Author Topic: 6.5 mo in OT vicious cycle - no clue where to start to help her get some sleep!  (Read 3198 times)

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Offline MummyBigCat

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Hi there, I am nearing my wits end and would be so grateful for any advice. My lg is nearly 6.5 mo (28 weeks) and in a vicious cycle of bad sleeping in both day and night and is constantly tired :(   
                                                                 
We moved her into her own room about 3 weeks ago, and started putting her down for naps in her cot just before that. Before that she was doing ok at night, waking once to feed (bf) somewhere between 2-4am and going back down ok, maybe waking once more before morning. But ever since moving she has been waking every 1 or 2 hours after bedtime until her NF (which is consequently getting earlier!). If I get to her quickly she usually settles readily but if not she gets quite worked up, she can't seem to ss once she's fully awake.

After the NF she tends to settle for longer - sometimes til morning - but has just started waking earlier in the mornings so her nights are getting shorter :(                             

In the day, her naps are 30-35 minutes without fail if in her cot, so she never completes a sleep cycle. She doesn't necessarily jolt awake but just opens her eyes and stretches and wants to chat. So she won't go back to sleep on her own, and sometimes I can rock her back to sleep but this only lasts 10 mins or so once I put her down. She will sleep longer in the car, and used to sleep longer when I let her sleep on my chest or in the sling but not always.   

So the poor thing is in an overtired vicious cycle - she is happy in the mornings but rarely seems refreshed after a nap and gets grumpy later in the day. She also sometimes tries to fall asleep on the boob so obviously needs more. I know from this sitethat short naps and early NW mean OT but just don't know where to start to break this cycle! Any advice or suggestions would be so very appreciated.

Some relevant info:
LG is ebf but we recently started solids - BLW so she's not swallowing a huge amount yet.
She is rolling (and often rolls over when she wakes then gets frustrated) but not crawling yet. Maybe teething, lots of drool and chewing, but I can't see anything yet.
She is an unbelievably light sleeper (wakes at e.g. floorboard, door opening, toilet flush) and has very active dreams (lots of moving limbs and making noises) and I think this also wakes her up a lot.
Props - we're working on this. She used to feed to sleep at BT but I am keeping her awake and using a modified shh-pat in her cot - instead of patting I hold her arms as otherwise she flails around and can't seem to relax, however tired she is. I am gradually stopping the shhing and letting go of her arms sooner - is that right? For naps she still needs rocking until drowsy then I do the same. No swaddle or pacifier. We play white noise for every nap and night.
                                                             
I am quite new to BW and our routine is a bit messy but this is our rough EASY recently:
7:00 WU/E (last 2 days she has woken at 5:30 and 6 but hoping that is temporary)     
A inc solids
9:30 S (wakes after 30-35 min, sometimes can rock back to sleep for 10 ish min but then wide awake)
11:00 E     
A inc solids, although often too tired to be very interested
12:30 ish S (same as before but on occasion has done 40 mins after first wake up and rocking - if we're out she'll sleep in the car for up to 1hr 15)     
2pm E                                 
A
4/5pm S somewhere in the afternoon, depends how tired she is and what we're doing - this is often in the car as I can't handle another battle. I'm getting very familiar with random back roads in my area from aimlessly driving around! :S Again depending on earlier this can be 30 min to 1hr 15 to try and catch up. Normally I wake her at 5:15pm at the latest but the other day she'd had so little sleep I put her down 5:30-6 and she slept a bit better that night!?
5/5:30 E
A (hubby gets home from work 6-6:20)
6:30 bedtime routine - bath, sleeping bag, white noise, bf (big feed), sleepy song, shhing
7:30 ish S (sometimes takes a while to settle)
NW about 9/9:30, 10:30, 11:30/12:30
NF about 1am                                   
NW sometimes about 4:30, 5:30am   

If anyone has any advice or suggestions onb where I should start I'd be so grateful! We just can't carry on like this. Thank you so much in advance.

Erica

Offline MummyBigCat

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Eek, sorry for the essay! :S Thanks for reading.

