DESPERATE Please explain sh/pat and help with EASY for almost 4 months old

[Layla]

Ahh ok, now I understand. See I never really did things exactly by the book and I never did pu/pd because that would stimulate my lo too much. I used shhpat to teach mine how to fall asleep and give her the age appropriate A time and i accept that if she wakes early from her nap, it can be very much a developmental thing as well. Alot of mums here dont get the perfect EASY at this age due to short naps. When your lo wakes up, is she generally happy and would you be comfortable leaving her in the cot for another 15-20 mins? She might go back to sleep on her own? With the catnap, would she sleep in a pram/baby carrier. Most parents do the last nap by using accidental parenting because it can be the hardest nap due to baby being. Overtired or overstimulated...it really won't affect what you're trying to achieve and within the next couple of months this nap disappears anyway.

[AMJ]

Yes I did notice that pu/pd is to stimulating for her so I won't do it again- that was a total panic!
When she wakes up she is usually crying or first whining and then crying. She used to get up happy and bubbling but now it only happened twice in the morning and I did leave her there. Once she even fell back asleep but I woke her up at 7 because its her WU time. The other time she started crying so I tried to sh/pat her to extend her sleep till 7 but she never fell asleep so I got her up. According Tracy that's what I'm supposed to do and do that all day every day until the routine is established. So she will be OT by the afternoon for sure because she ends up sleeping less and getting longer A.
I think she might sleep in the stroller if we go for a walk. If that's ok to do on EASY I will try it for her CT. I think it might work. This is brilliant idea! Thanks so much!!!!!!! Plush she will get more time outside!!

[AMJ]

This was our day today. Looks pretty god only I had to extend all the nap.
Aug 3 2013

6:30 WU sh/pat 6:45 sh/pat
7:00 WU me+ A
8:12 E (12 min)
8:45 S (8:40 in bed)
10:05 WU sh/pat till 10:30

10:30 WU + A
11:50 E (4 min) 12:00 E (5 min)
12:15 S
12:50 WU sh/pat for 35 min. Stayed with her. WU 1:45 sh/pat

2:00 WU + A
3:04 E(5+ 4 + 4 min) stopped 10 min before nap
3:50 S ( stayed with her throught the whole nap all. She woke up 3 times so had to sh/pat)

5:23 WU + A + E
6:15 E (5 min + 30 )
7:07 BT
9:40 WU when we came to bed she woke up. we are in the same room so DF
10:06 S

10:37 WU sh/pat helped her get through jolts
10:54 S

11:25 WU  shshed to sleep

12:37 WU got her hand out from swaddle.
12:37 E


Just not sure why did she start to wake up crying so often during the night? She used to wake up only once or twice. its very tiriing.Is it because she is OT from me trying to establish a routine? It seems that she can't get herself through to the next sleep cycle anymore and maybe she got too used to sh/patting that she needs it all the time?

[AMJ]

Also at the times that she doesn't wake up when we come to bed and I try to DF- she wakes up while I try to pick her up but then falls asleep during DF. Is this ok? Or maybe The DF destructing the whole night?

Thank you so very much again!!!

[Layla]

So it sounds like you were able to extend the morning and afternoon nap. With the last nap though I would have left it as a short nap (this is the catnap) and you don't need to try and extend past 45mins... so it is possible she woke up more at night do to the catnap being too close to bedtime. Falling asleep during the DF and night feeds is fine. Have you been doing the DF for a while or did you introduce it when you started implementing EASY? Personally I never did the DF with any of my girls and I think with some LOs it does affect their sleep at night. Also with shh/pat, are you waiting to see if she will self settle and then if not, you're going in.

I noticed you've gotten rid of the E's before the S's... I think that's a great progress too and yes, when implementing a routine and stretching out A's, they can become a little overtired

[AMJ]

The reason I extended the last nap is because then there is to long of a A time left between it and BT and she won't last so much if she sleeps only 45 min. She went down for the last nap at 3:50 so if she slept 45 min then would've been up at 4:35 and its about 2 +hrs of A till 6:30/7.

I just introduced DF when I started EASY so 4-5 days ago.

Regarding sh/pat, up until yesterday I waited for her to self sooth but yesterday I went in as soon as she started fussing because it is easies to calm her down before she gets too upset and cries/ screams. U think that might be the reason for frequent NW?
Yes thanks our E's are not exactly at the right time but at least they are not right before S ) thank you again for responding!!

[Layla]

The last nap is only meant to be a catnap, which is probably why you were having trouble extending it and having to shh/pat her several times. In regards to her being able to stay up until usual bedtime... I would have probably done an earlier bedtime as if the last nap is too long and is too close to bedtime, that can also cause night wakings...so if her catnap ends around 4:30, bedtime would be 6.30pm and I would probably keep last A time fairly low key and do a longer bath or something like that. During any transition (and you will see this with 3-2, 2-1, 1-0 transitions), temporary early bedtime works well  .

