Really struggling with the end of the day

[jessmum46]

Hey honey, sorry not to be around for a while - things have been a bit rough over here this week . How are you doing?

I'm guessing discomfort from heat/teeth will have been playing a part in your sleep troubles.  Possibly overstimulation in a new environment too?  What about a growth spurt?  If he's wanting to feed more than usual just go with it and trust your body to catch up .

Hope you are enjoying your break x

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yeah I wondered about OS too.  I think he's possibly in an UT/OT loop cos we're just getting short naps all day now. The best nap he's had each day has been 1hr 20/25 and all the others have been 35-45 minutes.  We've had some very long A's before bed and nw's at 9-10.30 most nights.  Though we've just been trying out dropping the df cos it was interfering with night feeds so that could be having an impact too.

This morning we did 2 hrs 15 A time with a very long wd and he did a 1hr 20/25 nap. If tonight goes ok i might try a bit longer if he doesn't look tired.  He's 4 and a half months now and his morning A time has generally been near the top end for his age so logically 2 hrs 15-20 is probably about right for him first thing but we can't get a good nap on it yet. So the whole day is a wreck now.

His teeth are through now at least.  We're going home in a couple of days so I think I'll keep trying to keep on top of OT like I have (very hard with so many short naps) and I'll start trying to figure him out properly at the weekend.

Hope your week has improved?

[jessmum46]

We're getting there - thanks for asking

J could manage a full A time usually on a 1h20-25 nap - that's pretty much two full sleep cycles so I would call that a decent nap.  It might mean he needs another slight push to get a full 1h30 but he may never do 2h naps -J certainly didn't unless she was utterly exhausted.  1h30 is a good restorative nap so give yourself some credit - you're doing well!  FWIW J was high A times at this age and we were on 3h A time and 2 naps by about 5.5m x

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Well he's just started rolling today as well so too many variables affecting sleep now!  I'll need some help getting back on track I expect cos it's been so long since we had decent naps he's bound to have changed in the meantime.  Blimey - 2 teeth,  rolling,  dropping the df and the hottest weather of the year,  all when we're away.  What a week!

I'm sure you're right that he does need a bit of a push,  especially for that first nap.  He did 2 hrs 15 A time this morning but only napped for 1hr 10.  I'll try that first once we get home and let you know how we get on.

[jessmum46]

Great, keep me posted x

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Right, I'm back!  We got back from holidays 4 days ago, teeth are through, dream feed properly dropped and rolling back to front (but not front to back) mastered.  I thought we were starting to get back on track but the last 2 days things have gone wonky again and I am so sick of not knowing what he needs, getting short naps all over the place and generally being all over the place.  I'd really like to get some semblance of a routine going, at least one that works more than half the time but I don't know where to start!  Apologies in advance, this is probably going to be long...

After we came back from holiday I figured he was pretty OT so I stuck to our old A times and we had one bad day setting back in, and then a good day of 2 longer naps when he caught up.  Then it went wrong again so here's our EASY for the last 3 days....

Sunday:
WU: 7.50am (at least a 13 hour night i think. 2 night feeds - one of which was 6am after which he went straight back to bed).  We woke him.
E: 9am
A: 2 hrs 25 (pd at 2hr 15 but he struggled to settle)
S: 10.15- 11.55 (1hr 40)

E: 12.30
A: 2 hrs
S: 1.55 - 3.35 (1 hr 40)

E: 4ish
A: 2hrs 10ish
S: 4.45 - 5.15 I think (in buggy)

A: 1hr 30 I think - BT at 6.30ish, asleep by 6.45

nfs @ 12.10 and 6am

Monday:

WU: 7.30am
E: 8.30
A: 2 hrs 25 (pd at 2hrs 15)
S: 9.55 - 10.40 (45 minutes).  Settled fine.

