Sleepless and tired

[Emmy's Mum]

I'm wondering if anyone can help us as we are almost at the point of giving up and letting our baby cry it out...

Our little one is 9 months (adjusted age) and he has been very very unsettled of a night. Up until he turned 6 months, he was a great sleeper and although he did not sleep through the night he came very close (7 hour stretches). But now we are lucky if we get 3 straight hours. He suffers from severe eczema and allergies so I guess we've been letting it go thinking that he's probably very itchy and uncomfortable, however, his skin has improved but his sleep has gotten worse  . Here's our daytime routine:

6.30am            Wake and 250mL bottle
7.30am             Breakfast
8.00 - 8.30 am   Sleep
10.30am            Wake and snack
11.30-12pm       Lunch then a 250mL bottle straight after
1pm                 Sleep
2.30                 Wake (sometimes he'll only have a 40 minute nap here in which case we try to pat him back to sleep with mixed results)
                       Snack
4.30-5pm          Dinner
6.00pm             250mL bottle                       
6.30-7pm          Sleep
He has another 250mL bottle between 10-12pm

I know that he should probably have an evening catnap in there but I have tried and tried and it is impossible to put him down for a sleep then - he just refuses it.

After his final bottle of a night is when things go downhill. He gets up every 2-3 hours, screaming and crying and will only be consoled by patting, and head rubbing (a habit we got into when his eczema was bad and his scalp was itchy). We try to feed him and he'll refuse the bottle initially but will take it eventually (this calms him down somewhat), and we could then shush pat him back to sleep. However, we have been doing this for over a week now and things seem to be getting worse not better. I don't understand why this is happening as he definitely can sleep independently without any help from us, but he wakes up through the night obviously needing or wanting something and we can't work out what....We also have a 2 year old and I am exhausted.  Any advice would be much appreciated.   

[rob1lu2]

Hi!

Sorry to hear things are going so poorly! So glad you stopped here before CIO! Let's see if we can help you! 

One of the first things I've noticed from your routine is that he isn't getting enough sleep during the day. He's OT which is one of the reasons he's probably waking at night and one reason he's probably taking such a short AM nap. Most naps that are under 45 min are a result of OT. When they are OT they wake up and are so tired they can't get themselves back to sleep. So first let's see if we can get him to sleep a bit more during the day for a few days and see if that doesn't help with the night time wakings.

If he's 9 months old, he should be able to stay awake a bit longer first thing in the morning, although I understand if he's tired he might not be able to. You want about 3 hours (at least) of daytime sleep and 11-12 hours of night time sleep. Strictly from a sleeping POV you want to shoot for something more like this...

6:30 Wake
9:30 S
11:00/11:30 Wake
2:30/3:00 S
4:00/5:00 Wake
6:30/7:00 S

I'm sure he's refusing the bottle at night b/c he's not hungry. He's eating very well during the day. Is that 10-12 bottle a DF or are you feeding him when he wakes? If it's a DF, that could be disturbing his sleep. Does he need the DF? If so, try moving it closer to 10pm so that it doesn't interupt his sleep cycles.

Does he take a pacifier? I would give him that instead of the bottle if he does.

Can he sleep in the stoller or in the car? As the day wears on and he gets more tired, you might want to try taking him for a walk or a drive and see if he'll crash out.

You may also want to try putting him down earlier to bed. Closer to 6:00 or even 5:30 for a few night so he can catch up on his sleep. That last stretch between 2:30 and 7:00 is a lloooonnnnnggg time for him to be awake, which is why I suggest the earlier bedtime or the stroller/car nap.

Let me know what you think!

Lu

[Emmy's Mum]

He actually does have a good 1.5 to 2 hrs sleep in the morning. So he does get at least 3 hrs of daytime sleep (if he has a long afternoon sleep). The feed at 10-12 at night is when he wakes up. He doesn't use a pacifier atm - should I try giving him that instead of the bottle anyway? I do agree that the last awake time is too long but he refuses to take another nap (the yelling and crying that accompanies our attempts...!) But I will try and move his bedtime earlier to see if that helps. However, even on days where he follows the perfect routine (as per your suggestion - somedays it does work out exactly as you've written), the nights are still shocking. It's like he becomes a different baby! Angel by day, monster by night!  As for catching a nap in the car or stroller - it takes forever for him to fall asleep if he does and usually its also accompanied by yells and crying...I'm stumped...

[Amandamom]

He probably is OT now from all of the nightwakings that he has been having, but IMO he is probably getting enough daytime sleep, maybe just a little too little, but not much, I don't think.  I don't want to disagree with anyone, I'm just making an alternate suggestion.  Maybe try have a consistent 3 hr A time for him for a few days and see if that does help with the nights.  At the very least it will help him not have such a long stretch in the evenings.
I wouldn't feed him at night.  It doesn't sound like he's hungry and you don't want to create a more problematic situation by making him think that he should eat at night.  What happens when he wakes at night and what do you do?
Is it possible that he is getting a tooth or has an ear infection?

[Emmy's Mum]

Hello - now that I've finally posted for some help my little one has a good night  Last night was great, he woke for his 11 o'clock feed then slept through till 4am where he had another bottle and went straight back to sleep till 7am. I don't know if this will be the new pattern (keeping our fingers crossed) or whether he'll go back to normal tonight (that is, wake every 1-3 hours screaming).

