help! We both need our sleep!

[Amandamom]

Everyone was suggesting that she was getting too much daytime sleep a couple of weeks ago so I did start limiting her naps during the day.  I usually let  her sleep for 2 hrs for one nap and 1.5ish hours for the other nap.  I haven't had to wake her from a nap since Monday though, her naps have all been under 2 hours since then.
I've still been writing down what she does everyday.  I don't know if it would be helpful to post what the last four days have been like?
I agree that we are talking about a lot of issues, but I think they are all related???  If you think we should focus on one thing I can do that...I'm open to anything right now.

[Amandamom]

I just reread the FAQs on the Naps board.  Tracy suggested dropping the catnap at 6 months, but it could be later and to do it when your LO has refused the catnap for a week.  My LO has refused the catnap 5 out of the last 8 days, including the last 4 days in a row.  Maybe instead of less A time  I should be working towards more A time and no catnap?!?
I think she is OT, she definitely was OT today, so that sort of seems counterintuitive, but I'm trying to find something I haven't tried yet.
Please feel free to tell me that I'm way off base.

[Peek-a-boo]

Routines at this age are not my best thing, so I'm going to let Myia weigh in.   

[Amandamom]

Last night she slept from 7:00 pm to 5:30 am.  I fed her at 5:30 only this time she didn't go back to sleep.  She just laid there and fussed.  I did shh/pat for awhile and got her up at 6:15.  I was rereading this thread yesterday and someone (Isabella&Jasminesmum ?) said that laying there fussing means undertired, so maybe she'd had enough sleep after 10.5 hours?  She was in a good mood when she woke up and played happily for awhile.  I had to take my mom to the airport today so my LO slept in the car for about 1 hr 10 min. and is now awake from her first nap at 9:00 a.m.  So, I really don't know what will happen with the rest of the day. 

I don't know if she is OT or undertired or if I should be trying for shorter A times or longer or maybe a later bedtime???

I've looked over all of the days that I've been writing down and this is what I've found although I don't know if there are any patterns or if it means anything.
On the days where she slept through the night she slept:
1. 10 hours at night the night before + 1.25 + 45 + 30 =12.5.  Avg A time was 2.5 hours
2. 9.5 hours at night + 2 + 1.5 + .5 = 13.5.  Avg A time was 2.5 hours
3. 9 hours at night + .5 + 2 + 1.5 = 13. Avg A time was 2.5 hours
4. 11.5 hours at night + 1.75 + 1.5 = 14.75 Avg A time was 2.5 hours
5. 10.5 hours at night + 1 +.5 +. 75 = 13.75 Avg A time was 2.25 hours

On the nights where she didn't sleep through the night:
1. 10.5 hours at night the night before + 2 + 1.25 = 13.75 Avg A time was 3 hrs
2. 10.5 hours at night + 1 + 1.25 + .5 = 13.5. Avg A time was 2.5 hrs
3. 12 hours at night + 1.5 + 1 = 14.5. Avg A time was 2.5 hrs

I don't really see any kind of pattern or really any reasoning as to why some nights were good and some were bad.  In the last 8 days I've had more good nights than bad nights though, so that is definitely something.
 

Do you guys see anything??  Am I dealing with too many issues??  If so, what should I focus on??

[momofclaire]

I don't really see a pattern either.  I do think that the pattern might not emerge when written out that way.  Generally daytime sleep affects night time sleep, SO it might be helpful to see it written in a way that would show me daytime sleep and then what the night after looked like.  KWIM?

I was going to attempt to write out an easy for you to try but I think I MIGHT be able to see something if you give me the info you have written the other way. 
Post back and I will give the info a real hard look and look into what Tracy says.
Myia

[Amandamom]

Thank you so much!!!  I really appreciate all of the time you are putting into this.  Okay, here it goes:

The good nights:
1. 2 + 1.5 + .5 = 4 hrs of naps + 10.5 hours of sleep that night = 14.5
2. 1.25 + .75 + .5 = 2.5 hrs of naps + 10.5 hours of sleep that night = 13
3. .5 + 2 + 1.5 = 4 hrs of naps + 11.5 hours of sleep that night = 15.5
4. 1.75 + 1.5  = 3.25 hrs of naps + 12 hours of sleep that night = 15.25
5. 1 + .5 +. 75 = 2.25 hrs of naps + 10.5 hours of sleep that night = 12.75

The bad nights:
1. 2 + 1.25 = 3.25 hrs of naps + 9.5 hours of sleep that night = 13.25
2. 1 + 1.25 + .5 = 2.75 hrs of naps + 9 hours of sleep that night = 11.75
3. 1.5 + 1 = 2.5 hrs of naps + 10.5 horus of sleep that night = 13

If we look at it that way, then generally speaking the more naps she had during the day the better she slept that night; however, there are a lot of exceptions to that statement.