Offline Kellyjs

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Hi Erica and welcome to BW. Don't worry about the essay.. Actually I prefer it as you've given me a full picture of your day!  :)

I too struggled with short naps with my DD so you've come to the right place. Tbh, it really looks like you're doing a fab job. I too got used to driving around with DD.. I've never complained about people driving slowly on motorways since I had to do it!  ;)

Ok, what strikes me firstly about your routine is that I think she's going down for naps UT then getting OT by the end of the day. We call this a UT/OT loop that's difficult to get out of. Normally be 5-6mo many lo's have transitioned to 2 naps unless you feel she's HSN? (High sleep needs).

How does she go to sleep? That's the only thing you don't mention I think? Does she settle herself to sleep for naps and BT? Sorry just seen where you mention this. I would look at placing her in her cot before the drowsy stage at this age now. So rocking slightly less each time. Tbh once the A time is right, you might find this gets easier anyway. Otherwise what you're doing there sounds great, a sort of gradual withdrawal which is perfect.

IIWY I would look at extending her A time first thing in the morning by 15mins and holding for 3 days to see if this makes a difference to that first nap. The reason we hold for 3 days is so a LO can get used to the new time. Do you fancy giving this a go and letting  me know how it goes? There are other things we can try once the A times are right for her, but we can try this first? I'm going to pop back in a mo with some links for you to read through. Hth x

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!!

All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

Typical Amounts of Day and Night Sleep
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 12:54:19 pm by Kellyjs »



Offline MummyBigCat

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Hi Kellyjs,

Thank you so much for replying so quickly! This is really helpful. I read those links, thanks, 2 long naps a day sounds idyllic right now but I think it'll take some doing to get lg enough sleep to drop the cat nap. I am indeed one of those slow motorway drivers now! I wouldn't have said she's high sleep needs, but what would I look for to tell?

I'll give it a go doing the first nap after 2hr 45 for a few days. I'm sure she'll be able to stay awake, although she may get grumpy. She does sometimes cry when I'm putting her down for that nap but I can never tell if it's UT or OT - is there a way to tell them apart at that point? I thought that because she wakes before the REM phase of her sleep cycle that means OT, but it would be great if moving the time helps!

One last quick question for now - if she wakes at 6 again and I can't get her back to sleep, should I go for the nap early at 8:45 or try to stretch her to get closer to normal times for the day? I still try to delay feeding to as close to 7 as possible.

It's so nice to have your support and some guidance, thanks again :)

Erica x

Offline Kellyjs

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I know hun, I used to read those and think there was absolutely no chance of getting anything like those routines! Tbh for us by the time I cracked it with help on here she was hitting the 2-1 transition anyway  ::)

I think if we increase the A times to nearer what we can expect is average for this age then we'll be able to tell more if it's UT or OT. That's why I think it's good to start with the first nap of the day as it will be easier to tell. Later on in the day after short napping is difficult as she may be getting OT by then anyway.

Wrt HSN. You can normally tell a LO is one of these if they've always needed more than the average sleep listed in 24hrs in the link I gave you before. Lo's who are HSN tend to transition and drop naps later than others.

The reason I'm thinking UT for your little bubba is because she's waking happy after the one sleep cycle. If she was waking grumpy and was closer to the recommended A times I'd be leaning towards OT. You obviously like to know about all this (as I did!) in order to understand! I'm also thinking OT by the end of the day as she's having NW's in the early part of the night. UT or too much sleep during the day leads to 'cot parties' or long drawn-out NW's in the later part of the night/very early morning.

When she wakes early, I would try and follow the A times for now to see if we can find the correct times for her. This will just be for the short term really as we really want to gauge where she wants to be. Hopefully when the A times are right, provided there's no teething, the EW's will stop anyway. Oh yes and they can get grumpy when you first stretch the times, I used to carry DD around for those last 15mims and point out stuff in the house I had to clean so she had to have a long nap  ;). Turned out to be more hard work than the rest of the A time, but it is more often than not, learned behaviour to go down for a nap at that time. Something low-key or a change of scenery will help stretch her.