He could be teething (that never stops does it??), or it could be his eczema (though I doubt this as his skin has cleared dramatically). When he wakes during the night, we pat/shush and head rub him to try and calm him down. When this fails, we offer him a bottle which he'll refuse initially, but will eventually take. We only do this because it calms him down enough for us then to be able to pat him back to sleep. Usually though, as soon as we stop patting he awakens and yells. This goes on for about an hour (half an hour if we're lucky). 

I am going to try to extend his awake time to 3 hours or 2.5 at the very least. He doesn't seem able to do 3 hours easily - he starts to get tired at the 2 hr mark which is why I've been putting him down early previously. I'm going to try to aim for the sleep routine Lu suggested (or similar)...Maybe one day we'll get a full 12 hours sleep out of him?!

[Amandamom]

When I have extended times for my LO it has helped to carry her around the house and sing to her.  It is relaxing and gets her ready for her nap, but she is able to stay awake.  That could be exhausting though to do for an hour if he starts getting tired at 2 hours.  You could try taking a walk in the stroller with him, but only if he'll stay awake.
On the EASY board there is a post in the FAQ about transitioning from 3 to 4 hr EASY, which is basically you had 15 min. of A time every 3 days...you could try that if you think a more gradual approach would work better for your LO.

[rob1lu2]

Hi!

I am SO sorry, my bad! I read your routine incorrectly! He is getting fine daytime sleep. Again, my mistake!

Of course he slept well after you posted! He's trying to keep you on your toes!

But I do think he could extend his A times dramatically. It's a good plan to extend them 15 minutes at a time. I know it can be hard to extend them. They will resist but you must insist!  To extend my LOs A times I will walk them in the stroller, sit quietly with them, etc. Hopefully he'll be able to extend.

I agree with PP that you might want to try reducing his night time bottles. Waking up at 11pm could be disrupting his sleep cycle. Even when you DF they recommend that you do it closer to 10pm so as not to disrupt the sleep cycles.

I wouldn't introduce a pacifier at this point if you haven't so far. You say you do the shush/pat when he wakes. Are you doing the shush portion? They say thta fter 6 months the shushing disturbs them, so if you are I might stop that.

My LOs only sleep 11 hours, so you may never get 12 hours out of him. But certainly if he wakes at 6:30, I would put him down closer to 6:30 than to 7:00.

HTH,
Lu

[Amandamom]

Here is the link I was talking about:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63161.0

Obviously you are transitioning to 3 hrs of A time, not 2 hrs of A time, but the idea is there.  Since your LO is older and you have a ways to go to get to the "goal" you could try extending A times a half an hour at a time instead of 15 min., but that is only if you think it will work for your LO and not make him completely OT.  As always you know your LO best.

For some reason the link isn't showing up when I post even though it is here when I modify my post.  So...if you go to the EASY board and click on the FAQ section it is the first thread.

[Emmy's Mum]

Thanks Amanda - I will check it out.

We had a particularly bad night last night again....Prob because his naps were all off yesterday and he was overtired....Am aiming for a better routine today - wish me luck! (I am sooo tired...)

I do try to get his A time extended by distracting him and carrying him around but it's so difficult to spend this time with him when I also have a 2 year old who demands just as much of my time - it's sometimes a relief to get him to sleep early!

I have been doing the shushing - I'll stop then - does that mean that singing would be out too? (my hubby loves to sing to him - he thinks he can put him to sleep just by his voice   !)

As for eliminating the 11pm bottle -  I was thinking about doing it gradually by diluting it (I saw a post in here somewhere the other day) - what do you think? Otherwise he will yell the roof down - my poor neighbours!

Thanks so much Lu and Amanda for your suggestions! It's sooo appreciated!  

[rob1lu2]

So sorry you had a rough night. It makes the days tough too.

You can reduce the 11pm bottle a number of ways. Some suggest diluting it. Or you can gradually decrease the amount you offer. So if he usually takes 6 oz, tomorrow you would give him 5 and continue with five for three days. Then go down to four oz for three days, then three oz for three days, then two oz, then stop. You are giving him a chance to consume that one oz that you took away at night during the day.

If he doesn't seem disturbed by the singing, then tell your Frank Sinatra to keep it up.  :)Only you know for sure.

Let us know how it goes!

[Bryony]

Hi there Emmy's mum - just wanted to drop in and say hello and give you a hug!  Sounds as though you have been given some great advice.

I would agree it probably means her daytime needs tweaking - and gently trying to push those A times would make sense to me too. In terms of getting rid of the night feed there is a great link in the NWs FAQs section on how to get rid of the night feeds.

For the shh - if it works for your LO I would carry on, personally. It still works for us - patting has never worked, but the shhing has. I think you do whatever seems to work for your LO.  And if your husband can sign people to sleep can we borrow him when you're done?!

Amandamom - for the links to work you have to take out the http://

Bryony x

[Emmy's Mum]

Hi there, thanks for your support.

Last night was a "good" night - he only woke for feeds and went straight back to sleep. We've decided to start reducing his 2am feed so I gave him 150mL (he usually takes 200 of the 250mL). According to my husband (I was out cold- did not even hear him cry!), he drank it dry, threw the bottle aside then rolled over and went straight back to sleep! He was up again at 5.30am at which time we gave him the full 250mL.

I think we'll do it gradually, we're going to work on the 2am feed, then the 10-12am one...Or do you think we should do it all in one hit?

His naps have been all over the place today again so I am expecting another difficult night....

I'm going out tonight to the theatre with a girlfriend The hubby will have to sing him to sleep tonight! 

[Bryony]

I would do it gradually....

.. and enjoy tonight!

Bryony