[momofclaire]

I am not really looking at this from a good night/bad night perspective, but rather from a how much sleep does she need to be happy and rested. Of course there is the average amount that babies need but generally each baby has an amount they are good with.

Ok, I am going to suggest a routine.  I don't think you should bail on the cat nap just yet as with wakings and inconsistant naps you could end up in a worse place. 

7:00 wake and eat
9:15 begin windown
9:30 nap (wake after 1.5 hours, but do it gently. I sometimes stir Claire a bit and then leave the room so she thinks she is waking on her own terms.  )
11:00 eat
1:15 begin windown
1:30 nap (wake after 1.5 hours, try to extend if less than an hour)
3:00 eat
attempt some fairly active A time here in order to tire her for cat nap
5:00 cat nap (30 min, try until 5:15 to get her to nap if she is refusing do some very low key A time like read or just cuddle)
6:00 eat
7:00 eat I always clustered even at 6 months if she would have some
7:15 bedtime (7:30 at the latest) 

I think maybe you have a little one who doesn't need 12 hours overnight.  Many do not.
The important thing about this routine is the A times and nap times not the actual clock time.  I would try this for a week.  Be as consistant as possible.  If she wakes before 7:00 or whatever her normal wake time is, treat it as a night waking.   I think that she has probably outgrown pat shh and it may be time to consider pu/pd for night wakings.
Myia

[Amandamom]

Thank you!!  That routine looks good.  I will start implementing it tomorrow.
Today her naps were a disaster so I don't have high hopes for tonight.  Her afternoon nap was only 35 min.  I tried to extend her nap for 25 min. and she just cried the entire time I was in there, so I picked her up and rocked her to calm her down and she was doing the hiccup cry.  I felt so bad!    We ended up with only 2.5 hours of naps today.

I know you probably think I'm crazy, but I don't know if I'm ready to commit to pu/pd yet.  She is still having bad nights, but I do feel like I'm having some success with shh/pat now that I am leaving the room after a few minutes...no, she doesn't go right back to sleep but she DOES go back to sleep.  I have also had some success with feeding her at 5:30 when she wakes and then putting her back down; it didn't work today, but it did work twice this week.  So I guess what I'm saying is that I don't feel like I've exhausted all of my other options yet.  I would like to try this new routine and see if it makes any difference.
What I really feel like is that I'm doing something wrong, probably during the day, that is affecting her sleep and that if I can figure out what it is then everything will work out. 
The biggest thing for me is that she sleeps through the night just as often as not which makes me think that I'm doing something wrong on the "bad" days, but I can't for the life of me figure out what it could be.
I do think she was OT today after waking up at 5:30 and then not napping well.  Her morning nap was 1 hr 40 min. so I thought we were off to a good start but then the afternoon nap was not good at all.
Other than shh/pat do you have suggestions on how to extend her naps?  I'm not having much luck at all with that.  When I first worked on getting over 45 min. naps around 3.5 months she still had the paci so I used that.  I know about w2s, but she doesn't wake up at a consistent time, it's anywhere between 30 min. to 1 hr.
Well, I'll stop rambling now.  As always, THANK YOU for everything!!!!!!!

[momofclaire]

It just sounds to me like she wakes occasionally and doesn't fully know how to put herself back to sleep as she thinks she needs you.  To be honest, I think that may be what you are doing wrong, if anything.     Is there a reason you are against pu/pd?  It isn't much different from doing pat/shh and leaving the room. 

The thing you need to ask yourself is "How much does she need you to get herself back to sleep?" 
Let me know how things go.

[Amandamom]

The big difference for me between pat/shh and pu/pd is the picking up.  I've been settling my LO in the crib and the few times that I've picked her up she just cries louder.  I think picking her up over and over again would confuse her and just wake her up more.  Plus, truthfully, pu/pd seems illogical to me...I don't doubt the people that say it has worked for them, but I can't commit to do something that fundamentally doesn't make sense to me because I wouldn't stick with it.

Last night was awful.  My LO was up from 1:00 to 4:30 last night.  After she had been awake for two hours and crying for most of that time I started doing dumb stuff...I got her up and rocked her for awhile but everytime I would make a move to put her back in bed she would start crying again, after she'd been up for 3 hours I fed her and put her back down and it took another half an hour to get her back to sleep.

I agree that she can't put herself back to sleep when she wakes in the middle of the night.  What I don't know is what to do about it.  She falls asleep on her own at naps and at bedtime; I don't know what is different in the middle of the night so I don't know what I should do differently.

Here's the thing, what I'm doing isn't working.  And while I completely agree that her daytime sleep is affecting her nighttime sleep, I can't force her to sleep during the day, I'm doing everything that I know how to do.  Plus, I've messed with her schedule so much she is probably just as confused as I am.  When I look at the days where I've written down her naps and sleep, she had multiple days where she got the same amount of sleep during the day but had a different result at night.  So, really the bottom line is that I can't keep just hoping for the best which is essentially all that I'm doing right now.