Sometimes DFs can affect night sleep but in your case it may be a little bit of trial and error.

[AMJ]

Oh I see I get it now. Thanks!! I'll try the shorter CT and earlier bed time!! And i will stick to DF for a week and go from there. Thank you!!!:)

[Layla]

You're making great progress and it hasn't even been a week!!! Oh and Jenny was born on the 5th April and is 4 months today (I remember you asked what her DOB was and I never answered )

[AMJ]

It feels like I'm not though. You know with all those NW. She used to wake up 1 time at night from about 4 weeks old. I just don't understand why if the days are getting better. But sitting and sh/patting in the dark room is really getting me down. She slept better when she was a newborn. I thought it's supposed to get better not worse...
Our LOs are two  days apart. Evangeline was born on April 7 happy 4 months to Jenny!

[AMJ]

I take that back lol today was a great day
Aug 6 2013

7 WU + A( 1 hr 55 min)
8:20 E (5+5 min)
8:55 S (2 hrs)

10:55 WU I woke her up +A (1 hr 50 min)
12:20 E (on and off for 10-15 min)
12:45 S (2 hr)

2:45 WUi woke her up
2:50 E (5 min)+ A ( was supposed to be 1 hr 50 min but didnt fall asleep till 2 hr 5 min)
4:20 E few min
4:50 CT; 4:35 In bed winning sh/pat

5:30 WU +A (2 hrs)
6:25 E
7:30 S



Yeeeeyyyyyyy


But I have few questions

Do I let her sleep more then 2 hrs? Or do I wake her up?
Do I need to extend her naps if they are 1 hr 30 min or 1 hr 45 mins long?
Do I need to increase A ( its 1 hr 50 min now)if S is 2 hrs . What if S is 1 hr 30 min?
Do the A's need to be shorter before and after CN compared to A's in the morning and in the afternoon?

Very thankful!!!!

[Layla]

Haha i was thinking of bumping the thread to see how you are doing...i just need to step out and will be back to answer all your questions

[Layla]

Firstly, can I just say  to such a great day!

Do I let her sleep more then 2 hrs? Or do I wake her up?

I would wake her at 2 hrs and not let her sleep more than that because you want her to have a drive to sleep later on, if that makes sense. I am actually thinking that 2 hrs is too long for my LO as the other day she again skipped her catnap (and this time there was no one new around) and on this day she had 2x2 hr naps... she just didn't want to sleep anymore... that was an interesting evening lol!

Do I need to extend her naps if they are 1 hr 30 min or 1 hr 45 mins long?

No, you don't because not all babies will take 2 hr naps nor do they need to because 1hr30mins is restorative enough. For some babies (who's sleep cycle is only 40mins, 1hr20mins is enough and personally if my LO sleeps anymore than 45mins (be it just 1 hr), I do the happy dance, go to her, open the curtains and give her a big kiss for she has once again managed to transition through the dreaded 45 min mark hehehe

Do I need to increase A ( its 1 hr 50 min now)if S is 2 hrs . What if S is 1 hr 30 min?

I don't increase A time if S is 2hrs as opposed to 1.5hrs and I only decrease A time if mine has slept less than 45mins as I find that mine can do the full A time even on a 45 min nap. If you are finding that she is doing well a the 1hr50 min mark, then leave that as her A time for now.

Do the A's need to be shorter before and after CN compared to A's in the morning and in the afternoon?

This is a good question! A times are generally shortest in the morning, before the 1st nap (not by much, maybe 15mins or so). With us, A times are anywhere between 2-2.15hrs, with the longest A time in the evening, before bedtime (no more than 2.5hrs)... and that's on just a 45min catnap. So I would say it depends on your LO and again it might be a matter of trial and error but the A time in the evening we have settled on (2.15-2.5 hrs, depending on how organised I am with dinner, etc...even after a CN) is fine with us and doesn't affect her ability to fall asleep or how well she sleeps at night.  So it is quiet possible that your LO wasn't ready at 4:35 for the 3rd nap (CN) as she might need a little more A time (like mine, where A times increase a little as the day goes by).

Are you still doing the DF?

[AMJ]

Thank so much for your answers!
Yes I am still DF but I'm not sure if I will stick with it because then she wakes up at 3 or 4 am and after about an hour of eating and diaper change she is not hungry at 7. And then she ends up having E before S. I will DF for few more days just so it's a week and then decide.
By the way, if she wakes up before DF (ex. at 8:30 or 9:30) should I feed her and count it like a DF or its better to sh/pat her to sleep and then DF between 10 and 11?

[Layla]

I usually shh/pat if mine wakes up before 10pm but if its after, I feed. Also in regards to early morning feed...i offer full feed (which is only 1 side anyway sometimes) and then do top up feed (other side) upon wake up and go 3.5 hrs from there