3-2 nap transition with 7.5 months old and breast feeding

[karindmor]

Hi there!  I've been having some sleep issues and was chatting with a gal on the General Sleep Issues board.  I'm not sure if I got some great advice from her, and she basically said I need to increase A times and do some sleep training.  My 7.5 month old son is still breast feeding and I am just now starting to introduce solids (I know I'm a little late to the game).  We were on a good 4 hour EASY for awhile and things and life just kind of got side tracked.  His sleep has been really off lately, at night and naps so I want to start another EASY appropriate for his age.

I'm trying to extend his A times and drop the catnap, but it's pretty challenging.  Right now the A time for his morning nap is between 2.5-2.75 hrs.  I'm trying to make his A time for second nap and BT between 2.75-3 hours. 

I'm wondering about how feedings go...so like today:
0800: W/E
1050: laid him down to sleep (trying to introduce PUPD again after having successfully done it at 4.5 months)
1145: E
1200:S

How do the feedings work if he's used to eating every 4-5 hours?  If he's supposed to take a 2 hour nap x2 a day, won't that cut into his feeding times?  I'm just afraid that when he can't go to sleep it's because he's hungry.  I still have a hard time telling the difference between his cries.  He doesn't really have feeding cues anymore.  Just tired cues like rubbing his ears or scratching his head. 

[karindmor]

Oh and one more thing...He usually wakes up around 6 or 7 am, but today I let him sleep until 8 because he's had a slight cough the last few days.  So since he didn't lay down for his first nap until noon and he needs about 3 hours A times, that would put his second nap at 5, which should obviously just turn into an EBT.  When ever I've put him to bed early, it's like he treats it like a nap and will only sleep for 2 hours or so and then he'll be awake for 2.5 hours like he was last night.   

[Shiv52]

When I went to 2 naps our routine looked something like:

8am wake up and BF
11 nap
12.30 wake up and BF
3.30 nap
5 wake up and BF
8pm BF and bed

We still did a DF or NF too I'm sure.

We were only doing one solid meal at 7 months and that was breakfast about 9am. Then we added lunch then dinner but it was a good while before we were consistently on 3 meals so don't worry too much about that.  Milk feeds are still more important at this stage anyways.

With today's routine I'd do a short nap at 5pm and maybe let him sleep 45 minutes then aim for bed around 8pm ish.  So just a CN and then on to bed.

At this age you do need to get those A times up to 3 hours. And I'd say its more realistic to expect naps to be 1.5 ish hours rather than 2 hours but see how you get on.

[karindmor]

Great thanks so much!!  I wasn't too sure what to do about today so I let him sleep for 2.5 hours even though I know on a normal day I would only let him go for 2 hours.  But I'll try a short nap at 5 as well!!  It sounds like it's a fine line trying to increase A times.  I wasn't too sure why he didn't go to sleep right at the 2.75 hr mark.  So instead his A times for this morning were almost 4 hours and that's only bc I fed him.  I wonder how long he would've been up had I not fed him...I think this is going to be a rough transition :-/

[Shiv52]

I think you'll be surprised.  Hes pretty much there anyways.  I think he was just very refreshed after his lie in this morning. So I'd aim to start pushing those A times to three hours. If he's used to 2,5/2.75 first thing then do 3/4 days of 2.75 then push to 3 and that's you sorted. Do similar with the others too although he seems to be nearly there with those anyways. Makes it sound easy eh?!!

Is he an independent sleeper?  Did you want to work on that?

[karindmor]

He can fall asleep on his own, though not all the time.  I did PUPD successfully at 4.5 months, though we got away from it when he started sleeping better.  And then when he started having problems about 3 weeks ago, we started in with all sorts of props!!  Rocking/bouncing/feeding haha.  I'm trying to do PUPD for his age now.  He hates it.  The past few days I've bounced around with 2.5-2.75 although he can never really reach the 2.75 yet!!  I think I did it one day and he was up forever like he was today.  One of the moderators said it was bc his body gets a rush of adrenaline since he's not going to sleep exactly when he wants and has become OT.  Yesterday I did 2.5 A in the morning and only got 1.5 hour nap (probably an UT nap), but then if I try for 2.75 hours he doesn't go to sleep right away, so it's really hard to know what time I should aim for 

[Shiv52]

Yes but the reason you've got into this pickle
Is because he is UT to start off with. So he fights sleep then you have to intervene so yes of course he gets a second wind.