Each day my anxiety level rises and I don't want to go to bed at night because I dread being up for hours and feeling helpless.  I just feel like a horrible mom because I can't get her to sleep or to nap and I am putting every ounce of energy and thought that I have into getting her to sleep.

So, I need to try something new, a different method.  I'm not sure what that is yet, but something has got to change.  I am going to stick to the EASY that you gave me for a week, because I really like that routine, but I can't post about this anymore...the whole situation is just too frustrating for me.

Again, none of this means that I am not appreciative of all of your advice and support, it has been invaluable!!!!!!  I think BW is great and it is and will continue to be my first "line of defense" but for this problem I need to do something different.  I'm very sorry that I'm not going to be a success story on this, but that is my fault and has nothing to do with any of you.
THANK YOU!!!!!! 

[momofclaire]

I just have hugs right now.  I understand your frustration.
On a more personal note...
Please don't be so hard on yourself.  Try not to overthink everything and remember that your baby can probably sense your frustration and stress and will certainly react negativly to that. 

If you need anything else, please post.  Also, feel free to post in the lounge for hugs and support if you just need that.

Myia

[Peek-a-boo]

{{{hugs}}}

Let me know if there's anyway I can be of help. 

[Amandamom]

Hello ladies!  I'm back and in a much better place than I was last time I posted.  After my disastrous night I went and bought Dr. Ferber's book and found it to be very helpful, although I have not and will not follow the cry it out method in his book I found a lot of the other information to be great.  For one thing, it stated that a six month old needs 11.5 to 13.5 hours of total sleep in 24 hours, which is somewhat significantly less than the 14-16 that Tracy suggests and from what I was trying to get my LO to do.  I feel horrible that it took me this long to figure it out, but I think one of the fundamental problems was that I was expecting her to sleep too much.  I think that she was bouncing back and forth between overtired and undertired which is why we were having such a hard time figuring out which way to go to solve her problem.  If nothing else the Ferber book reassured me that under my new routine my LO would be getting "enough" sleep.
Now, things are by no means perfect, but in the last 9 days she has only had one day where she didn't nap well and only one night where she was up during the night.  My biggest issue right now is that she wakes up between 5:45 and 6:15 a.m. and I would like for it to be closer to 6:30, but she is content to play in her crib until 6:30 so that is what I've been doing.
I've been following momofclaire's EASY with just a few changes.  So, a typical day this week has looked like this:
wake up at 6:00
E: 6:30
A: cereal and fruit at 8:00
S: 8:30
E: 10:00
A: vegetable or fruit at 11:30
S: 12:30
E: 2:00
A:
S: 4:30
E: 5:00
A:
bath between 6:45 and 7:00, in bed between 7:15 and 7:30, asleep by 7:45 or 8:00

I've been writing everything down and it seems that 3.5 hours of naps and 10-10.5 hours at night is what works for us.  We still have some things to work on, like the early wake up time, but our days have been much more consistent and pleasant.  Plus, the one night where she did wake up in the middle of the night she was up for an hour, but never cried just grunted and made noise and put herself back to sleep, so I never even had to get out of bed!!! And that was the night when she hadn't napped well so it made sense why she was having a rough night.

Although I read the Ferber book it was really just reassuring me that a little less sleep was okay.  It was really all of the advice from you all that got me to this point.  I really, really appreciate all of the support and advice which is why I wanted to come back and let you guys know that it seems as though we've turned a corner.  The later bedtime and letting her stay awake when she gets up at 6:00 have made a big difference.
If you have any suggestions on the early wakings I would appreciate it.  I'm not too worried about it since she is happy to play until 6:30...I'm thinking she might catch on if I continue to leave her in there until 6:30??

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR EVERYTHING!!!

[Peek-a-boo]

I'm so glad that you posted and so glad that things are going better!  I was just thinking of you, so it's great to hear an update. 

I had a really similar experience with Ferber's book--don't agree with is sleep training techniques--but his sleep totals and sleep info really helped me work out my son's routine.

About the early waking--having read Ferber, you know the stuff about how light really sets the body's clock.  So if you'd like a later wake time, letting her be in her dark room for a bit after she wakes (if she's content) is great.  Realize though, if you have her on a nicely balanced routine getting adaquete sleep totals, she's unlikely to add sleep to her routine and sleep later in the morning.  If she starts sleeping later in the morning it will likely shift her entire routine later and you'll end up with a later bedtime--which isn't a bad think if you'd rather be up late than up early, but you may lose some of your evening Y time. 

 

[Amandamom]

Thanks!  I do realize that about sleeping later, but I would actually prefer for her to be up later in the evenings eventually.  My husband doesn't get home from work until about 6:30, sometimes later so it would be nice if we weren't so rushed in the evenings and he had more time to spend with her.  The 6:00 a.m. wake up doesn't bother me too much though, so if she stays consistent for another week or so I may just go with it and start getting her up then.  Right now I'm still just happy that she isn't up for hours in the middle of the night.