E: 12ish
A: 2hrs (very short wd as had friends over and they arrived shortly before nap was due)
S: 12.40 - 1.20 (40 minutes)

E: 3ish
A: 1hr 55
S: 3.20 - 4.10 (50 minutes)

A: 2hrs 40 but pd after 2hrs 20.  Asleep by 6.40

nfs @ 12.30 and 5.30am

Today so far:

WU: 7.40am
E: 8.30am
A: 2hrs 40.  pd just after 2hrs 25ish though he did yawn at 2hrs 5.  I ignored it though cos trying to stretch A times after what I assumed was UT nap yesterday morning.  Protested nap loudly!
S: 10.25 - 11.40 (1 hr 15-18)

E: 12ish
A: 2 hrs 5 (pd at 1hr 55 after 1 yawn)
S: 1.45 - 2.20 (35-38 minutes)

He's woken from that last nap clearly tired and grumpy

Any ideas what's going on?  And how do I sort it?

ETA: He was actually much happier after a feed following that last nap but surely he should be able to go more than 2.5 hours between feeds? I also did a top up feed before his next nap and pd at 1hr 40, and he still wouldn't settle so I offered him a 5oz bottle, which he drained.  He's now upstairs chatting to himself 2 hrs 10 after his last nap.

Since we ditched the df he has been more hungry in the day but we've been offering top up bottles immediately after a feed and the last couple of days he's refused them all. I think I'll try offering a top up feed before naps tomorrow but it feels like his A times aren't right either. I can't seem to find a baseline for him which works....

[jessmum46]

I wonder if the 45 min nap on the second day you posted wasn't UT, but was just that he couldn't/didn't transition?  He's having plenty of A time so I would have thought UT was probably unlikely.  I think then that on the Mon he was OT for his second nap (pretty much a full A after a short nap) and I would suspect OT for the first nap on Tues as well. 

With the feeds, do you think he could have hit his 4m growth spurt?  He might need some shorter A times for a bit too - J is often very tired when the GS hit.  What about if you tried pd at 2h for his first A for a day or two and see what happens?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

That makes total sense,  thanks.  I only saw your reply just as I was putting him down for his first nap at 2 hrs 15 (bit later than planned due to monkeying about from my daughter) so I'll bear in mind that he might need shorter A times for the rest of the day and try again tomorrow with pd at 2 hrs. Will let you know how we get on

With regards to the feeding I'm not sure what's going on.  He definitely had a gs at 10 and 15 weeks - he visibly grew after the the second one.  I assumed he just had his 3 and 4 month ones early.  However,  when we were away he definitely needed more milk cos I was topping up with a bottle (I know not the best plan but there we go! ). It stopped for a couple of days but yesterday he was hungry again.  I wondered if it was either him upping the amount of calories he needs in the day after dropping the dream feed as he's having one less nf now?  Or it's another gs related to rolling?  Or he's just a growth spurty boy?!

[jessmum46]

Boys and their stomachs hey?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Just a quick question in case you see this before tomorrow.... Assuming he does a decent (1.5 hr plus) nap tomorrow morning,  what do you think his second A time should be?  He tends to cut right back on that if his first A is too long and generally likes it a bit shorter than his first A anyway.  Today we had:

Nfs @ 1.30 and 5.30
WU: 7am

E: 8.45
A: 2 hrs 25 (pd at 2 hrs 15)
S: 9.25 - 11.30 - 2 hrs 5

E: 12
A: 2 hrs (pd at 1hr 55)
E: 1pm top up feed
S: 1.30 - 2.10 (40 minutes)

Then it all went horribly wrong.  Suffice to say he was hungry again before his third nap and by the time it was sorted he was OT and wouldn't nap.  He did eventually sleep in my husbands arms and we tried for an early night but he fought it big style and only settled at 7.15 - 1 hr 45 after a 20 minute cat nap.

Tomorrow we'll try pd at 2hrs for the first nap then 1hr 45 for the second?  Or try 2 hrs!again but hopefully less OT if he's had less A time first thing?

[jessmum46]

Sorry I'm probably too late for you now - what did you do?

That day you posted, was he happy waking from the second nap?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

That day you posted, was he happy waking from the second nap?