If we were going down the set nap route I'd suggest to stretch her out closer to the usual nap time, but as we're playing around with her routine so much in the coming weeks I think we really need to get the A times right first. Does that all make sense? Keep me posted x



Offline MummyBigCat

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Thanks, yes that all makes sense :) Just wish I understood the little pickle better! There are a couple of days we have to leave the house in the morning but I will stick to the A times you suggest as closely as I can and let you know how it goes, perhaps on Friday when we've had a few cot naps. Thank you!! x

Offline Kellyjs

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Good luck..Oh there's still many, many days I can't figure out my DD either! Best thing about this place really.. A set of fresh eyes and the support! Xx



Offline MummyBigCat

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Ok so this week I have had little one going to sleep 2hr 45 after waking and haven't really seen any change, except that she's been a bit grumpy in that last few minutes. She often cries when I put her sleeping bag on - again I had thought this meant she was too tired but perhaps she's still not tired enough? She has still woken after 25-33 minutes and I have only been able to get her back to sleep by rocking twice out of five times and then only for 10 more minutes. She seems happy enough when she first wakes, although soon looks tired after and has tried to fall asleep during the next feed a few times. Her morning WU times have been a bit all over the place (6:15 to 7:35) but do you think I should try 3 hours?

Thanks! xx

Offline Kellyjs

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Poor you hun. Yes I would try 3 hrs and also w2s. Have you done that before? How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)



Offline MummyBigCat

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I'll definitely give 3 hours a go. Actually today was a weird one - she'd had a bad night (turned out to be tummy pain, as I discovered when she eventually filled her nappy at 2am) so slept in til after 7:30. I tried to get her to go 2hr 45 but by 10am she was on the verge of meltdown and cried all through the nap routine until she suddenly fell asleep. She still woke after 27 minutes but was unhappy and wanted to go back to sleep (needed my help though and still woke after 10 mins but that was because she was hungry I think). Is this the level of tiredness I should be hoping for?

I have read about w2s but never tried it before because she is such a light sleeper I'm afraid I would wake her fully and she'd get even less sleep... I have previously tried HTTJ instead, but actually she doesn't always wake with a jolt, just opens her eyes and stretches, so that didn't help. But if you think w2s is worth a try I am happy to give it a go. Would you go in at 25 minutes? Does it work with light sleepers, and what would you advise if she wakes completely? 

Thanks xx

Offline Honeymonster

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Hii MummyBigCat!

I honestly could have written this post myself about 5 months ago!!!

I was always so paranoid about over tiredness I think I spent a lot of time panicking about naps and not over-stimulating my LO- I used to get so annoyed when my mum watched her she would always do a big2 hr nap in the afternoon but never did it for me.. Turns out a lot of the time it was prob because she just wasn't tired enough with me but then did get into a ot/ut cycle!

In hindsight I wish I hadn't spent so long focusing on the 'perfect' schedule and had spent longer enjoying my time with my lo! - but I know that because of how much it affects night sleep (and let's face it that's the point in all of this!) I get that it's easy to get caught up in it all!

My lo was always very low on sleep needs and it took my a while of trial and error before I accepted this was the way it was! I think at 6.5 months we were doing about 3.15-3.30 a time in the morning or after a long nap, and 2.45 before a short nap or bedtime. I learnt on here that many Lo's actually need a longer first A time and also A time will be significantly shorter after a catnap. It's really hard taking the plunge and pushing a times and to begin with your lo will probably seem super tired and grumpy- even crying for bed as she's used to napping after 2hrs30. But I'd stick with it. Could you manage a walk in the sling or buggy during first A time to get some stimulation and fresh air? At this age I found that first A time as it got longer to be a hard one to manage as I was so tired myself from a bad night and was constantly clock watching - dying to get a moments peace again. Things improved when I started making this a time more stimulating. Or failing that you could focus on your second nap being the longer one. I know the dream is two longer naps but we never got that at this age as she just didn't need it. I know you want to be careful and avoid total meltdowns but I'd seriously consider dropping that third nap aswell (depending on how well day sleep has gone) . Every lo is different but mine would never have 3 naps by then and it sounds like they are quite similar. Given that she's taking a while to settle at bedtime and you said she slept better the day you did an early bedtime.. It may be time. It's hard when your so worried about to but a lot of the time with my lo what I thought was OT was actually her appealing agInst going to bed ut! When properly tired she'd often scream but then crash out really quick.. But with UT she's scream and flail about and look at me and it would go on and on for ages until she was actually tired and then would crash but wake soon after (often cos so worked up by it all!  I remember things being much easier when we dropped a nap and only got worse again when she was ready to start dropping the second nap at 9.5 months!!!!!! Mad I know.. We've only  consistently got down to one now at 11 months but it's soon much easier now!

