can't get on EASY

[CJF]

hi
I have been trying to get on EASY for a couple of weeks now and I'm having a hard time.  (not sure if I should post this in feeding-bf or bottle)
I am having trouble with feedings and EASY.  Sometimes he is hungry and other times he doesn't seem so hungry. I think what is screwing everything up is trying to top him off when he wakes at 7:00/7:30.  he wakes anywhere from 4 to 6:30 to eat (if it is on the earlier side he will go back to sleep--if it is 6:30 then i will keep him up).  I will give an example of today....he woke at 4:30 and ate then woke for the day at 6:30-ish and I gave him a bottle to top him off about 7:30 and he took a few ounces.  Then he ate only 5 ounces at 10:00 and 4 ounces 2:00.  It seems as if he "snacks' on his bottle for the morning top off then he won't eat a full bottle (which is usually 8 oz) until late afternoon or evening.  Also topping him off always throws his times off too, because often he won't take anything for his top off bottle but then is hungry a short time later.  Then this interfers with nap and often wakes from nap wanting to eat. So how do you smooth out the eating times and naps if he won't take anything for a top off bottle or very little  at wake up time?  Should I start NOT feeding him if he wakes before a certain time?  What if he is truly hungry at 4 or so?  Another thing that makes it hard is that if I bf I obviously can't see how much he is getting at that 4:00 or so waking.  Oh, btw, I have tried just feeding on one side to give a light feed to tide him over to 7:00 and the same senerio happens.  Maybe I should just start giving him a bottle to see how much he takes?
confusing!!  help me get on EASY!!!
thank you!!   

[Samuel's mum]

Do you mind if I move this to the EASY board as I think you'll get the right kind of responses there?

 

[CJF]

thanks
i originally posted it there and the moderator moved it here.

[rebecaq]

Hi Carolyn,

I wanted to drop you a note to say I've seen this and will answer you as soon as ds is in bed 

- Beca

[Samuel's mum]

Whoops! Sorry!
Tell me a bit more about your feeding. How are you balancing using a bottle vs. using bf? Is it ebm in the bottle or formula? And do you mind me asking your history in using the bottle as it might help explain what might be going on.
If it's formula you might want to check out the mixed feeding thread on the bottle-feeding board. 8oz is an enormous amount of bm (the quantities they drink of bm is less than formula because it's absorbed more effectively and has a higher fat content) so I'm guessing you are mixed feeding? It might also make a difference as to what time of day you are pumping (if you are). Milk pumped earlier in the day often has a higher fat content so he might need less.

If you start using just a bottle to measure his feeds you may find it difficult to maintain your milk supply. There are other ways to see if he's getting enough like checking enough wet nappies (6 in 24 hours) or even weighing him before and after a feed if you really want to know.

Anyway - just give me a better idea of what milk you are using and your feeding/pumping history - thanks.

[CJF]

hi
i am giving him mostly formula when he gets a bottle, sometimes it is EBM.  he was just bf'ing until about a month or so ago and then i started SLOWLY weaning a feeding to exclusive bottle feeding.  i mostly have been pumping in the am (when i do pump).  he definately has enough wet and dirty diapers. he bf's for bedtime and when he wakes in the am or very early am like 4am.  then the rest of the day he gets formula.  my plan was to totally wean at 6 months, until then i want to keep bf'ing those 2 or 3 times.  however, there have been several times when my ds would refuse to bf and wanted the bottle.
now this morning went much better.  he woke about 4:15, i bf on one side and he went back to sleep until 7:15-ish.  i gave him 8 oz. of formula at 8:00 and he drank the whole thing.  then he was ready for a nap about 8:45.  so hopefully the rest of the day goes smooth with the feedings and naps.  i am just confused when i bf because i think he takes a full feeding and then he is humgry a short time later or i think i am giving a light feeding (like at 4 am to get him through 'til 7) and he doesn't want to eat much then.  today, i waited a little while after waking so maybe that helped???
i did know about the bm/formula quantities, but i didn't know about the time of day and pumping and fat content.  thanks.
so i guess my next question is...if ds wakes again around 4-ish and eats then wakes again for the day at 7:00-ish and doesn't want to eat or eats VERY little how do i go about the rest of EASY becasue then he will want to nap right when he is hungry?  i would LOVE to get on a somewhat predictable schedule!! 
also, he hasn't been napping the greatest either...about 30-45 minutes with a 2 hour nap here and there but i suppose that is another post.
thanks for your help

[Samuel's mum]

It does sound as though waiting a little while after waking helps. I've heard that before.

