am
S 11.15am in cot. Some crying but managed to shh him in the crib. 40 min nap. OH transferred him to pram and took him for a walk .After 20 mins awake he slept another 20 mins.
E 12.50pm
A 1.20pm
S 2pm. Lots of OT crying but eventually settled in cot with shh. He woke after 20 mins. Wouldn't resettle. Took him out of the nursery for 10 mins and he was getting cranky and showing sleepy signs again. Took him back to the cot and after some more crying he settled ams slept for 1 hour!
E 4pm
A 4.30pm
S 5.35pm catnap in carrier 30 mins
E 6.10pm
A 6.30pm inc bath
E 7.10pm top up before bed  (what i am currently doing whilst typing!)

So today he has done 3 naps in his cot, one of which was 1 hour. Total day sleep approx 3.5 hours.

Any suggestions from that or should I wait and see what happens tomorrow???

[ZacsMumme]

Hey Hun, I'm just skimming over all your posts. So sorry I haven't been back but Noa is ah-mazing so you don't really need me

I do wonder if this recent unsettledness could be a GS.  Early on they have lots of them and given your lo was born early his GS could be different to the typical timings.

I also want to say from the mum of boys who slept like rubbish for the first 6 mths of their lives that even though a short nap isn't as great as a long one. It's better than nothing. Some babies just do not sleep well no matter what we do at this age and the best we can do is what your doing. Try our best to listen to their cues and set up a loose routine which will fall into place later (I promise!)

There was a patch when my first was about 4 mths and he would only sleep 35-40 mins no matter what I did. So I just gave up and we had 4-5 shorter naps for a few weeks till I felt ready to tackle it again, and then I did w2s and httj to help extend the naps I could.

[sparklewings1984]

Hello again,

Thanks for all your help so far, and the reassurance that I am not the only one having issues! I feel like the books all make out that it should be so easy, you just put them in the cot and they fall asleep! Yeah right...

So we have had some more ups and downs over the last few days. II definitely think LO is teething, he has 2 white lines under the surface of his gums and still chomping on everything in sight  (inc my nipple a couple of times, ouch!). We also had his second jabs yesterday so he has had lots of extra cuddles as he had a bit of a temperature in the afternoon.

Progress that we have made is that every day since Saturday I have done at least 2 of his naps in his cot in the nursery. He has settled fairly well for them, with no more than a few mins crying with me shh & comforting him in the cot. Couple of times we had no crying and settled fairly quickly with a few grumbles. Still only getting 30-45min naps though until I had a breakthrough.

This morning he WU at 6.50am after sleeping solidly from 4.15am. We got up, changed nappy and got dressed for the day, then bf, quick chat say on my knees, then he started looking sleepy at 8.25am and as I was going to take him into the nursery he pooped. I was worried it would make him OT, but knew I had to change his nappy so just worked on it quickly as part of naptime routine with our usual song on. Then after the nappy I put the white noise on and carried on with usual naptime routine. A few cries whilst I was putting him down but he dropped off at 8.40am. So awake time was actually 1hr 50 mins! He then slept 1hr 20 mins!!!

He is now 14 weeks (11 corrected) so this seems like a long awake time. I think it was a one off!

[Ima shel Alon]

Maybe that's a sign he needs more A time? I mean, maybe 1:50h was a bit too much and if you do that for a few days he might get OT, but I think it's worth starting increasing the A time by 10-15min, stick with it for a while and see if it helps.

[sparklewings1984]

Well how second nap today was after an A time of 1hr 25 mins, I literally couldn't keep his eyes open any longer. He then only napped 30 mins so could this have been that he was slightly OT from the first A time?

Do you think I should try maybe 1hr 35/ 1hr 40 for the first A time tomorrow? Previously he was doing about 1hr 20-25 and then only getting the 40 min naps.

The rest of today was a bit of a write off as he seemed to have teething pains again so I was comfort nursing him by giving him when nothing else would stop the tears. It was breaking my heart hearing his pain cry again.

[Ima shel Alon]

Poor baba.

It does sound like he was OT and if he is teething then he might bot be able to handle a higher A time yet. Some babies are more tired when they are teething.
I would wait a couple of days for the teething pain to ease and then increase to 1:35h A time in the morning.

[sparklewings1984]

Well today has been strange. His teething pains seemed to have stopped so i went for the 1hr 40 A time for the first nap. A bit of crying and he was asleep for 40 mins.

Next A time was 1hr 45 and then a 20 min nap that I think was cut short by him pooping in his sleep... he wouldn't resettle. I got him up and changed his nappy and then put him in the carrier to try and get him back to sleep. ..1hr 10 min A time before he fell asleep and a 50 min nap.

Next A time was almost 2 hours!!! At  1 hr 45 he was showing sleepy signs and I had already got the pram ready for APOP. He then slept almost 2hours and I woke him at 5.30pm so we didn't delay BT.

Any thoughts? It is like all of a sudden he is ready for a whole load more A time. Last night he slept at 7.45pm. Woke at 11.30pm and I fed him.  Then woke at 3am and I fed him.  Then at  6am and I fed him. Put him back to bed at 6.30am and we got up for the day at 7.30am.

He got a good 10 hours of nighttime sleep compared to his usual 8.5-9 hours,do you think that has helped him with the longer A times in the day?

He has also fed strangely all afternoon,  on the boob for much much longer, wanting both sides, punching at me, clawing his face, fussing on and off. Do you think GS?

[Ima shel Alon]

It does sound like a GS. Did it get better yesterday and today? If so, then it was probably a GS.

I still think it's too dangerous to jump to a higher A time all of a sudden, he will just get OT. The 2h nap he managed to do was because he crashed IMO after a too long A times and too little sleep. I would try and keep ALL A times to 1:35h for 4 days and if naps are still short then you can go up to 1:45h A time. And for the time being, when increasing A times, I would ignore sleepy cues entirely.