When she wakes after 35mins do you go strait in?


Big hugs as I know it's difficult trying to get it right!


Offline MummyBigCat

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Hi HoneyMonster,

It's comforting to hear that you have gone through similar with your local - and very interesting what you say about being tired enough. I struggle to make the first A time stimulating because after getting up and feeding/dressing lo I need to shower, dress, feed our cats and get us both breakfast, so lo is doing a lot of entertaining herself. It's definitely possible she's not tired enough by the time I take her for that nap... I'd be happy with a short morning nap and long pm one, if lo was happy in between, it's just that at the moment she is grumpy within an hour of waking :(

You ask if I go straight in... Most of the time I do, because I try to resettle her back to sleep (but this normally ends up in rocking if it's ever going to work). I have left her several times to see what happens and she chats for a bit then rolls over and gets annoyed eventually. She has never looked like going back to sleep! In the afternoon at the same time (assuming a short morning nap) she still wakes but is more likely to cry, and more likely to go back to sleep (with my help, at the moment) so I guess that's a better level of tiredness.

I would drop the 3rd nap where I can, but it's so unusual for her to her to have two decent naps that she ends up awake at like 2:30pm having had less than 1.5 hours sleep and would never make it to BT without full on meltdown! That's definitely the aim though. It's not that I'm striving for the perfect schedule necessarily - I only really started charting nap times quite recently and was going by what I thought were sleep cues - she just seems so tired and grumpy so much of the time that something needed to change! I'm really hopeful that following the advice on here will help us both be happier and enjoy this precious time more :)

I really appreciate your insights and advice xx

Offline Kellyjs

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Sorry I've been AWOL hun, lots of things have been going on. I still think she's slightly UT if she's waking up happy. I used to get the meltdowns too and was so afraid of OT that I just put her to bed. Problem was, I had stretched the A time slightly but not by enough so she was getting slightly grumpy on waking up!!

Honeymonster has hit the nail perfectly on the head with her post. Hindsight is a beautiful thing isn't it?!

How did it go today with the A times?



Offline MummyBigCat

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Hi Kelly,

Yesterday went like this:
WU 6:15
A 3 hours
S 9:20-10:00 (woke after 27 min, rocked back to sleep but woken by the cat miaowing; total 32 min sleep)
A 3 hours 20, including swimming
S 1:20 - 2:45 (annoyingly fell asleep in car on the way home, transferred her to cot, woke after 30 min, rocked back to sleep then stayed asleep for 45 mins)
A 2.5 hours
S 5:15-5:35 (fell asleep feeding)
A 2 hours
S 7:30
NW 9:50 (got hysterical when I didn't pick her up, hubby eventually settled her)
NF 1:15 am
WU 7:00

Today has been messy unfortunately as she fell asleep in the car before she'd been awake 3 hours, so not very informative. Yesterday's pm nap was one of the best she's done in her cot and that was after a long A time so perhaps I need to keep stretching it.

I know the cat nap is not ideal, but what would you recommend if she wakes at 2:30 or 2:45? It's too long to stay awake til bedtime. Today she woke at 3:30 and I'm currently doing BT feed and struggling to keep her awake (no CN).

We had a few days where the gradual withdrawal of rocking etc at BT was working - she fell asleep in her cot with just some shhing - and the early NW seemed to be decreasing. but when she's this tired (and has happened the last few nights) she just can't stay awake til the end of her feed and it's nigh on impossible to wake her! So it has gone backwards :(

I'm aiming for 3 hours in the morning a time still. Any other suggestions? Xx

Offline Kellyjs

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 Think you're on the right track hun. Swimming is great as it tires them out, pity about falling asleep in the car though. Typical!

I would carry on as you're doing, adding in a short 15mins or so CN in if she wakes too early from the afternoon nap, or EBT if you think she can go that little bit longer.

And don't worry about the odd time she falls asleep on you.. It happens! You are doing brilliantly managing to settle her in her cot for the majority of the time. This is all a process hun   :)



Offline MummyBigCat

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I've been quiet because little one has the chicken pox :( So her sleep has been a bit all over the place. She's needed more I think but been waking due to discomfort. Hoping she's nearly better and I can resume the plan.