It's a possibility that your supply is reducing so perhaps he isn't taking as much as he once did from the breast. Some people manage to maintain a couple of feeds a day no problem but for some inexplicable reason not everyone can and supply starts to dwindle. If you'd really like to keep the bedtime feed you could pump after the feed to increase quantities of hindmilk that your body produces. If you want to work towards total weaning then perhaps offer breast first but then finish off with a bottle.

[rebecaq]

Hi Carolyn, sorry it took me so long to answer you. Ds thought crib parties were fun last night and would just not settle! Aaaaah, milestones!

I think the best thing to do is to try to merge the early am feed with breakfast. Do this by frst trying to hold him off as long as possible and by offer less and less milk until he jsut doesn;t need it or he can hold off till 7.  I think once he starts getting rid of the early morning feed his other ones should start to fall more into place.

When you say you top him off at 7, is that am or pm?

Do you cluster feed or DF?

Can you post what your whole day looks like? The more information I have the better I can help you 

[CJF]

yeah, i think my milk supply is dwindling and he is not getting as much milk as before.  over the weekend i was gone from my ds and my dh fed him formula bottles and the little guy slept until 6:30.  he probably got full feeds with the bottle as apposed to my boobie. 

when i say top him off at 7, i meant 7 am.  here is what a typical day looks like, although it is hard to nail down specific times.  that is why i am trying to get on EASY.  this is a rough estimate on a good day....

4-6:30am  wake and eat--BF (if it is earlier than 6:30 i will send him back to sleep--it is usually more in the 4-5 area) (i have been trying to do a light feed here so he is hungry at 7-ish but that is hard when BF'ing)

7:00/7:30 wake for the day (give 8 oz. bottle somewhere from wake time until 8:00)  (usually doesn't take much if anything)  today he did--8 oz!!  (i have tried BF'ing at this time and he either refuses or he doesn't take much)

activity time

8:30/9:00 nap  (he is only napping about 45 minutes)
wake from nap--i will try to extend nap--no luck
activity
nap again (then the day starts getting all messed up because of his eating and napping--sometimes if he doesn't take much for his "breakfast" bottle he will want to eat around nap time and again everything is thrown off--)

11:00/1:00 eat (8 oz bottle--sometimes drinks it all sometimes only 4 oz) ( big range in time because of the morning eating thing)

activity

1:00/2:00 nap (45 minutes)
try to extend--once in a while it will work (once in a while will take a 2 hour nap here)
activity
another nap to get to next feed

3:00/5:00 eat (8 oz bottle--sometimes takes whole bottle sometimes not)  (in fact the eat times have been so messed up he's even had this bottle at 6:00/6:30)
activity
nap--short one to get to bedtime

bath 7:00
eat 7:15/7:30 (BF)
bed 8:00/8:30

i hope this makes sense.  it sure becomes a whacky schedule as the day goes on.  i can't wait for a little more consistency here.
no dream feed or cluster feed ( i don't think he would do well with cluster feed becasue it seems as if he needs to be really hungry to eat or he will "snack" and then the vicous cycle starts like the morning.) (i never started the dreamfeed because i was scared that he would wake for burps and spitups.  when he eats he needs to stay upright for at least 20 minutes to let the food settle.)
i think what i need to do, as you said, is try to hold him off from eating until closer to 7:00.
thanks for your help

[CJF]

i forgot to mention that ds can fall alseep on his own which is a BIG YEAH!!!!!  this is new as of this week!!!   (although he doesn't nap very long)  but this should help with EASY.

[rebecaq]

That's great that he's falling asleep on his own! 

Ok, it sounds to me like you may be having supply issues. Do a yield to see how much you are producing and that may shed some light on the subject. I would also try a cluster feed. That way he gets an extra bulk of calories before bedtime which will help streching the 4/5 feed to 7.

Let me know how your yield goes so we can see how to fix the early waking problem from there