I read your other thread and I agree with Ali. You need to get your A Times up. PU/PD is really hard to do but pretty impossible if you are trying to get an UT baby to sleep.

You will really need to help him
During that extended A time to keep him awake. Take a walk outside if needs be but keep
Things low key. Then do your winddown and get him to bed. So 2.75 for 3 days then upto 3 hours. Tracey was pretty clear that when establishing a routine you need to be consistent. And in making sure you use proper A Times

[karindmor]

No wonder PUPD was so much harder for me this time! Thanks so much for clearing that up!! Ill just push through to 2.75 then since it sounds like I may just need to risk those OT hormones.  I feel like I always shoot for 2.75 in the morning when he wakes up but then I end up holding him for an hour before nap time bc he seems so fragile. His cues are deceiving!  I was more concerned with the feeds and making sure he wasn't hungry. I hope I can make my EASY look like the one you posted

[Shiv52]

No wonder PUPD was so much harder for me this time!

LOL! It's so hard to see the wood for the trees when you're in the middle of it. It's a million times harder to get an UT baby to sleep than an OT one. And even harder is an UT baby who ends up OT!! 

Yes just a gentle push in the direction of A times. Personally I wouldn't worry too much about self settling and just get him used to the new routine so certainly ssh pat and reassure. That'll help him not get too OT

Keep us posted x

[karindmor]

Oh and real quick. Should I do 2.75 across the board all day or increase it to 3 if he has a good nap and before BT? Or just keep it the same all day? If he has a short nap (less than 1.5 hrs) do I drop the A time o 2.5 or keep it the same?

[Shiv52]

I may be too late. If you get a decent nap I'd push to 3 but try 2.75 across the board. Any nap over an hour push to 2.75. Less you may need to do 2.5.

HTH xx

[karindmor]

Hi!! I just wanted to update you!!
I got to 3 hours for the first nap (I did about 3 days of the 2.75 hr A time). Yesterday was the first day of 3 hr A time and he only did a 35 min nap. So I bumped him down to 2.75 hrs A time for the next nap and he did 1.25 hrs. Not long enough :-/ so we did a 25 min catnap.
He fell asleep right at 7 but then woke up at 945. I fed him since it had been about 3 hrs but he woke up at 1045. I did PUPD with him until 12 and was too exhausted so I fed him.

He did fine the rest of the night. He woke up at 750 today so I laid him down at 1050 and he slept for 35 min again. PUPD didn't seem to be working to get him back to sleep so I just got him up. How long should I do PUPD after a short nap?

I was planning on making his A time 2.75 hrs again before his second nap. I'm worried about him becoming OT though. What do you think? I wrote something in PUPD forum but a moderator hasn't responded at all after a few days.

[Shiv52]

Yes Hun I'd try 2.75. Do you think 3 is too much first thing?  Maybe do 2.75 tomorrow?

With my LOs if I didn't get them back over within 5-10 minutes then they were never going back to sleep. PU/PD may be too stimulating to extend a nap. Have you tried just sh patting? 

[karindmor]

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly!!
I was wondering if 3 hrs was too long first thing. Would you consider those 35 min naps as OT naps? Ill drop it to 2.75 for the afternoon one. And try 2.75 tomorrow morning. And if I don't get 1.5 hrs first nap tomorrow then I guess he's not ready for 3 hrs yet :/

I guess I don't really do PU, I just do PD. he doesn't really respond to the patting, so ill say sleepy phrases, shhhh, and scratch his chest or legs. Hoping that doesn't turn into a prop!

Do you think the NW will resolve once I get his daytime routine down? I'm afraid he's becoming OT bc he doesn't go back to sleep after waking up from a nap and then he's up!

[Shiv52]

No at this age it would be very unusual not to be able to manage 3 hours. I think because he's been used to 2.5 its maybe just been too big a jump. So do 2.75 for 3/4 days and see how it goes. You need to be consistent for a run of day to know if its working.

Those EW NWs are likley OT so once you get your routine sorted it should help those.

Has he ever been an independent sleeper?