I can't remember I'm afraid but I must have thought he was OT cos I initially tried putting him down at 1 hr 30. It's very rare for him to wake up grumpy but I'll note it when he does if I remember. He's a real chilled out, happy boy so it's not often he's not smiling

Still not sure what's going on here....  He seems very tired still really.   The last two days have gone like this:

Nf @ 12.30 & 5.45
WU: 7.35
E: 9
A: 2hrs 15. Pd @2 hrs
S: 9.50 - 11.50 (2 hrs). I woke him.

E: 12.30
A: 2 hrs. Pd @ 1 hr 55
S: 1.50 - 2.40 (50 minutes). Woke happy.

E: 3.30 & bottle at 4ish
A: 1hr 55ish. Pd @ 1hr 40.
S: 4.35 - 5.15 (40 minutes). We woke him.

E: 8 oz plus bf @ 6.40
A: 2 hrs 15 by the time he went to sleep but pd @ 1hr 45. Settled fine for bed!  Hooray!  This is very rare!
S: Asleep at 7.30ish

Nf@ 11.30 & 5.40

Today:

Wu @ 8.05
E: 9.15
A: 2hrs 10. Pd @ 2hrs
S: 10.15 -11.30 (1hr 15). Cried out at 30 mins.  Assume OT?!

E:12.30 & 6ozs @ 1
A: 1hr 45. Pd @1hr40
S: 1.15 - 3.45 (2.5 hrs). Cried out at 50 mins.  Wouldn't normally let him sleep past 2 hrs but figured he needs it.... Hope I don't regret it tonight!

E: 4 but hungry again by 5
A: 2hrs 45/50 in the end. Tried for a catnap at 5.30 (1hr45 A time) but he was hungry and wouldn't settle.  Since he struggles to nap after 5 anyway I didn't want to feed and abandon it so close to BT so tried to settle him for 20 minutes then plumped for early BT instead. Pd @ 2hrs 35. Settled fine again!  Asleep by 6.35 I think.

It seems strange to me that he was OT after such a great night and only 2 hrs after waking this morning but i'm sure that's what it was. He woke crying rather than chatting.  So not sure if I should continue with pd @ 2hrs tomorrow morning? And still not sure about A time for that second nap? 

[jessmum46]

That first day was pretty good!  Probably an UT second nap after such a good first one but great that he settled so well at BT despite the short afternoon naps

First nap on the second day could have been a little accumulated OT perhaps from short pm naps the day before, hence the call out?  DD does this sometimes.....but well rescued for a great pm nap

You know, I think probably the best thing to do is just pick some A times and stick with them for a few days in a row.  Stick with pd at 2h first A for a couple more days and then maybe just under 2h second A if a short nap, just over if a long one?  I do think you're doing really well though

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Thank you! Yes, I was wondering about sticking with certain A times but then last night he woke at 9.30 OT,  wouldn't quite settle (was quiet on and off but not going back to sleep), then at 10.30 his cry changed.  We couldn't settle him so fed just before 11 but he'd been up 1.5-2 hrs by the time he was fed and back to sleep. So I cut back on A times again today as I knew he'd be tired (he woke slightly earlier this morning too). We woke him from a 2 hr nap after 1 hr 55 A time.  He then did an OT (I think) 1 hr 15 nap on 1hr 50 A time and ended the day with a 50 minute UT nap (I assume - he woke happy)  which gave him a long time til bedtime,  even with an early night.  He really struggled to settle for bedtime and seemed to go to sleep for 5 minutes then wake and couldn't settle again without a breastfeed which he never has at bedtime.

I don't know... It's so hard to keep up!  I think I will just stick to one lot of A times but am worried that if I get them wrong he'll just get more OT? Or will he get through it if I'm consistent?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Sorry, just thinking about being consistent with A times. ... generally if I do the same A time for his first and second naps we get an OT second nap.  It happened today as well.  He's been yawning at around 1hr 50 and a yawn always means OT here.  He's always preferred about 15 minutes less A time for his second nap so should I stick to pd at 2 hrs for both naps or do 2 hrs and 1hr 45 which I think would suit him better?  Or is the idea to push him and get him used to higher A times?