However, we may have had a bit of a breakthrough as last night and today she has settled to sleep on her tummy (after initially going down on her back). Although it wasn't a brilliant night, she didn't want feeding until 3am (lately it's crept to 12:30 some nights) and took a 2 hour nap this afternoon which I had to wake her up from! So I wonder if she will find it easier to self settle on her front. Just not sure now whether to put her down on her back and wait for her to roll (which so far requires shh-pat to resettle) or put her down on her front to start with... Any thoughts?

Thanks :) x

Offline Kellyjs

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Sorry for the late reply hun, it's been a hectic wknd.

SIDS advice states that you should out them on their back, but as she's rolling over now there won't be much you can do if she does roll over. Can she roll back again? Or is she happy staying asleep on her front? I think it'll be totally up to you. How have the last couple of night been? X



Offline MummyBigCat

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Hope your weekend was hectic in a good way! Yes she can roll every which way now, and seems to be choosing to stay on her front. She's really in control so I'm not worried.

The last couple of nights haven't been great but I think it may be partly because she has pretty much fallen asleep on her BT feed, and I think that's because she's been up too long before BT. What do you think - here is the typical routine over the past three days :

WU anywhere between 6:30 - 7:30
E 7 / 7:30
A 3 hours
S 9:30/10:15 (still 30-40 mins, once managed 50)
E 11
A 3 hours
E 1:30 /1:45 - top up needed to get her through nap, tries to fall asleep
S 1:45/2:15 (wakes after 30-40 mins but settles with shh-pat and will then stay down and resettle again if she wakes - total about 2 hours sleep)
E 4:30
A
E 6:45 bt feed
S 7:30 (falls asleep on boob, I do my best to stop her or stir her)
NW 10:30,  12, 1 (feed), 5/6

Questions...
Do you think she needs a shorter A time to bed? That's my gut feeling.
I guess we should also try to extend the morning nap, although I'm happy for it to be an hour otherwise she would miss the 11am feed.
How can I get around the problem of needing to feed her before the pm nap? I haven't included solids here as she's had so little interest while poorly. Hopefully she will increase those at some point, but in the meantime I can't see a different solution.

Thanks!!

Offline Kellyjs

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If that's your gut feeling hun, I'd go ahead and reduce that last A to BT. Perhaps you could add 15mins onto the morning one if you think she can handle it? I still think that's a slightly UT nap, but as she's getting 2hrs later on she might be having enough sleep overall for the day for her anyway yk? If you add 15mi s onto the first A then maybe she'll sleep for around an hour then you can still have 2hrs later on? Reducing that last A will help keep the day to around 12-12.5hrs which I think will be ideal around this age with 2 naps.

It gets really, really difficult to space the feeding around now too. I would continue with BFing more than solids at this age anyway as it's far more important nutritionally wise. If she is having solids in the morning, that may help carry her through her nap, then the bf could just be 15mins later. I would keep the bf before the nap, but I know it is difficult to keep her awake. Perhaps moving that 15mins earlier might help, then short A such as a nappy change?



Offline MummyBigCat

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Thanks Kelly, that's good advice and I'll try it out. Bubs is slightly off her milk too now and coughing badly so we're off to the doctors today  :(

I feel like we're getting somewhere with the routine now that she's sleeping longer, which is great. Now she's nearly over the chicken pox I just have to work out how to fit in leaving the house - hope she hasn't forgotten how to sleep in the car!  :-\ Seriously I've never had a "nap time" to consider before so hope that going back to baby groups and socialising doesn't mess everything up again.
Xx

Offline Kellyjs

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I drove myself crazy about going out too hun. I think as long as you can do baby groups and socialising most of the time around their naps then that's great. It also helps as they're not too tired to enjoy it. If not, EBT is king! Here once every couple of weeks, I go and see a friend that's an hour drive away. When DD was younger, she used to do 45mims car nap or the way there and the way back. Now, I let her nap in the car on the way down there albeit for around 30mins or so and just put her to bed 45mims earlier when we get back. The next day I might allow an extra 15mims on her nap depending on how the night went.

Good luck at the dr, hope she's feeling better soon x